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  1. #21
    The "right" answer is that it depends on what kind of damage the encounter features.

    For something like Stone Guard it'd be:

    Crit > Exp = Hit > Haste > Dodge > Mastery

    Whereas for Gara'jal it's more:

    Dodge >= Mastery > Crit > Hit = Exp > Haste

    It's up to you to analyze where the damage is coming from and how best to handle it for you and your raid.

  2. #22
    My prio is Stamina > Dodge > Mastery > Crit > Hit/Expertise > Agility > Haste and it's been working very well for me so far. I take far less damage than our Blood DK tank.

  3. #23
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duckgirl View Post
    My prio is Stamina > Dodge > Mastery > Crit > Hit/Expertise > Agility > Haste and it's been working very well for me so far. I take far less damage than our Blood DK tank.

    this is the prio that I am using as well.

    I am using unglyphed FR and I have healed myself for upwards of 200k in raids. With healing/spirit an issue this early in the tier, I look at the extra heals as being a sort of assist for the healers. Giving them a bit of a break.

    On Stone guards last week i pumped out 22k HPS as the tank.

    As far as RPS, all you really need for a good up time on SD is 6.69 RPS. hit and exp help out with having an over abundance of rage, but with the 3 charges on SD the extra rage will really just be dumped into FR or a maul or two. And if you are having an issue with meeting dps checks early on it helps with squeezing out that extra dps that might help you guys put it over.

    Using FR and SD is also dependent to me on the kind of fight you are using. SD for Phsyical damage fights, like the Spirit bender where you want as much dodge as possible when you are vodoo'd to try and mitigate as much damage to the other two people connected to you. And magic heavy fights would call for more FR for self healing (or increased healing if glyphed)

    But then again, it's really IMO in how you feel most comfortable as a tank, and how your healers feel in healing you.

    (chucknurish -shattered halls)

  4. #24
    so basically, nobody really knows :P

    I guess it really does boil down to 3 things:
    1. How do you like playing as a tank? Do you like to avoid damage and risk having spikes, or soak damage and risk being a mana sponge?
    2. How do your healers want you to play as a tank?
    3. What is best for your gear level.

    I would say at lower gear levels (e.g. my own), stamina and mastery are probably better as it's more predictable damage (and therefore healers can use lower cost heals more often on you). As gearing goes up, I can see hit/exp caps and crit being very useful, as the armor and stamina goes up considerably too (I use paragon's tank compared to my gear as an example, he has base 4k more stamina, 14% extra crit, about 3k more armor, and is hit/exp capped (although he has 1% less dodge than I do due to racial)).

    I think if I carried on prioritising stamina and mastery at his gear levels (pretty much full epic) I'd be pushing 650k hp raid buffed and probably >90k armour. I just don't see that being needed, and the extra dps and rage generation from hit/exp/crit being much more useful.

    Also, I found my rage generation was much better after speccing into soul of the forest (or w/e its called) for extra rage on mangle. Sure it's a dps loss vs incarnation, but my savage defense has much greater up time now. As I get hit/exp capped and push crit, I'll probably drop that for incarnation again for burn/hero phases.

    I think Blizzard has done quite well on the whole with this method of tanking, as it really does allow you more versaility in whether to push passive or active mitigation, and whether to go for survival or dps stats. I guess in the end though, it's not that much of a choice if dps stats actually become survival stats (which we are all saying they are or will become at higher gear levels). It definitely be simpler though if we just used agi > all again

    edit: even on magic /unmitigated damage intensive fights, I see dps stats being better than survival stats/stamina, as you get much more rage for more frenzied regenning. even 1 low-rage heal with 100k vengeance on you can outheal any loss in stamina.

  5. #25
    stamina top prio again? ooo errr?

  6. #26
    I think I need to try running unglyhped FR, 38k before vengence is nothing to sneeze at, 22k hps is pushing what I think the 40% buff could gain the healers.

    When solo last night I was seeing it leader of the pack hit seemingly every 6 seconds, any +sta will increase that healing as well. Seems you don't need much crit to get it to work though, 6 seconds you should have 2+ auto and 4 reg attacks, so over 15% crit should give 100% uptime unless RNG really screws you. So crit/sta stacking seems best for self healing.

    Crit is a 2 roll system right? NO! I was wrong about this, so hit/exp to the cap are basicly as good as crit, with the advantage of being threat stats as well as rage stats.

    With most rage coming from Mangle and Crits, does anyone see haste as worthwhile keeping? It might be better if we could hit more special abilities, but right now it seems like it should be reforged to anything else, even with the buff we get. You would need a massive amount of haste to get auto-attacks hitting noticibly faster right?
    Last edited by ajanu; 2012-10-10 at 08:31 PM. Reason: Fixed mistakes.

  7. #27
    I don't know about you guys, but ever since the hp/healing changes in cataclysm, I feel like tanks simply don't die randomly anymore, and by randomly I mean you could easily explain every tank death due to mistakes, being out of range, or healers being oom and not due to a chain of unavoided/unmitigated hits that just crushed the tank too fast for heals.

    With that in mind - what's the one thing that almost every success is hampered by in raids? That's right, dps.

    Especially with the vengeance change, tanks are easily able to match dps on the meters if not surpass them. I posit that dps should be the #1 priority right now for any tank, which means reforging for hit/exp cap then going crit after, which just so happens to give us maximum rage to avoid more stuff and self heal.
    Last edited by kaiadam; 2012-10-10 at 06:25 PM.

  8. #28
    Mechagnome bloodwulf's Avatar
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    Not saying i am a top end theory crafter at all, but here is my setup:
    Hit/Exp both to 7.5 > Mastery > Dodge > Crit > Agi > Stam.

    I have only got a few attempts in 10 man, but on the Stone Guardians i was taking literally half as much damage as our dk tank. Albeit he was slightly lower gear (approximately 2 itemlevels difference i believe).

    I am considering trying a slightly different build that switches the values of Crit and Mastery, but i really have nothing other than heroics to test it out with at this time.
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  9. #29
    I'm all for migation, and if you are to: Stam>Mastery(Armor)>Dodge.

    Dont care much for expertise/hit caps, they come from gear if there are any on the item, not a prio. They are really only threat stats, now that crit is much better for rage generation Id say, trough all helps.
    One reason for WoW decline I often hear is that its an old game and naturally people get bored with it. But TV is much older and people still watch that. Surely if a thing you once enjoyed keept staying fun, you would still use it?

  10. #30
    Mechagnome bloodwulf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightelfsb View Post
    I'm all for migation, and if you are to: Stam>Mastery(Armor)>Dodge.

    Dont care much for expertise/hit caps, they come from gear if there are any on the item, not a prio. They are really only threat stats, now that crit is much better for rage generation Id say, trough all helps.
    Except that is the wrong mindset with the new active mitigation system. They are not threat stats, hit/expertise/crit all directly increase your rage generation which directly modifies the possible uptime of Savage Defense, and the amount of times you can use Frenzied Regen. That's why we are having this discussion, because we know that these stats have significant value for us, we are just unsure how much at this time, and what is the optimal values.
    "Allons-y!" - David Tennant - 10th Doctor.
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  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodwulf View Post
    Not saying i am a top end theory crafter at all, but here is my setup:
    Hit/Exp both to 7.5 > Mastery > Dodge > Crit > Agi > Stam.

    I have only got a few attempts in 10 man, but on the Stone Guardians i was taking literally half as much damage as our dk tank. Albeit he was slightly lower gear (approximately 2 itemlevels difference i believe).

    I am considering trying a slightly different build that switches the values of Crit and Mastery, but i really have nothing other than heroics to test it out with at this time.
    imo dodge is not a good stat to aim for, or reforge or gem to, as it DRs with savage defence and you cannot get anywhere near a decent dodge rate without sacrificing too much.

  12. #32
    Mechagnome bloodwulf's Avatar
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    Yeah, ive started to realize that, i might change my stat weights to value crit>mastery>dodge after hit/expertise and give that a few trial runs.
    "Allons-y!" - David Tennant - 10th Doctor.
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  13. #33
    I'm doing hit = exp (to cap) / crit / stam / dodge / haste

    Pretty much I want as much rage generation as possible so that I can SD/FR (depending on incoming damage type) whenever I need to. I'm not a tank that pushes the progression limits, my 10 man will raid once a week once everyone gets to 90 so I'm not going to be regemming or reforging for every fight. My theory is, it doesn't matter what kind of damage I'm taking, if I'm generating rage I have the tools to handle incoming damage.

  14. #34
    i would love for someone to properly do the math / theory on this and show their workings, i will level my druid as an alt ( has been my main since vanilla, but I've switched to my priest. Will level my druid after and see how the stats weigh up in raid environments. I was always a fan of a bit ole health pool.

  15. #35
    Stood in the Fire valiorik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kujako View Post
    True enough, the 38k is sitting in town.
    Usually I see average FR heals of 120k - 170k in raids. For example yesterday it was 162k average:
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...t9b/details/0/

    Elegon fight I am my own main healer with 140k average FR: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=5686&e=6245

    And that's average! Most of the time I am using RF with 20 - 50 rage. My algorithm of using it is simple: if I am hit by anything for more than 100k I use it no matter how much rage I have. If I am 80+ rage and full health I use something else. So far it works perfect!

    Dodge and mastery at this moment is complete waste imho.
    Last edited by valiorik; 2012-10-11 at 12:30 PM.
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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by triggy89 View Post
    i would love for someone to properly do the math / theory on this and show their workings, i will level my druid as an alt ( has been my main since vanilla, but I've switched to my priest. Will level my druid after and see how the stats weigh up in raid environments. I was always a fan of a bit ole health pool.
    I believe our stamina takes on a slightly different role in MoP compared to what we're used to.

    Sure, there's no more max Vengeance cap based upon our HP, that's easy enough. Also, in the current released raid content, I think it's safe to say there are no real tank killer mechanics (think Impale on Madness of Deathwing mechanics)... therefore, our use of stamina isn't towards surviving one big hit.

    Blizz has finally designed raid content to fit their image they described back in the beginning of Cataclysm: tanks shouldn't really be concerned about getting one/two-shot every second, but they should be concerned about minimizing the overall damage they take. The role of stamina is now to extend how many "papercuts" we can take before a healer needs to react or will have issues with mana and/or keeping up. If we delve a little deeper, the role of FR can impact how much stamina you really want, in conjunction with how fast you can generate rage. A simplified version is imagining that as the Guardian tank, you are your own healer, and the amount of stamina you wish to aim for depends on how fast you can pump out FR heals to keep up with the damage with the size of our healthpools.

    However, I will say stamina likely plays a bigger role for Guardians than other tanking classes since the situations which require FR are likely reactive healing situations. While other tank classes can absorb/reduce incoming damage with their active mitigation abilities, we either avoid it or heal up after the damage is done. Sure, mastery/armor helps increase our EH to deal with such situations, but there are already situations in current raiding content where our mastery/armor does next to nothing to help us. There's a reason why Blizz changed FR from a HoT to an instant heal on the beta: situations which required us to use FR showed a HoT wasn't enough to deal with reactive damage with the size of our healthpools.
    Last edited by exochaft; 2012-10-11 at 12:47 PM.
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  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    I believe our stamina takes on a slightly different role in MoP compared to what we're used to..

    However, I will say stamina likely plays a bigger role for Guardians than other tanking classes since the situations which require FR are likely reactive healing situations. While other tank classes can absorb/reduce incoming damage with their active mitigation abilities, we either avoid it or heal up after the damage is done. Sure, mastery/armor helps increase our EH to deal with such situations, but there are already situations in current raiding content where our mastery/armor does next to nothing to help us. There's a reason why Blizz changed FR from a HoT to an instant heal on the beta: situations which required us to use FR showed a HoT wasn't enough to deal with reactive damage with the size of our healthpools.
    This is true enough, but the fact remains that there aren't a lot of bosses with large incoming tank damage. When I was doing 25M Garajal, doing my normal cd rotation I was taking so little damage that I was overflowing with rage and I couldn't spend it on anything besides maul because I was doing savage defense on cd and I would never drop enough to have frenzied regen not overheal.

    I can't speak for the rest of the raid as my guild has been going through some roster changes that been slowing us down.
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  18. #38
    I've picked up a one or 2 epic pieces, rest 463 blues, and I reforged out of mastery and into hit/exp cap and crit. Currently sitting on hit/exp both capped, and crit around 28% self-buffed in bear form. I noticed I was taking what appeared to be significantly less damage, and significantly increased DPS (although these were only in heroics and LFR).

    Will be interesting to see how I fare next raid on Stone Guardians again, as last time I did around 69k dps. I'm hoping to push 90k this time with glyph of maul (didn't have it last time) and my new stats.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Slonah View Post
    I'm doing hit = exp (to cap) / crit / stam / dodge / haste

    Pretty much I want as much rage generation as possible so that I can SD/FR (depending on incoming damage type) whenever I need to. I'm not a tank that pushes the progression limits, my 10 man will raid once a week once everyone gets to 90 so I'm not going to be regemming or reforging for every fight. My theory is, it doesn't matter what kind of damage I'm taking, if I'm generating rage I have the tools to handle incoming damage.
    This is exactly what I will switching to once I get home. I've been sticking with the old thought of more avoidance/mitigation, but I'm really onboard with the idea of more rage=more FR. Yellow sockets get crit, blues get either hit/crit or stam/crit and red will get agi/crit.
    I can teach you how to play, but I can't fix stupid.

  20. #40
    I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for the feedback.

    Its great to know im not the only one out there wracking my brain over how to best be a bear in this expac. So far I have went hit / exp caped and the rest is going into Crit. I will try this out in our normal 10 man tonight and see how it goes. Im hopeing with loads of rage and being able to constantly use FR when needed instead of SD on the first two bossess I should notice a huge improvment compared to last week.

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