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  1. #1
    The Patient Matutin's Avatar
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    Quick and easy MOP guide to Rogues.

    Hello fellow stabbers and shadow-steppers, I had some free time and wanted to put some info together in an easy to read way. I'll try to keep this updated as much as I can.

    Please keep in mind that this is currently a Work in Progress and will be updated frequently. Please post any suggestion or PM me. I'll happily listen to it.


    Combat
    Rotation
    Buffs to track: Slice and Dice. [Shallow/Moderate/Deep] Insight.
    Cast it with whatever CP if duration <2 secs. Be aware of your Insight. You will be doing 30% more dmg at Deep Insight.

    Debuffs to track: Revealing Strike. Rupture
    It is a dps gain to use Rupture as long as it will tick for its full duration and you are not cleaving. Dont worry about its uptime, just use it at 5CP if not present. It is a dps gain to "pool" CP via Anticipation to use them during Deep Insight. You dont need to have 100% uptime on RvS debuff, as long as you always have the debuff when you use SS. For example, let RvS drop and pool some energy, then RvS and SS right after.

    Builders: Sinister Strike. Revealing Strike. Fan of Knives.
    You will be using SS as your sole CP generator unless you need to refresh RvS debuff. Swap to FOK when targets > 5.

    Finishers: Eviscerate. Slice and Dice. Rupture. Crimson Tempest.
    Keep SnD at 99+% uptime, always cast Eviscerate at 5CP. Use Rupture at 5CP if not present.

    CDs: Adrenaline Rush. Shadow Blades. Killing Spree.
    Macro AR and SB and always use them together. Always use KS before AR+SB since it will reduce the CD of KS by quite some time.

    Extract:
    Open with Ambush. Keep SnD up all the time. Keep RvS debuff all the time. Use Evis at 5CP if SnD duration > 4 secs or so. Macro AR+SB, use them as soon as you can. Always use KS before AR, since you will using a lot of Eviscerate during AR+SB (and it will lower the CD of KS).


    Stat Weight:
    Agility > 7.5% Expertise = 7.5% Hit > Haste > Mastery > Crit > 26.5% Hit



    Source. Note: somewhat outdated, havent found a newest one.

    Gear
    You will always use a slow weapon on your mainhand. You can choose either using a fast or a slow weapon on your offhand.

    Talents:
    Shadow focus boost dps by a tiny bit. So does Preparation on a 0 movement fight, but on any non-static fight, Shadow Step will be better than Preparation.

    Glyphs:
    The only one mandatory is Adrenaline Rush one. It is pretty usefull!

    Spec core mechanics:
    Combat Potency: Your offhand attacks and Main Gauche hits, have a chance to give you 15 energy. The amount of energy scales with the weapon speed, so a slower weapon will give you more energy. This is why you can use 2 slow weapons as combat.

    Restless Blades: Everytime you use either Eviscerate, Rupture or Crimson Tempest, you will lower the CD on Adrenaline Rush, Killing Spree, Shadow Blades and Sprint for 2 secs for each CP. This is mostly why you want to use Killing spree before AR+SB, since that you will using Eviscerate a lot during that phase, thus lowering the CD on KS by quite some time.

    Bandit's Guile: Everytime you use SS or RvS you will start gaining "Insight". This is a buff you can track, it goes from "Shallow Insight" (+10% dmg) to "Moderate Insight" (+20% dmg) to "Deep Insight" (+30% dmg). This is very important and you should learn how to manage it, since it will increase your dps by quite a lot.

    -°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°



    Assasination
    Rotation
    Buffs to track: Slice and Dice. Envenom
    You will only need to cast Slice and Dice once per fight (unless you have a long downtime), since that 5CP Envenom will refresh the buff. Try to maximice Envenom buff uptime, even if you gotta use Envenom with <5 CP (but never with less than 4CP).

    Debuffs to track: Rupture/Garrote
    Always have either Rupture or Garrote on the target. Always use 5CP Rupture.

    Builders: Mutilate. Dispatch. Fan of Knives.
    You will be using Mutilate to build CP unless the target is below 35% or you have a Blindside proc. If so, use Dispatch. Swap to FOK when targets > 5.

    Finishers: Envenom. Slice and Dice. Rupture. Crimson Tempest.
    Dont worry too much about Slice and Dice, since it will be refreshed by Envenom. Always use 5CP Rupture. Try to cast Envenom as much as you can, but always with 4 or 5 CP. Use CT when targets > 5.

    CDs: Vendetta. Shadow Blades. Vanish
    Only use Vendetta if you have a prolongued uptime on the same target. Always try to use Vendetta and Shadow Blades at the same time, but never delay them too much.

    Extract:
    Open with Mutilate from stealth. Keep a very high uptime on Rupture or Garrote. Always use 5CP Rupture. Use Dispatch if Blindside procs or target HP < 35%, use Mutilate otherwise. Always use 4/5CP Envenom, try to maximice Envenom buff uptime.


    Stat Weight:
    Agility > 7.5% hit > Mastery > 7.5% Expertise > Haste > Crit > 26.5% Hit


    Source. Note: somewhat outdated, havent found a newest one.

    Gear
    Assasination always use 2 daggers.

    Talents:
    Most of the talents dont provide a DPS boost. Shadow focus boost dps by a tiny bit. So does Preparation on a 0 movement fight.

    Glyphs:
    Glyph of Vendetta is a dps gain if you can have 100% uptime for its duration.

    Spec core mechanics:
    **Upcoming**



    -°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°-°



    Subtlety
    Rotation
    Buffs to track: Slice and Dice. Master of Subtlety.
    Keep Slice and Dice at very high uptime. Keep an eye on Master of Subtlety, it gives you +10% dmg.

    Debuffs to track: Rupture/Garrote, Hemorrhage, Find Weakness
    Always have either Rupture or Garrote on the target. Always keep Hemorrhage bleed on the target. Try to maximice Find Weakness uptime.

    Builders: Backstab. Hemorrhage. Fan of Knives. Ambush. Honor among Thieves
    If you can stand behind the target always use Backstab. Otherwise use Hemorrhage. Use Fan of Knives when targets > 5. Only use Ambush during Shadow Dance to build CP. HAT will give you 1CP everytime someone in your raids crits (this has a 2 second CD).

    Finishers: Eviscerate. Slice and Dice. Rupture. Crimson Tempest.
    Always use Eviscerate at 5CP. Always keep Slice and Dice up. Always keep Rupture on the target.

    CDs: Shadow Dance. Premeditation. Shadow Blades. Vanish
    Use Shadow Dance as soon as you can to maximice Find Weakness uptime. Use Premeditation during Shadow Dance. Use Shadow Blades on CD. Use Vanish + Premeditation + Ambush.

    Extract:
    This spec focuses mostly on controled bursts via Shadow Dance. A good tip is to pool energy before using Shadow Dance, since that Ambush costs quite some energy.


    Stat Priority:
    Agility > 7.5% Expertise = 7.5% Hit > Haste > Mastery > Crit > 26.5% Hit


    Source. Note: somewhat outdated, havent found a newest one.

    Gear
    Subtlety always use 2 daggers.

    Talents:
    Most of the talents dont provide a DPS boost. Subterfuge extends Find Weakness and Master of Subtlety. Preparation is probably a dps gain.

    Glyphs:
    Pretty much nothing specific for Sub.

    Spec core mechanics:
    **Upcoming**

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-09 at 08:34 PM ----------

    Last edited by Matutin; 2012-10-10 at 05:30 PM.
    My Rogue

    Veni, vidi, vici.

    I like MoP now c:

  2. #2
    Thanks for this. Wish I'd seen it before posting my own thread just now. Doh.
    "Lordaeron belongs to the Forsaken. Always and forever!"

    Perfection is so horribly dull, don't you think?

  3. #3
    So many typos. Also, a lot of the information specifically in the Subtlety section is incorrect/out of date. For instance:

    Eviscerate no longer refreshes Rupture
    No mention of Hemo weaving
    Nobody says anything about "buffing" Rupture; it should not be a focus. Rupture is important because of SV (which you don't mention once). Additionally, FW will not buff Rupture as it already ignores armor
    Subterfuge is best for Subt, not Shadow Focus, because it extends the duration of FW and MoS. Energy should be pooled for an Ambush at the very end of Subterfuge
    Prep is a decent DPS boost; however, ShS is superior for any fight where it will net you just 3-4s of additional uptime. BoS should rarely be used (I found it very helpful on Will, though)

    The other specs are not 100% accurate either, but I'm not going to run down every inaccuracy here. EJ has much clearer, quicker, and easier guides for each spec. Nice try, though.

  4. #4
    The Patient Matutin's Avatar
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    Yeah sorry about the typos, I'll try to fix them.

    Regarding sub, I havent found an updated guide yet, so I used what I knew about the spec from Cata. I'll update it and delete any mention to refreshing Rupture.

    The idea behind this thread was to put some easy-to-read, easy-to-understand info regarding each spec, not a very deep guide.

    If anyone see any mistake, please point it out, I'll fix it as soon as I can.

    Also, I'll update the "Spec core mechanics" section to include specific info about each spec, for example, why combat uses a slow main hand or why sub needs to have a bleed efect on the target.
    My Rogue

    Veni, vidi, vici.

    I like MoP now c:

  5. #5
    General suggestions:

    Don't worry about EP weights; just give a stat priority (agi > 7.5% hit = 7.5% exp > haste > mastery > crit for Combat). I think those are cata weights anyways.
    Give a rotation rundown, then go into specifics. Currently the rotation is unclear and specifics are spread out.
    Make it more clear that ShS is superior to Prep on any fight where it will net you just a few seconds more uptime and that BoS is bad except in very unique circumstances.
    All of our buffs/debuffs can be applied at 2s or less remaining and the extra time will roll over into the new buff/debuff. Env may only have 1s of clip protection, though.
    It's generally accepted that 8+ targets are needed to go into full AoE rotation mode.

    Combat:

    5CP Ruptures are worth using. It's better DPE. Rupture uptime is not important; it's just slightly better than Eviscerate as long as it can tick fully and you're not BF cleaving.
    Something about gaming Anticipation for more finishers at higher Insight would be nice. I just set up my UI to be able to do this more easily, and my DPS took a noticeable leap.
    Mention something more about Restless Blades.

    Assassination:

    5CP Ruptures are not necessary. Most of its damage comes from VW, which doesn't care about CPs; refresh with what you have for 100% uptime. Gaming Anticipation for this is very nice, but a little more advanced and requires some serious time with the spec.
    Open with Mut, not Ambush. It has 2 chances to proc poisons, a 30% chance to proc Blindside, and comparable damage.
    DO NOT OPEN WITH GARROTE. Garrote and Rupture VW no longer stack, and Rupture ticks every 2s, while Garrote is every 3s. Each ability on its own does not do enough damage to warrant use without VW.
    Always do 5CP Env. Anticipation will catch previously wasted CPs now.
    Do not clip the Env.
    Pool energy before Env so that you can land all your builders inside the Env buff.
    Do not delay SB for use with Vendetta if it will result in a loss of total uses during the encounter. The current language suggests that you hold SB for Vendetta every time, which is not optimal.

    I already wrote a bit about Subt.

    I didn't hit everything here, but do some more research and you'll be able to produce a much better guide. ElitistJerks is fantastic; go there before Noxxic (eww) or Icy-Veins (meh) or anywhere else.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    General suggestions:

    Don't worry about EP weights; just give a stat priority (agi > 7.5% hit = 7.5% exp > haste > mastery > crit for Combat). I think those are cata weights anyways.
    Give a rotation rundown, then go into specifics. Currently the rotation is unclear and specifics are spread out.
    Make it more clear that ShS is superior to Prep on any fight where it will net you just a few seconds more uptime and that BoS is bad except in very unique circumstances.
    All of our buffs/debuffs can be applied at 2s or less remaining and the extra time will roll over into the new buff/debuff. Env may only have 1s of clip protection, though.
    It's generally accepted that 8+ targets are needed to go into full AoE rotation mode.

    Combat:

    5CP Ruptures are worth using. It's better DPE. Rupture uptime is not important; it's just slightly better than Eviscerate as long as it can tick fully and you're not BF cleaving.
    Something about gaming Anticipation for more finishers at higher Insight would be nice. I just set up my UI to be able to do this more easily, and my DPS took a noticeable leap.
    Mention something more about Restless Blades.

    Assassination:

    5CP Ruptures are not necessary. Most of its damage comes from VW, which doesn't care about CPs; refresh with what you have for 100% uptime. Gaming Anticipation for this is very nice, but a little more advanced and requires some serious time with the spec.
    Open with Mut, not Ambush. It has 2 chances to proc poisons, a 30% chance to proc Blindside, and comparable damage.
    DO NOT OPEN WITH GARROTE. Garrote and Rupture VW no longer stack, and Rupture ticks every 2s, while Garrote is every 3s. Each ability on its own does not do enough damage to warrant use without VW.
    Always do 5CP Env. Anticipation will catch previously wasted CPs now.
    Do not clip the Env.
    Pool energy before Env so that you can land all your builders inside the Env buff.
    Do not delay SB for use with Vendetta if it will result in a loss of total uses during the encounter. The current language suggests that you hold SB for Vendetta every time, which is not optimal.

    I already wrote a bit about Subt.

    I didn't hit everything here, but do some more research and you'll be able to produce a much better guide. ElitistJerks is fantastic; go there before Noxxic (eww) or Icy-Veins (meh) or anywhere else.
    A few things are not 100% correct here, especially at the assasination part. You will always want to use a 5cp rupture, not because of VW, but because of Relentless Strikes. Assa is already greatly energy starved that extra 25 will be welcome. With how anticipation works you won't ever have to worry about 4 cp finishers, just use one more mutilate and then finish.
    Opening with garrote is not a bad idea, as you will have VW up on the target while you get SnD and a 5cp rupture up.

    About combat and gaming Anticipation. It's just that as long as you have plenty of time left on SnD you can just go to 5+5 cp in green,yellow insight and then double evis or evis and rupture straight up in yellow,red. The best is when you can sort of roll that 5 anticipation charge through the insight ranks,
    example:at 0 insight 5 cp to green, then 5 to yellow (10cp), evis (or rupture), 5 cp to red double evis etc...

  7. #7
    I'm skeptical about RvS acting like a DoT. The idea of DoT refreshing is that the 0.00s tick is added to the start of the refresh. RvS obviously doesn't tick, so what makes you think the last 2s of the debuff is added to the start of the refresh?

  8. #8
    For Sub, to make the transition between Combat/Sub easier, I use a dagger/fist. I simply swap the two weapons for the different specs depending on the fight.

    But are 2 daggers much better than Dagger in MH, fist/sword/axe in OH for Sub?

  9. #9
    Try to maximice Envenom buff uptime, even if you gotta use Envenom with <5 CP (but never with less than 4CP).
    With the current energy regen this is nearly impossible. Be glad if you can keep rupture up all the time.

  10. #10
    Combat: RvS doesn't need to be at 100%, and it's a dps loss to clip it and aim to 100% uptime. If it's dropping, just pool energy until you have enough to put RvS up AND do a SS immediately after. Doing a RvS and then waiting for energy for SS is a dps loss.

    Assassination: with current energy regen Anticipation drops a lot of its power - it's good for execute phase though. Waiting for an additional Mutilate if you are at 4CP results in less Envenom uptime. Maybe with more haste and better gear we can get a full use of the talent.

    Sublety: pretty much correct.

    EPs are a cool info, but they are actually not fixed numbers - they change depending on your gear. Better to give a stat priority.

  11. #11
    Immortal Ryme's Avatar
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    What Coldkil said about combat is true, aiming for 100% uptime will probably end up being a loss. When it's about to fall off, pool energy (I'm pooling to 60-70 to avoid capping, but you're mileage may vary) and hit RvS again.

    The purpose of this is so you'll get more benefit from each RvS as if you hit it and put yourself in an energy starved position, you're wasting RvS uptime and will have to put it up again later.

    So, you want it up, but for as little time as possible in effect.

    -----------

    I'm also going to suggest that any fight that contains adds makes Glyph of Deadly momentum mandatory, whilst you have a small chance of getting the killing blow in your raid, the chance is there and does exist meaning a significant dps gain to be had.
    I am the lucid dream
    Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh


  12. #12
    OK,

    That explains why I am doing less than what I am capable of: I was trying to keep rupture going in my Combat spec.
    Where the hell did I read it was worth it to use rupture in MoP?
    If I read everything here/on EJ, the rotation is the same as in Cata, with the only difference of RvS...

    Man that will make my rotation a lot smoother: trying to keep SnD and Rupture up without cliping it too much was a pain with the current energy regen level.
    Last edited by patcherke; 2012-10-10 at 11:16 AM.
    People can be whoever they choose to be on the internet - It is strange that so many people choose to be stupid.

    every time I see someone mentioning the word "rouge" I get the urge to say "yes, we are overpowdered"...

  13. #13
    Immortal Ryme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patcherke View Post
    OK,

    That explains why I am doing less than what I am capable of: I was trying to keep rupture going in my Combat spec.
    Where the hell did I read it was worth it to use rupture in MoP?
    If I read everything here/on EJ, the rotation is the same as in Cata, with the only difference of RvS...

    Man that will make my rotation a lot smoother: trying to keep SnD and Rupture up without cliping it too much was a pain with the current energy regen level.
    It is a gain, it's been a gain every single time I've done it. It's not that hard to keep it going really, a couple of times you get annoying double or triple drop offs, but you should be good to get it up with a decent % uptime.
    I am the lucid dream
    Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh


  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    I'm also going to suggest that any fight that contains adds makes Glyph of Deadly momentum mandatory, whilst you have a small chance of getting the killing blow in your raid, the chance is there and does exist meaning a significant dps gain to be had.
    Last time I checked (Spine heroic), raid mobs did not proc Deadly Momentum. Did they change this?

  15. #15
    You shouldn't open with Ambush for both Combat and Assassination. The damage isn't great and opening with RvS is superior (also starts building your Insights faster). For Assassination opening with Mutilate is the best thing to do to get your poisons running faster and have a chance for Blindside to proc.

  16. #16
    Immortal Ryme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fae View Post
    Last time I checked (Spine heroic), raid mobs did not proc Deadly Momentum. Did they change this?
    I'll need to verify it, I've noted that some mobs do not (usually the ones that spawn in abundance), but some definitely do.
    I am the lucid dream
    Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh


  17. #17
    I cant get on Wowhead to check, but is mutilate still limited to daggers? or can be it other weapons now? im sure i saw a rogue with 2 fists mutilating?

    if so, how does it line up compared to daggers

  18. #18
    Immortal Ryme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raldazzar View Post
    I cant get on Wowhead to check, but is mutilate still limited to daggers? or can be it other weapons now? im sure i saw a rogue with 2 fists mutilating?

    if so, how does it line up compared to daggers
    It still requires daggers.
    I am the lucid dream
    Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh


  19. #19
    Finally since i have some time, i'm finishing to fix my guide for MoP. All data is out, so it's going well.

    Also messingo with simcraft - while dps seems fine (max theoretic dmg is around 52k with my gear), as combat i'm going to wait around 147 seconds over a 450 seconds fight. It's the 32.6666666666666....% of the time spent waiting.

    "Rogues are fine".

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Raldazzar View Post
    I cant get on Wowhead to check, but is mutilate still limited to daggers? or can be it other weapons now? im sure i saw a rogue with 2 fists mutilating?

    if so, how does it line up compared to daggers
    It requires 2 daggers.


    Someone mentioned sub with dagger/slow combination. You will get more poison procces with dual daggers as far as I know so it should provide more dps.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-10 at 02:05 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Finally since i have some time, i'm finishing to fix my guide for MoP. All data is out, so it's going well.

    Also messingo with simcraft - while dps seems fine (max theoretic dmg is around 52k with my gear), as combat i'm going to wait around 147 seconds over a 450 seconds fight. It's the 32.6666666666666....% of the time spent waiting.

    "Rogues are fine".
    I don't even want to see that number for assasination...

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