The talent system mistake!

[HollerTH]

The only mistake would be if they change the system again.

This system doesn't suck. This system is easy to balance. This system I think is fun. What we have had since TBC was fire and forget talents.... those are not fun at all. At least back in Vanilla/tbc we could play around with hybrid specs that sometimes worked really well.

[Lomak]

I'm sure that they will figure out a way to dumb it down even further.

[HollerTH]

I'm sure that they will figure out a way to dumb it down even further.

I love this argument.... ITS DUMBED DOWENHFKENW:OFJE:L!K@)($_)(U!|RFE

Yeah because everyone using the exact same specs for the same situations because a forum told them to was really thought provoking.

[Shaderas]

They'll give us Path of Titans...

Path of Titans will be "Digital Download our new game TITAN for 59.95!"

[yjmark]

imho - the MoP talent system is just a step in a direction that Blizz wants to go. It will get modified, and I'm sure that by the next expansion, they will change it so that there is a new talent choice at max level. Maybe they will have it so that talents are every 5 levels. Or every 10. Many options.

[Seref]

Path of Titans will be "Digital Download our new game TITAN for 59.95!"

Titan is going to be an MMOFPS from what I understand, completely different unrelated genre. I for one will not be playing it.

Blizz will just make Talent Points after 90 every 5 levels. No one said it HAS to be every 15...
It's something called a curve. <_<

[Ashnazg]

They'll just change it all again next expansion because blizzard jumped the shark long ago.

Because re-visiting and updating obsolete mechanics is jumping the shark.


As far as your question OP: If the talent system stays the way it is (which is unlikely), they can just add talents from 91 to 95 at 1 level intervals. Theres nothing that says it should be given at 15 level intervals :P

[dokhidamo]

Because re-visiting and updating obsolete mechanics is jumping the shark.


As far as your question OP: If the talent system stays the way it is (which is unlikely), they can just add talents from 91 to 95 at 1 level intervals. Theres nothing that says it should be given at 15 level intervals :P

I think this system will be the first one to stick. They can't water out the color cutter any further without removing talents.

[Grocalis]

Yeah because everyone using the exact same specs for the same situations because a forum told them to was really thought provoking.

It's not really even that. To be honest the issue is all psychological.

The issue with the new system is that it, when it comes down to it, none of the talents are really "required", this means players feel like they lost control of making their character more powerful through their own choices, even if those choices were not real ones. The new system adds choice by making each of the talent less mandatory (at least for most of them) and thus they don't feel like they are getting that "choice based" incremental power boost.

Do I agree? Not really, but I can at least see where the issue is coming from. I think the new system is way better then the old one.

[nameuser]

I think they should reduce the lvl cap in the next expansion. Then make outland and northrend same lvl continents so that u can choose between them and do the same with cata zones/pandaria. And then we get talents every 10 level instead.

[mipper]

It's apparent to me that there is a large subset of players that like the "feel" of perceived choice rather than a system that involves actual choice.

This "feel" equates to clicking a button and the next level you either have a new ability or an ability does more -- it creates a more distinct bump in power caused by the user's "decision" when leveling, making the leveling process more rewarding. The only decision involved the order in which mandatory talents were taken.

The current talents are great in that they actually allow customization of a class - but there is less interactivity on the user end while leveling and escapability/cc effects are generally less exciting than increasing damage abilities.

I think the old talent system has a more traditional RPG "feel" for leveling. Additionally, people like evaluating more talents when trying to create builds. The new talents are much better for end game as they provide more variety at level cap and make balancing the game in various phases much more manageable by eliminating variables.

[Lomak]

It's not a talent system, it's a loadout, like a call of duty game.

The argument that everyone looked up builds online is hilarious, because the game was so hard right? Talents were not hard. Does it baffle some of you that multiple isolated people could look at the talent system and come to the same conclusion of "This is what will allow me to do the most damage".

You looked up the build online? Cool good for you, that's your choice and you are free to do that. The problem is when you make the ignorant assumption that everyone plays games like you. It's suppose to be an RPG, there should be a lot of numbers to look at, and things that add incremental increases of power for your character. % damages, and all that jazz, if you don't like numbers then why are you playing RPG"s. Dumbing down the system doesn't change the fact that there is still an "optimal" way to play if you are looking to do something specific (dmg , healing , tank).

D3 has the same brain dead loud-out system, look how well its doing for the games so far.

[mipper]

It's not a talent system, it's a loadout, like a call of duty game.

That's actually a great comparison -- never thought about it as a loadout before.

I don't understand why you think the argument that everyone looked up builds online is hilarious. The source of the build, whether online, from guild members, your own brain is irrelevant. We eventually all came to a general build that only actually differed on 1 - 6 talent choices.

Anyway, I agree that something kind of feels off, or empty, with a loadout system having played both D3 and WoW -- likely because they make sure you don't accidentally gimp your character and it insults our intelligence when they build in fail-proof systems.

On the topic of build variety alone, at the very worst the new talent system is comparable to the old one. Mostly, there is truly more choice than ever now.

[Lomak]

That's actually a great comparison -- never thought about it as a loadout before.

I don't understand why you think the argument that everyone looked up builds online is hilarious. The source of the build, whether online, from guild members, your own brain is irrelevant. We eventually all came to a general build that only actually differed on 1 - 6 talent choices.

Anyway, I agree that something kind of feels off, or empty, with a loadout system having played both D3 and WoW -- likely because they make sure you don't accidentally gimp your character and it insults our intelligence when they build in fail-proof systems.

On the topic of build variety alone, at the very worst the new talent system is comparable to the old one. Mostly, there is truly more choice than ever now.

Well to me it's seems pretty obvious that.

1. It is Literally impossible for "everyone" to look up a build on line. Whose build are they looking up if "everyone" is doing it?

2. It's hilarious because they use the fact that some people are going to look up their builds as a basis for their argument that the system itself was somehow flawed because of that. They say it so 'matter of factly' without ever bothering to ask themselves if that actually makes any sense (it doesn't). Because it doesn't matter what system you use, there will be some people that just prefer to look up "how to do XXXX optimally" instead of just delving into the system blind, playing around with it, and through personal play experience finding what works, or what's fun, for themselves.

[tuuvaak]

They'll just change it all again next expansion because blizzard jumped the shark long ago.

idk about the phrase jumping the shark, but i do agree that blizzard cannot figure out what the hell to do with all the systems in their game that don't work the way modern MMOs work =P

i actually think we need a choice every ten levels again, and 4 choices per level. its ok without the trees and the points system, but right now characters are just way too similar. blizzard 'compromised' too far over into bland land.

that said, the 90 talents im familiar with (priest) are reasonably fun. i use cascade for both specs though. the other two... just too situational. even in those situations they don't do enough reliable damage.

[Binki]

They'll redo talents in next expansion, just like they did in every expansion so far.

[tuuvaak]

You looked up the build online? Cool good for you, that's your choice and you are free to do that. The problem is when you make the ignorant assumption that everyone plays games like you. It's suppose to be an RPG, there should be a lot of numbers to look at, and things that add incremental increases of power for your character. % damages, and all that jazz, if you don't like numbers then why are you playing RPG"s. Dumbing down the system doesn't change the fact that there is still an "optimal" way to play if you are looking to do something specific (dmg , healing , tank).

i suppose with min-max nerds, spreadsheets and data mining it wouldn't be possible, but i'd love to see MMOs go AWAY from displaying numbers. back to when Haste was just Haste and you didn't know the exact value. of course this would make us go back to the days when common store-bought and PC-crafted items were most often used, and 'magic' items were actually rare and sought-after. i know, not happening. was fun though! much less grindy.

another big thing that blizzard ran like hell from was RNG. RNG is a huge part of MMOs. it is the very soul of EQ-style combat systems. I hear them always saying that their players think relying on procs and effects 'sucks,' but i think that is just the e-sport crowd. if you want your MMO to have WWIs and 10k cash prizes and shit, you really have to build it from the ground up for that. I love PvP and I totally 'get' PvP fans - I've always loved it. But in MMOs PvP was always the ONE thing you used every trick in the book to win at, and blizzard fights against that. when you obsess over balance, the 'unknown factor' suspenseful essence of combat vs. another person is lost. it ends up another turn-based system of stacking for one thing and hoping to god to win with a burst out of the gate or pure attrition. procs aren't fun or fair, but LOS and medium cooldown management is? i don't get it.

[bklutz]

they'll probably just add another talent or redo what levels you get the talents. also to those saying there wont be a new xpac...yes there will...wow went up in subs therefore a new xpac is coming.

[Veyne]

Now everyone wins no matter what you do (which you have no choice doing)

So what you're saying is that you're insecure in your capability to perform with your character at a level at which you're legitimately better than someone else instead of relying at having the most optimal talent point distribution?

[mipper]

Well to me it's seems pretty obvious that.

1. It is Literally impossible for "everyone" to look up a build on line. Whose build are they looking up if "everyone" is doing it?

2. It's hilarious because they use the fact that some people are going to look up their builds as a basis for their argument that the system itself was somehow flawed because of that. They say it so 'matter of factly' without ever bothering to ask themselves if that actually makes any sense (it doesn't). Because it doesn't matter what system you use, there will be some people that just prefer to look up "how to do XXXX optimally" instead of just delving into the system blind, playing around with it, and through personal play experience finding what works, or what's fun, for themselves.

Thanks for clarifying.

Probably the heart of their argument -- deeper than looking up things online -- is that there were talents that were seen by 99.99% of the player base as mandatory raw power increases (i.e. when shadowform was a talent) and key to the spec, so those 99.99% of people clicked that button on their way to max level.

Selecting these talents was not interesting/compelling gameplay since this was not a difficult decision -- like you said, any brain dead person can figure out which talents are best. They are attempting to create a system which requires more thought/experimentation based on your objectives and encounter.

I guess ultimately where the build comes from is a moot point in my eyes -- with the new loadout system you can still delve into the system and play around with what works or with what is fun -- the only difference is you can't be severely punished by experimenting since they don't allow you to gimp yourself.

I will admit that only making 6 decisions feels wrong -- especially for a game of this magnitude. I think if they expanded the loadout to 12 decisions as you level it would help.

Also, agree that RPGs are about looking at numbers and % increases -- I think we get a fair amount of that just through gearing and reforging, let's use the talent system for something more interesting!