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  1. #81
    Shuriken Flurry? That sounds amazing!

    Hrm. I have a 435 combat weapon, and two 489 daggers. This is sounding like I have to consider this shuriken throw build for combat fights until I get an epic mainhand.

  2. #82
    I am Murloc! Ryme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smashysmashy View Post
    It does, if your next to a target + ST a distant target, the damage is still reflected.
    Well that opens up some fun.
    I am the lucid dream
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  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Smashysmashy View Post
    It does, if your next to a target + ST a distant target, the damage is still reflected.
    So if I understand you correctly, you can have BF up on one target, and use ST on a distant target, and the attack hits both targets due to BF mechanics? Is this confirmed or am I misunderstanding your quote.

    For example, I am picturing the Will of the Emperor fight. Is it possible to have a combat rogue on add control and while attacking an emperor's strength we can ST the boss and still do damage to both targets?

    If this is correct and I am not misunderstanding what is being said, than this has to be a more efficient dps strategy for that specific fight. It would allow rogues to apply cleave damage to adds and still "DoT" up the emperors at the same time.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Mercone View Post
    So if I understand you correctly, you can have BF up on one target, and use ST on a distant target, and the attack hits both targets due to BF mechanics? Is this confirmed or am I misunderstanding your quote.

    For example, I am picturing the Will of the Emperor fight. Is it possible to have a combat rogue on add control and while attacking an emperor's strength we can ST the boss and still do damage to both targets?

    If this is correct and I am not misunderstanding what is being said, than this has to be a more efficient dps strategy for that specific fight. It would allow rogues to apply cleave damage to adds and still "DoT" up the emperors at the same time.
    Can someone confirm that please? If that is right, this isn't the only encounter where ST will be very viable.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Nynnja View Post
    Can someone confirm that please? If that is right, this isn't the only encounter where ST will be very viable.

    I'm not allowed to post links, so take the http-adress of WoL and add following after dot com => /reports/4mvmldu8ynn92dba/details/2/
    Last edited by hawke1221; 2012-10-16 at 05:05 PM.

  6. #86
    Messed around with it in SimulationCraft a bit, and here was the results:

    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1086121/simc...omparison.html

    Keep in mind that the action lists for Shuriken Toss are probably suboptimal (I don't play rogue, the thread just caught my interest) and I just did the initial implementation for Shuriken Toss in SimC so it's most likely not entirely accurate.

    I did the following for ST usage:
    Mutilate: Used as sole CP generator pre 35%.
    Combat: Used as sole CP generator while deep insight is up.
    Subtlety: Used as CP generator any time Ambush is not usable.

    It seems like Shuriken Toss as a purely single target damage tool, is actually rather viable for Subtlety, but a complete wash for the other two specs.
    Last edited by aggixx; 2012-10-16 at 03:57 PM.

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  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    The easiest way to nip ST in the bud as a combo builder without nerfing its damage is to add a 5yd minimum range.
    Why is ST a problem again that needs to be "nipped in the bud" exactly? My rogue doesn't need more nerfs. I like shuriken toss how it is, thanks. With so many complaints about current rogue play I would really hate to see some annoying mechanic like a minimum range on anything.

    Rogues certainly aren't in any danger of doing too much damage with it. If someone prefers to use ST in their rotation instead of taking anticipation, what's it matter? There isn't any proof that ST out-performs anticipation for all specs and all situations thereby forcing you to take it. I'm going to laugh (and cry a little) when people complain about ST thinking they are going to get some sinister strike buff and actully end up just getting another nerf instead. They think rogues are fine in pve. You think you're getting any buffs?

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Mercone View Post
    So if I understand you correctly, you can have BF up on one target, and use ST on a distant target, and the attack hits both targets due to BF mechanics? Is this confirmed or am I misunderstanding your quote.

    For example, I am picturing the Will of the Emperor fight. Is it possible to have a combat rogue on add control and while attacking an emperor's strength we can ST the boss and still do damage to both targets?

    If this is correct and I am not misunderstanding what is being said, than this has to be a more efficient dps strategy for that specific fight. It would allow rogues to apply cleave damage to adds and still "DoT" up the emperors at the same time.
    The problem I am seeing here is that you would never be able to use a finisher. The combo points are all going to be on the target that is at a distance. I doubt you'll make up that kind of a DPS loss purely on ST blade furry damage.
    "Our logic is actually pretty simple. If hybrid classes can do the same dps as pure classes, then why have pure classes in the game? So we design the pure classes to do slightly higher dps." -Ghostcrawler 3/22/2009
    http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15864857264&pageNo=4&sid=1#66

  9. #89
    So, have we come to a conclusion that ST is pretty good for sub? If so, could someone write up kind of a preliminary rotation for this? IE when to use Backstab and when to use ST because as I read through this I see where some people are going and then I read other opinions and think "Hrm, there is alot of stuff here". So if we could get someone who has been actively testing this stuff to write up a preliminary kind of rotation I am sure there would be quite a few rogues who would enjoy it very much (myself included because I have limited time throughout the day to read this stuff and then put it into practice).
    Last edited by Doomninja; 2012-10-16 at 05:37 PM.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    Messed around with it in SimulationCraft a bit, and here was the results:

    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1086121/simc...omparison.html

    Keep in mind that the action lists for Shuriken Toss are probably suboptimal (I don't play rogue, the thread just caught my interest) and I just did the initial implementation for Shuriken Toss in SimC so it's most likely not entirely accurate.

    I did the following for ST usage:
    Mutilate: Used as sole CP generator pre 35%.
    Combat: Used as sole CP generator while deep insight is up.
    Subtlety: Used as CP generator any time Ambush is not usable.

    It seems like Shuriken Toss as a purely single target damage tool, is actually rather viable for Subtlety, but a complete wash for the other two specs.
    can you post ur SimC priority list or SimC code you change to get shuriken toss to work? I've played around with the code and can't quiet figure out how to send the right parameter or add ability to the action list.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Zark View Post
    So, have we come to a conclusion that ST is pretty good for sub? If so, could someone write up kind of a preliminary rotation for this? IE when to use Backstab and when to use ST because as I read through this I see where some people are going and then I read other opinions and think "Hrm, there is alot of stuff here". So if we could get someone who has been actively testing this stuff to write up a preliminary kind of rotation I am sure there would be quite a few rogues who would enjoy it very much (myself included because I have limited time throughout the day to read this stuff and then put it into practice).
    Any time you can't ambush and your Hemo dot is already rolling, run ST.
    I'm gonna fuck with this today and post what I can later.
    Those are just initial thoughts.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by crazymack View Post
    can you post ur SimC priority list or SimC code you change to get shuriken toss to work? I've played around with the code and can't quiet figure out how to send the right parameter or add ability to the action list.
    You can see the action list I used in either the action list or profile section of the report.

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  13. #93
    I am Murloc! Ryme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hayturr View Post
    Any time you can't ambush and your Hemo dot is already rolling, run ST.
    I'm gonna fuck with this today and post what I can later.
    Those are just initial thoughts.
    Be ready to use backstabbing to dump excess energy, especially during bloodlust phases.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-17 at 07:27 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    Messed around with it in SimulationCraft a bit, and here was the results:

    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1086121/simc...omparison.html

    Keep in mind that the action lists for Shuriken Toss are probably suboptimal (I don't play rogue, the thread just caught my interest) and I just did the initial implementation for Shuriken Toss in SimC so it's most likely not entirely accurate.

    I did the following for ST usage:
    Mutilate: Used as sole CP generator pre 35%.
    Combat: Used as sole CP generator while deep insight is up.
    Subtlety: Used as CP generator any time Ambush is not usable.

    It seems like Shuriken Toss as a purely single target damage tool, is actually rather viable for Subtlety, but a complete wash for the other two specs.
    The action list for subtlety must be improvable since there's not a single backstab there. As others have said, mind posting your list?
    I am the lucid dream
    Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh


  14. #94
    I'm just going to add that Shuriken Toss is an amazing tool for soloing old content...
    Shadow Walk : Significantly increases Stealth effectiveness for 6 sec, but causes Stealth to be nerfed to justify its usage. In addition, it uses old Enveloping Shadows icon and has no sound, animation or spell effect to show that the skill is actually doing something.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    Messed around with it in SimulationCraft a bit, and here was the results:

    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1086121/simc...omparison.html

    Keep in mind that the action lists for Shuriken Toss are probably suboptimal (I don't play rogue, the thread just caught my interest) and I just did the initial implementation for Shuriken Toss in SimC so it's most likely not entirely accurate.

    I did the following for ST usage:
    Mutilate: Used as sole CP generator pre 35%.
    Combat: Used as sole CP generator while deep insight is up.
    Subtlety: Used as CP generator any time Ambush is not usable.

    It seems like Shuriken Toss as a purely single target damage tool, is actually rather viable for Subtlety, but a complete wash for the other two specs.

    Can confirm this: I'm ranking first on H Feng atm as Sub, here's the Log: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=5512&e=6039 Tested it myself on Dummys etc. without Simcraft, but nice to hear it supports my idea.

    @aggixx
    I'm currently running into the Problem that i have to weave a Backstab into the Rotation, as mentioned before: with Haste reforge i otherwise cap out on Energy with ST only. May i ask you to run a Simulation with a Mastery heavy Setup? I need to figure out the "sweet spot" for Haste, too.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Nouk View Post
    Can confirm this: I'm ranking first on H Feng atm as Sub, here's the Log: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=5512&e=6039 Tested it myself on Dummys etc. without Simcraft, but nice to hear it supports my idea.

    @aggixx
    I'm currently running into the Problem that i have to weave a Backstab into the Rotation, as mentioned before: with Haste reforge i otherwise cap out on Energy with ST only. May i ask you to run a Simulation with a Mastery heavy Setup? I need to figure out the "sweet spot" for Haste, too.
    The Sub ST profile only spent 0.5% of it's time energy capped, granted it's a "PreRaid set" (mostly blues) so you may have better gear, but 0.5% is pretty darn low.

    Feral Druid Maintainer of SimC // Moderator at Fluid Druid forums
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    // Pawkets' Pro Raiders // <Forgotten Aspects>

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    Messed around with it in SimulationCraft a bit, and here was the results:

    Keep in mind that the action lists for Shuriken Toss are probably suboptimal (I don't play rogue, the thread just caught my interest) and I just did the initial implementation for Shuriken Toss in SimC so it's most likely not entirely accurate.

    I did the following for ST usage:
    Mutilate: Used as sole CP generator pre 35%.
    Combat: Used as sole CP generator while deep insight is up.
    Subtlety: Used as CP generator any time Ambush is not usable.

    It seems like Shuriken Toss as a purely single target damage tool, is actually rather viable for Subtlety, but a complete wash for the other two specs.
    Is it possible to Sim Assn using standard Mutilate rotation, dispatch when available to go from 4 to 5 cp otherwise use shuriken toss to go from 4-5 cp? Seems it could be a nice way to never use 4 point finishers.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by mach d View Post
    Is it possible to Sim Assn using standard Mutilate rotation, dispatch when available to go from 4 to 5 cp otherwise use shuriken toss to go from 4-5 cp? Seems it could be a nice way to never use 4 point finishers.
    Question is, what would be the benefit from taking Shuriken over Anticipation if your only goal with it is using a 5 combo point finisher instead of 4? Anticipation allows you to do the same thing.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    Question is, what would be the benefit from taking Shuriken over Anticipation if your only goal with it is using a 5 combo point finisher instead of 4? Anticipation allows you to do the same thing.
    The issue (based on my gut alone) I think is time and energy regeneration in order to use other mutiliate when you have Rupture ticking away at you waiting for a refresh. Not sure how that plays out over 5 minutes in a sim. But you may be right.

    All things being equal, st might have more usefulness overall.

  20. #100
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-4p...?s=3207&e=3632
    First attempt on Shuriken Toss Assassination, figured I could give it a shot. Damage could have been higher if I wouldn't have been semi sleeping and instead of using finishers at 5 combo points, using them at 4. I started Dispatching instead of STing at sub 35%, but it wasn't even a big increase.

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