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  1. #1

    Shuriken Toss is the new Shiv

    Ran LFR today with other rogues and noticed that while i was in the 10-11 spot with one rogue the other one was constantly in the top 2 spots. o looked at his gear and noticed it was pretty much on par with me so i checked recount and sure enough he was doing the whole shuriken toss thing. Seems like its the new Shiv spec and thoughts?

  2. #2
    .......what? Let me see if I get this right; A rogue was topping meters in LFR, by exchanging Sinister Strike/Mutilate/Backstab... With Shuriken Toss?

    EDIT: I mean, it does cost significantly less energy than its counterparts, but our CP-builders surely aren't THAT useless?

  3. #3
    should have taken a screen shot of your recount id love to see that

  4. #4
    curious about this as well. tons of finishers i guess?

  5. #5
    I am not suprised : what is the percentage of damage provided by Muti ? What is the percentage damage provide by Venomous Wound, your poisons and Envenom ? Just sacrify what provides you the less to optimize what provides you the most !
    When the designers are morons, just abuse their stupidity !

  6. #6
    Seriously, this could turn out to be hilarious.

  7. #7
    I'll go run some dummy tests. We jokingly theorized about using ST during deep insight but I always assumed it reset the swing timer. Since it doesn't... it could well be ahead and I will /cry and jump off a tall wall.

    Note: I'm not about to do the really in-depth mechanical analysis of poisons against this for extra strikes and the value of CP against damage blah blah but get some basic data about ST damage against SS/RvS to see (before additional mechanics) if one is higher DPE before poisons.

    It seems like an odd outlying question... but can ST (in melee) proc MG? I'll see if I can test this. Without MG any advantage would at least be smaller for combat... other questions would concern scaling and such that I'll check into when I can. This intrigues and bothers me at the same time.
    Last edited by Kael; 2012-10-10 at 07:12 AM.

  8. #8
    Thats a good question whether or not it will work for MG, but the other specs don't really have to worry about that. I mean its almost 3 ST per mut which is more poison procs per energy and more cp per energy which is where a lot of assassination's damage is. The same is true of hemo/bs/dispatch just to a lower degree. Now I'm kind of skeptical as to if that actually out does the higher damage cp generators.

    For combat you also would still need to SS/RvS as I seriously doubt ST could be anywhere near what you would lose not using insight, but that means you give up anticipation so you will end up losing out on some of those free cp's. For assassination you'd end up going back to the 4-5cp finishers instead of only 5cp which is also a loss. Now if anticipation is the deciding factor, that could be pretty interesting on fights where you can make use of ST from range.

    I'm gonna say it probably isn't higher dps. I wish the OP said what spec the guy was, but the main basis for the OP's insinuation that ST is better than the usual cp builders is that the rogue was #2 in lfr which doesn't exactly say a whole lot (I mean I was #1 on all 3 fights today in lfr which certainly doesn't accurately reflect my position in regular raids).

  9. #9
    I've got a couple of rough (and primarily useless, when I thought about it in the long run for issues like gear scaling factors, enchant procs, melee/not meleeing, and having the Direbrew trinket on (oh god why are you still here)) comparisons of basic damage factors between them, but I think it's time to take it to sims juuust in case we're wrong and need to start raiding with ST until blizzard nerfs it. I'll see what I can't dabble in.

    For the combat side, you CAN separate out the sections (far too short) where insight wasn't up or do an averaging to extrapolate expected damage from ST vs. RvS/SS in deep insight. ST DOESN'T proc MG (or auto-attack, go figure) in combat, putting it at a distinct immediate disadvantage... but there could be some quirky advantages played around SB outlasting AR and getting 2 CP for 20 energy for 6 seconds (this does of course work in the other specs as well, without AR). Might be some settings worth playing around with... ST always above 35% or only during SB for assassination to get more CP per energy for higher env uptime... just some food for thought. I don't thiiink I'll get to playing with sims in the next couple days but if someone wants to beat me to it, be my guest.

    The crap logs:

    combat: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/0...eb8/details/1/ - 489 Fist MH
    assass: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/h...76x/details/2/ - 463 daggers

    Trinket/windsong uptime listings are terribly in favor of SS/RvS/Mut because I was auto-attacking for those, but it's too late for me to want to put up something like an hour log of pressing ST and an hour log of pressing SS/Mut. We could math out the difference in CP/damage from my logs for ST vs. Mut to see how those abilities compare directly without buffs or scaling factors, but that seems like a waste of time with handy-dandy sims around that can give me fake buffs...

  10. #10
    "We think rogues are about where we want them."
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  11. #11
    Scarab Lord Viridiancity's Avatar
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    I brought this up in a topic here not long ago.

    Wheras a Sinister Strike dealt, in full T2 PVP gear on beta, about 11k damage and generated 1-2 combo points for 45 energy, a Shuriken Toss did 7-9k, generated 1 combo point and cost 20 energy.

    Shuriken Toss Combat was a faster-paced playstyle, BUT you wouldn't advance Bandit's Guile. An idea I had seen kicked around in that thread was Sinister Strike to Deep Insight, swap to Shuriken Toss for the duration of Deep Insight.


    I can imagine Shuriken Toss Subtlety would be more viable, but you would be going to 5+ combo points, like, a lot.

    Assassination maybe over 35%, but it's a tossup depending on Blindside procs.

  12. #12
    The fact sinister strike can hit for less than it did during ICC is a joke.

  13. #13
    Me on 24th August :

    Quote Originally Posted by Sendai View Post
    Kinda reminds me the old shiv spam build that dealt so much damage.
    I already saw it coming. No surprise, mutilate physical damage is probably one of the weakest in the entire game considering its resource cost. It has a double chance to proc poisons, but that's almost negligible considering that you are hitting the button twice every pull.

    But you know how Blizzard will address this, right? It'll either remove the lethal poison triggering part of make it not give combo points anymore.
    Shadow Walk : Significantly increases Stealth effectiveness for 6 sec, but causes Stealth to be nerfed to justify its usage. In addition, it uses old Enveloping Shadows icon and has no sound, animation or spell effect to show that the skill is actually doing something.

  14. #14
    Immortal Ryme's Avatar
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    Hilarious, absolutely hilarious.
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  15. #15
    not very happy about this, really. just points out our problems even more. nevertheless it's not that bad for combat. adds some new kind of mechanic to make the specc more interesting.

  16. #16
    So how far are we on knowing whether it is viable or not?

  17. #17
    a little more detail on it was he was assassination spec and if i remember correctly his top 3 damage producers were as followed Deadly poison, Shuriken Toss, Melee. He was pulling anywhere from 55k-60k DPS each of the 3 bosses while me and the other rogue were pulling 35k-40k. (me as Sub and He as Combat). I was laughing pretty hard because someone made a post in the official forums like 2 days earlier and everyone was basically yelling burn the witch for thinking of such a ridiculous idea.

  18. #18
    Blizzard's response: You wanted interesting lvl 90 talents that increase your dps. Y u no like Shuriken Toss then?

  19. #19
    I would have imagined mutilate would be the spec of choice for this. The big benefit is the low energy cost, and combat has the most energy regeneration of the specs. On top of not moving BG of course. As mutilate a large portion of your damage is poisons and buffs. more CP per energy gets you a higher envenom uptime and rupture uptime. that being said, 55-60k dps is not impressive at all :-/ especially compared to what a hit cap/exp cap combat rogue should be doing to stone guardians.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by eijin View Post
    I would have imagined mutilate would be the spec of choice for this. The big benefit is the low energy cost, and combat has the most energy regeneration of the specs. On top of not moving BG of course. As mutilate a large portion of your damage is poisons and buffs. more CP per energy gets you a higher envenom uptime and rupture uptime. that being said, 55-60k dps is not impressive at all :-/ especially compared to what a hit cap/exp cap combat rogue should be doing to stone guardians.
    At first i was combat and it was not working in lfr because its way to chaotic and bladefluury is not always hitting 2. So i can see that in an actual run.

    Side note if you havent played sub in raid recently do its FUN so many combo points and when hou pop shadow bladeshou cant spend them fast enough

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