Shuriken Toss is the new Shiv

[Bovan]

Side note if you havent played sub in raid recently do its FUN so many combo points and when hou pop shadow bladeshou cant spend them fast enough

That makes everyone who cares about their DPS and tries to min/max their class cringe, actually. Just like end of Cataclysm when we couldn't always use all the energy we got as Combat when using Adrenaline Rush. All the complaining about that yielded a glyph that reduced the global cooldown of our main attacks during Adrenaline Rush.

If we/you are having issues capping on combo points or energy at the start of the expansion, this is only going to get much worse.

[r0773nluck]

That makes everyone who cares about their DPS and tries to min/max their class cringe, actually. Just like end of Cataclysm when we couldn't always use all the energy we got as Combat when using Adrenaline Rush. All the complaining about that yielded a glyph that reduced the global cooldown of our main attacks during Adrenaline Rush.

If we/you are having issues capping on combo points or energy at the start of the expansion, this is only going to get much worse.

The spend them fast enough is just an expression, but without the finL talent that lets you hold 10 combo points there would be alot of wasted points. You basically arespamming eviserate more then backstab when you pop shadowblades

[Verain]

?? I don't think it's a damage increase in general.

We definitely discussed using it during red insight, that makes sense. As to whether it will get you more damage than anticipation, I don't know.

But to just spam it? Mutilate is a good builder, and procs blindside. I haven't done even napkin math for sub yet, but maybe with a mastery stacked build there would be something there. Again, is that gonna be more than anticipation?

I'll check in LFR or dummy soon.

[Sesshou]

Hmm from coldkill's logs, the damage per energy of ST is almost the exact same as mutilate (using avg hit numbers for ST compared to both hands of mutilate). You get more poisons and cp with ST. Now as mentioned you do lose blindside procs, but I'm pretty sure ST will still give you more cp and poisons, but dispatch hits reasonably hard and you give up anticipation. After looking at that, I'm definitely interested in seeing a sim.

[Matutin]

If it provides a dps i would be happy. Happy because we would have a talent that boosts our dps and it is not just useless.

[Sesshou]

If it provides a dps i would be happy. Happy because we would have a talent that boosts our dps and it is not just useless.

We have "a" talent that does that already. Anticipation is a dps boost guaranteed for 2/3 specs (conveniently the 2 out of the 3 that are useful atm) and unless you have some insane HAT management, it will end up as a dps boost for sub too. Technically versatility can be a dps boost (over not having picked one at least) if you are swapping enough, but I think you mean guaranteed dps gain talents.

[Linneth]

Tested it tonight on raid: rank 17 on Stone Guards as Assassination Rogue with Shuriken Toss. If it isn't a damage increase it's atleast equal to standard mutilate rotation.

[eijin]

Its definately a dps boost for HaT, expecially at times like shadow dance. I dont main play sub (actually dropped it for mutilate anyway) but there will always be times when you have more CP than you do energy to blow through them, as well as waiting a few seconds before refreshing your rupture/SnD to be optimal (4 sec left on your rupture with 5 CP, you can wait the 2 seconds for maximum effectiveness and not lose out on the 1-2 cp from HaT).

[Matutin]

We have "a" talent that does that already. Anticipation is a dps boost guaranteed for 2/3 specs (conveniently the 2 out of the 3 that are useful atm) and unless you have some insane HAT management, it will end up as a dps boost for sub too. Technically versatility can be a dps boost (over not having picked one at least) if you are swapping enough, but I think you mean guaranteed dps gain talents.

I was trying to say that it would be lovely to have a talent worth picking, not just an useless boring talent thats add nothing to our spec.


Maybe i am asking for too much...

[Sesshou]

Tested it tonight on raid: rank 17 on Stone Guards as Assassination Rogue with Shuriken Toss. If it isn't a damage increase it's atleast equal to standard mutilate rotation.

That is probably the absolute worst fight to compare on though as far as you vs other rogues because almost all the good ones were using combat as it is massively superior. Not slighting you, just saying that your rank alone doesn't give much useful information in this case.

I was trying to say that it would be lovely to have a talent worth picking, not just an useless boring talent thats add nothing to our spec.

Maybe i am asking for too much...

How is anticipation in that category? I mean I agree it isn't the most amazing or novel mechanic ever, but it certainly adds something. It adds a vast amount of freedom in pooling, bursting, or refreshing multiple things that will expire at the same time.

[Matutin]

That is probably the absolute worst fight to compare on though as far as you vs other rogues because almost all the good ones were using combat as it is massively superior. Not slighting you, just saying that your rank alone doesn't give much useful information in this case.



How is anticipation in that category? I mean I agree it isn't the most amazing or novel mechanic ever, but it certainly adds something. It adds a vast amount of freedom in pooling, bursting, or refreshing multiple things that will expire at the same time.

I may need to learn english once more...

WHAT I was trying to say:

"Hey, it would be great if ST didnt suck, since it is a talent and since that talents are based on choice and the choices are quite few, it would be really really great if it didnt suck bad"

[Verain]

I think the real question is, does ST provide more single target dps in melee range than Anticipation?

If not, no problem. Currently, I'm pretty sure it doesn't. Blindside is definitely something!

[r0773nluck]

I think the real question is, does ST provide more single target dps in melee range than Anticipation?

If not, no problem. Currently, I'm pretty sure it doesn't. Blindside is definitely something!

in our current low ilvl it does im pretty sure based on what ive seen

[Carp The Fish]

Check this Emperor kill:

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/m...=14368&e=15044

Fact of the matter is, Shuriken Toss can pull decent DPS as Assassination. In mostly-heroic-dungeon gear.

Also, Will of the Emperor is annoying.

Also also, Shuriken Toss does not net more single-target DPS for any of the three specs.
if you're doing it as Combat, you don't get Bandit's Guile.
If you're doing it as Assassination, you don't get Blindside procs.
If you're doing it as Subtlety, you don't get.....actually Subtlety might have a point here.

[Verain]

I don't think it's shocking or bad that an ST rotation doesn't SUCK. A frost DK ignoring obliterate for howling blast and plague strike will do less damage, but it's not like he's sitting on his hands, etc. Shuriken is a talent, so I would expect it to be better than "throw". It's not better than Anticipation, which is what it is actually competing with.

I just don't see the problem. Here's a rotation with an alternate builder that is less dps single target- why are we upset again?

Note: I can't see the WoL from this connection.

[Bovan]

Tested it tonight on raid: rank 17 on Stone Guards as Assassination Rogue with Shuriken Toss. If it isn't a damage increase it's atleast equal to standard mutilate rotation.

With all respect, that doesn't say much. I got the number 1 rank in the first week and I did absolutely terrible that run. As in like, I've never seen a Rogue play as bad as I did in that Stone Guard log.

I've been messing around with Shuriken Toss in 5 man heroics but it doesn't seem to matter much. Gotta admit having a ranged attack is quite nice.

[Superp]

could work well for sub as we could pool more to finisher more, i do like haveing 10 points for aoe tho.
wait...we dont need to be behind and can actualy hit from ranged and do more dps... inc nerf

[Bluegirl91]

About LFR in general: With my 473ilevel gear the dmg looked exactly like at the end of cata in LFR with 410 gear and legendaries. Meaning me on 1st with 5-15 % ahead. Played combat. So either you are doing something wrong, or your gear isn't on par. Rogue dmg is fine, pvewise. Play feeling and stuff is another question.

About Shuriken Toss... at least for combat I don't believe it will be a increase ever, even during full insight. Anticipation is very strong for combat.

[Nouk]

I just tested a few runs as Sub, with Backstab vs Toss: No openers, no cooldowns, just Hemo/Rupture and SnD Standard Rotation.
5x CP Builder to SnD, then Hemo, then 5CP Rupture, Evis until refresh.

Shuriken Toss took the Lead by about 2k on the Raiding Dummy. As the opening favours Shuriken Toss a little (faster Slice and Dice), i guess that it pretty much evens out.

Problem here is, Toss is pretty nice during Cooldown usage (more Finishers during FW and Shadow Blades) , but so is Anticipation (pooling CP's etc.). And it's friggin RANGED and has NO positional Requirement! Dafuq! I was pretty baffled, and will be sure to test this more. I will test the full Rotation including everything to be sure.
But damn, i wouldnt have guessed it is so close!

[Damax]

I just dinged today, messing around with shuriken toss and anticipation. I used the level 85 dummy on all test just because my gear sucks.

As assassination anticipation gave me 25k dps. Replacing mut and blindside except for shadow focused mutilate with shuriken toss gave me 25k dps went up to 27k during cooldowns. Normal rotation no anticipation gave me 25k dps sometimes 26k with lucky blindside procs and capped at 30k during cooldown. Tested all situation twice for 5 min per session

Bit new to sub so i wouldnt say they were accurate, 22k anticipation, 25k st, 25k normal rotation...

Maybe its just cause my weapons sucks. I miss 4.3 anyway