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  1. #41
    I think that during shadow dance would be better to throw at least one ambush for find weakness - if not spamming it.

    But for the rest, ST looks extremely sexy for the spec. Trying tonight.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    I think that during shadow dance would be better to throw at least one ambush for find weakness - if not spamming it.

    But for the rest, ST looks extremely sexy for the spec. Trying tonight.
    I ambushed in shadow dance since its reduced by 20 energy and give fw

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Damax View Post
    I ambushed in shadow dance since its reduced by 20 energy and give fw
    While true, it still does cost a whooping 40 energy; which is quite a lot, considering the low haste values, and the pain in the ass that is the double dipping in resources from our finishers. I don't have the numbers before me, but 1 Ambush needs to do the damage of 2 Shuriken Tosses, while under the influence of FW, to be better.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Carp The Fish View Post
    Check this Emperor kill:

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/m...=14368&e=15044

    Fact of the matter is, Shuriken Toss can pull decent DPS as Assassination. In mostly-heroic-dungeon gear.

    Also, Will of the Emperor is annoying.

    Also also, Shuriken Toss does not net more single-target DPS for any of the three specs.
    if you're doing it as Combat, you don't get Bandit's Guile.
    If you're doing it as Assassination, you don't get Blindside procs.
    If you're doing it as Subtlety, you don't get.....actually Subtlety might have a point here.
    I'm curious as to how/when you were using ST. With 73 hits and 17 crits, that seems like more than just using it to prevent energy capping when out of melee range. Were you using it to increase Envenom uptime? Or to make your Ruptures bigger if you weren't going to get to 5CP before it fell off?

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    While true, it still does cost a whooping 40 energy; which is quite a lot, considering the low haste values, and the pain in the ass that is the double dipping in resources from our finishers. I don't have the numbers before me, but 1 Ambush needs to do the damage of 2 Shuriken Tosses, while under the influence of FW, to be better.
    Pretty sure ambush does more than 2x st dmg will check tonight

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Damax View Post
    Pretty sure ambush does more than 2x st dmg will check tonight
    I would hope so, I ambush for 120-140k with FW up. I haven't tried ST but if it can hit 60k with FW up then it is easily better than backstab. My guess is ambush is still worth using since it pretty much hits as hard as eviscerate anyway.
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  7. #47
    It doesn't. Ambush under FW is very distinctly ahead. Backstab seems to have a distinct, but small, pre-poisons lead (back to the logs I posted) over ST outside and inside FW uptime.

  8. #48
    hmm.. now we just need Deadly Throw buffed and we can have a real range rotation

  9. #49
    I wanted to try this spec just for shit and giggles and i actually managed to get a rank 1 parse in wol on 4 kings, which is not saying much seeing that not many peoples actually use sub on that fight (or any fight for that matter), but still is kinda cool

    Here's the log for those intererested, i actually didn't play that try well at all, i had way better tries and i'm sure i could have done way more than that but whatever:

    LOG

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Miseinen View Post
    I wanted to try this spec just for shit and giggles and i actually managed to get a rank 1 parse in wol on 4 kings, which is not saying much seeing that not many peoples actually use sub on that fight (or any fight for that matter), but still is kinda cool

    Here's the log for those intererested, i actually didn't play that try well at all, i had way better tries and i'm sure i could have done way more than that but whatever:

    LOG
    i have been trying to pick up a mastery set to test this, been having trouble energy capping while not in shadowdance

  11. #51
    I tried the ST sub spec on the second boss (don't remeber the name :P ) i've done a 45k dps fight - which is at least on par with the damage i've done in other situations.
    There are some downs with my gear unfortunately:
    - only 461 ilvl (which is pretty low but imho enough to dish out decent numbers)
    - i didn't use a dagger main hand, hence i lost a lot of poisons procs, lost Hemo damage, etc, etc.


    Ambush is definitely better than ST in shadow dance, anyway. It hits for a damn lot more than 2 ST - maybe if both crit they can be on par. Anyway i've seen a 65k one LOL.

  12. #52
    Okay, made a full Raid on H Feng with ST as my main CP Builder as Sub, the results were pretty nice!

    Here are my Experiences so far:

    - ST gives you 99,9% Uptime. It procs insanely much Poison, but also Trinkets.
    It may be better to not ST on range when your Relic etc. are ready.
    - Great Fluidity, Rotation feels complete. A lot more Eviscerates due to insane CP Generation.
    - On Heroism, i switch to Backstab, with Haste reforge i otherwise cap out on Energy.
    When i can't get below 75 Energy on average, i "weave" a Backstab into the Rotation.
    - Anticipation didn't net me enough CP's due to low Haste. My guess is that with better Gear, Anticipation will outperform ST.
    - Energy Pooling before Cooldowns became easier, because i can refresh SnD and Rupture alot faster.
    That way i can better line up my CD's with my Trinket Proc's.


    So far, im pretty much satisfied with ST. Who would've guessed? In my Opinion Sub is the best Spec for ST though. No Reliance on other CP Builders like RS/SS, nice Energy Regen with SnD even outside of Melee, nice AP Boost thanks to Sinister Calling (ST seems to scale with AP) and it gets boosted by Sanguary Vein.

    My Gear: http://eu.battle.net/wow/de/characte...perbolt/simple

    Will look if i can post some Logs.
    Last edited by Nouk; 2012-10-12 at 02:57 PM.

  13. #53
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    Did some very unscientific testing on a dummy, ST netted me about 4k more dps than Anticipation as subtlety. But, it looks wierd
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  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    Did some very unscientific testing on a dummy, ST netted me about 4k more dps than Anticipation as subtlety. But, it looks wierd
    The biggest issue i would see with that is that the low energy cost leads to ST's biggest benifit (as i see it, going off untested opppinion is even less scientific :P) is the CP generation. In the case of a raid you will have 9/24 other players critting and giving you a CP every ~2 seconds. I would expect ST to look more valuble without the benifits of HaT due to this.

    Solution, get your entire guild to help you test!

  15. #55
    High Overlord shalnath's Avatar
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    I know you guys are discussing this in PvE situations, but has anyone tried replacing Shuriken Toss with Mutilate in PvP?

    Now I know you lose Blindside procs when you do this, but I found out that damage has increased significantly across the board. Yeah that's right, burst and sustained damage is now better as Assassination in PvP thanks to the low energy cost of Shuriken Toss and how fast it generates combo points to be used with finishers. With Shadow Blades up, I'm using Envenom every 2-3 seconds while building combo points with Shuriken Toss. The damage this puts out when combined with Vendetta is nuts. Dispatch is still better to use when your opponent is under 35% but otherwise Shuriken Toss seems to be the way to go. I haven't tried this in arena yet but in battlegrounds the majority of my damage is coming from Deadly Poison procs and I'm more than doubling my total damage done now then when I was using Mutilate or playing Subtlety. Easily hitting over 10 million damage done in a average-length match of Arathi Basin and usually topping damage.

    Again, not sure how effective this would be in high-rated arena but I am melting people in battlegrounds at the moment. It's really a lot of fun.

  16. #56
    Legendary! Holo's Avatar
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    Go Subtlety for PvP, not Assasination.

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  17. #57
    Incoming Shuriken Toss nerf then.

  18. #58
    Legendary! Holo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hungrydingo View Post
    Incoming Shuriken Toss nerf then.
    Doubt it, sooner a CP builder buff.

    That stuff hits like a wet noodle anyway.

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  19. #59
    High Overlord shalnath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holo View Post
    Go Subtlety for PvP, not Assasination.
    Not exactly sure what you're trying to say here. I specifically said I wasn't sure if it was good in rated PvP or not, but that I was melting people in battlegrounds and that it was pretty fun. If you disagree that's fine but you could at least post why.

    Quote Originally Posted by Holo View Post
    Doubt it, sooner a CP builder buff.

    That stuff hits like a wet noodle anyway.
    The damage of Shuriken Toss isn't the point, it's the poisons it procs and the combo points per energy it gives that allow you to use abilities that actually do damage much more frequently than using Mutilate alone would.

  20. #60
    Legendary! Holo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shalnath View Post
    Not exactly sure what you're trying to say here. I specifically said I wasn't sure if it was good in rated PvP or not, but that I was melting people in battlegrounds and that it was pretty fun. If you disagree that's fine but you could at least post why.
    Subtlety is better. Plainly said. Mutilate doesn't provide the burst and utility even close to what Subtlety does.

    Quote Originally Posted by shalnath View Post
    The damage of Shuriken Toss isn't the point, it's the poisons it procs and the combo points per energy it gives that allow you to use abilities that actually do damage much more frequently than using Mutilate alone would.
    So in the end it does come down to the damage afterall, doesn't it?

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