Shuriken Toss is the new Shiv

[Nouk]

Doubt it, sooner a CP builder buff.

That stuff hits like a wet noodle anyway.

Nope, it think that 2P T14 will "fix" it. At least for Sub, anyways. /sadface.

[shadowboy]

Things to keep in mind regarding ST vs main combo builder per spec:

Assassination: ST does not proc blindside. ST spam = no dispatch. You can get up to 4 combo points for 55 energy for mutilating. At 15% crit, mutilate is about 21 energy per combo point, close to ST's. As you gain more crit, it will eventually outscale ST--mutilate scales far better with crit than ST. (does ST proc seal fate?)
Combat: RvS does not advance bandit's guile. There may be merit to using it during deep insight--especially given how both energy and combo point ineffcient sinister strike is (they definitely need to address combat's incredibly slow combo point generation, imo), but definitely not outside of red.

I don't know the damage formula for ST offhand (I could check easily enough) so I don't know about the damage aspect of it).

but keep this in mind also:

ST is at the expense of versatility or anticipation. ST means going to a 4+ cycle for assassination (no more 5CP envenoms), ST means no more using anticipation to advance BG before using eviscerate. ST means carefully timing your HaT procs ala cata.

In most cases, ST will require considerable more attention to use effectively--especially for combat since its combo points are very valuable due to RB and the whole BG mechanic.

In any case, ST spam during shadow blades may be effective for all specs due to the number of extra combo points you can get in that 12 sec window.

[shalnath]

Subtlety is better. Plainly said. Mutilate doesn't provide the burst and utility even close to what Subtlety does.

I totally agree with you on utility. However I think you would be surprised at the kind of burst Shadow Blades and Vendetta can do when using Shuriken Toss to build combo points.

So in the end it does come down to the damage afterall, doesn't it?

No? At this point I just think you're being intentionally argumentative. You said that Shuriken Toss hit like a wet noodle and I explained why the damage of Shuriken Toss doesn't matter.

[Evolixe]

I said the CP builders hit like a wet noodle. So i guess you just misunderstood me.

Also, try shadowdance in combination with shadow blades and agility trinket. Then come back

[shalnath]

Ah, I see... sorry!

Yeah I usually play Subtlety so I know how devastating that combination can be, especially when you take Anticipation and use back-to-back Eviscerates.

[shadowboy]

The easiest way to nip ST in the bud as a combo builder without nerfing its damage is to add a 5yd minimum range.

[Sesshou]

Things to keep in mind regarding ST vs main combo builder per spec:

Assassination: ST does not proc blindside. ST spam = no dispatch. You can get up to 4 combo points for 55 energy for mutilating. At 15% crit, mutilate is about 21 energy per combo point, close to ST's. As you gain more crit, it will eventually outscale ST--mutilate scales far better with crit than ST. (does ST proc seal fate?)

Um 4cp per mut? Thats counting blindside then though which technically makes it 5 maximum. Mut if crit is 3 plus blindside if crit is 5 for 55 energy. 3xST if crit is 6cp. Actually as you gain more crit ST is further ahead for cp's. One of the nice things about mut is that it has 2 chances to crit and proc seal fate, but the higher crit, the higher chance both crit which doesn't do more (in terms of cp) than a single crit, but each individual ST critting will provide an extra cp, or if that wasn't clear, think about a 100% crit scenario where mut would gaurantee 3, blind side 2 (but only 30% of the time when it procs), and 3xST 6. Blindside is 30% anyway, and even if that happens and it crits, if you get the same 2/3 crits you end up with 5cp with ST as well without the 30% chance at the last 2.

Anyway, I think its pretty much irrelevant. I tried it in LFR and it wasn't horrible, but it was less than I was doing with mut. Could be a potentially interesting choice for high movement fights, but in general, I'm pretty sure it is less dps (granted I am still open to some real evidence to refute my anecdotal evidence).

[Ryme]

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/oyrng1ro9nlr2mjm/

Kill log on Elegon with ST, haven't read into it myself, stopped caring about if it works better or not, it's untold amounts of fun. Feels like you have a real rotation again.

[braxx]

"We think rogues are about where we want them."

the key word was 'about'.

[Coldkil]

the key word was 'about'.

The key words are "rogues in PvE are fine, we are looking at PvP".

[Kael]

The key words are "rogues in PvE are fine, we are looking at PvP".

I'm not entirely sure this is wrong, either. From what I've heard/read we're in deep for pvp, but I haven't felt behind in PvE other than some "oh GOD why am I playing melee" moments.

[Deleted]

So in the end it does come down to the damage afterall, doesn't it?

Well, it's not like we're tanks or healers...

[Lysah]

I'm not entirely sure this is wrong, either. From what I've heard/read we're in deep for pvp, but I haven't felt behind in PvE other than some "oh GOD why am I playing melee" moments.

I mostly feel the same, but I don't raid with any other melee but another rogue. It is hilarious to go from by far first to bottom of the list just because the fight changed from cleave to single target.

[Ryme]

As I said in another thread, our actual performance PvE-wise is not really a concern for me, how we achieve that performance is.

[Coldkil]

The key words are "rogues in PvE are fine, we are looking at PvP".

Auto quoting. I take "in PvE are fine" as "the class is perfectly designed and at the point we want", not as "you do enough dps".

[Kael]

...that seems likely. Only time will tell, if we get a post more than a line long at some other point in time.

[Smashysmashy]

Here's my log of Stone guardians 10m last night.
This is for constructive talent comparison and not flame wars of "you cant even kill 10m MV/learn to play rogue" e.t.c e.t.c.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/w...s2i/details/6/
From 21:40 onwards I was using the same combat spec + gear (p.s 2xdaggers cause I actually dont have a combat weapon >.>)(MS sub + thus wasn't needed but combat triumphs over everything on this fight) but using ST instead. The last few attempts (3 or 4 ish) I replaced ST with SS for adrenaline rush phases as energy was capping like crazy.

I found if my haste trinket proc'd I would struggle to prevent energy capping with bladeflurry up on ST, and definitely couldn't keep up with it on adrenaline rush.
Previous the taking ST I took versatility - which while isn't anticipation, is a pretty good talent for the guardians.

If anything this spec seems very suitable for the movement on the stone guardians.
(attempts also got better through-out the night, so assume DPS would mildly increase anyway.)

[shadowboy]

Um 4cp per mut? Thats counting blindside then though which technically makes it 5 maximum. Mut if crit is 3 plus blindside if crit is 5 for 55 energy. 3xST if crit is 6cp. Actually as you gain more crit ST is further ahead for cp's. One of the nice things about mut is that it has 2 chances to crit and proc seal fate, but the higher crit, the higher chance both crit which doesn't do more (in terms of cp) than a single crit, but each individual ST critting will provide an extra cp, or if that wasn't clear, think about a 100% crit scenario where mut would gaurantee 3, blind side 2 (but only 30% of the time when it procs), and 3xST 6. Blindside is 30% anyway, and even if that happens and it crits, if you get the same 2/3 crits you end up with 5cp with ST as well without the 30% chance at the last 2.

Anyway, I think its pretty much irrelevant. I tried it in LFR and it wasn't horrible, but it was less than I was doing with mut. Could be a potentially interesting choice for high movement fights, but in general, I'm pretty sure it is less dps (granted I am still open to some real evidence to refute my anecdotal evidence).

ST is NOT ahead of mut if you gain crit because mut has TWO chances to crit meaning as you gain crit, the extra combo point gain happens more rapidly than it does with ST. ST gains again as you approach 100% because at that point mut isn't gaining as much (as the chance of not having either hand crit becomes smaller). ST's gain is linear, whereas mutilate's is on an asymptotic curve as it approaches 100% crit. At 15% crit, mutilate gates 0.020 combo points per percentage of crit gain vs the 0.010 per percentage of crit for ST. In fact, ST doesn't gain more combo points per crit chance until about 65% crit. It is at that point that ST scales better.

Either way ST is not intended as a primary combo builder and you can count on a nerf to it. (and it very well should be).

[Kael]

I'd assumed BF wouldn't mirror ST because it doesn't seem to consider it a melee attack (MG), but perhaps I was wrong, seeing BF at 41%+ on your logs? I'm not online right now but if it's convenient for anyone to check, that's a pretty good question.

[Smashysmashy]

It does, if your next to a target + ST a distant target, the damage is still reflected.