Why does my group have so much bad luck with mages in raids

[Bryce]

Are we just thinking they can do way more then they do or what. But we've had 4-5 mages now. The first mage was really good, but he got fed up on H Spine and gquit and left the team. Well we find another one who was okish, but he'd just stand in the middle of nowhere on H Madness spamming arcane explosion not hitting a thing in sight. And we had him go arcane one time because he just absolutely sucked at fire and claimed he wasn't fishing for crits which we all knew he was because he would never use his combustion because he had no crits, etc. Well he went arcane and oom'd in 4 fucking seconds on the first platform. No joke on that one, then said on mumble I'm oom sorry can't pop time warp or dps. Didn't use any evocates or cookies or nothing to get mana back.

Fast forward to MoP raids and we have a mage who doesn't really seem to be there. He does shit for dps and ONLY does 52k max when we have our healer go dps and out dps him by 10k or more. Well, when the healer goes back to healing his dps drops back to 30-39k. Then the last mage we had was doing around 42k with 5k latency and says he's usually not that laggy, but he can't figure out how to work mumble and says well all my other servers I can connect to just fine use mumble. We gave him THREE mumble servers that were on three different hosts and none of them worked at all. He then gquits.

So, why is it we have such bad luck with mages. Are there no mages looking for a 10m group raiding Tu, Th, Sun 8pm to 12pm eastern time that use Mumble, has a mic and whatnot??

/endrant

[Jaylol]

...What...?

[wMw]

how dare u

[Deleted]

But wait, don't let a few bad experiences with terrible Mages kill your love for Mages.
We rock in suplying free food and portals

[Deleted]

Fast forward to MoP raids and we have a mage who doesn't really seem to be there. He does shit for dps and ONLY does 52k max

Damn I really need to work on my dps. Yesterday in LFR I was #1 on the first and the third boss with 52k.

[Deleted]

Ye! Us mages just love chilling in the back, and if someone complains... WE WHINE AND TROLL THEM LOLOLOL.



On a more serious note, just bad luck... there are very good mages out there

[reflection]

I'm usually at about 60k dps One the first boss with multiple targets even more It is a bit luck dependent. If you get a 100k ignite with all trinkets + prepot in the beginning combustion totally kicks ass

[Deleted]

Damn I really need to work on my dps. Yesterday in LFR I was #1 on the first and the third boss with 52k.

LFR you can do about 100k as fire, since all 3 adds are stacked together

60k is normal for normal mode at the moment.

And 60k singletarget dps (Feng) is ok as well...

52k as a mage on single target is also not that bad... keep in mind that we rely on gear as much as a warri does, no crits, no fun...

And there are fewer mages compared to cata... lvl 90 talent are simply not fun... think mages will become what warlocks were during cata.

[Deleted]

The first mage was really good, but he got fed up on H Spine and gquit and left the team. Well we find another one who was okish, but he'd just stand in the middle of nowhere on H Madness spamming arcane explosion not hitting a thing in sight. And we had him go arcane one time because he just absolutely sucked at fire and claimed he wasn't fishing for crits which we all knew he was because he would never use his combustion because he had no crits

Fast forward to MoP raids and we have a mage who doesn't really seem to be there. He does shit for dps and ONLY does 52k max when we have our healer go dps and out dps him by 10k or more. Well, when the healer goes back to healing his dps drops back to 30-39k.

So, why is it we have such bad luck with mages. Are there no mages looking for a 10m group raiding Tu, Th, Sun 8pm to 12pm eastern time that use Mumble, has a mic and whatnot??

/endrant

Point I'll be addressing are in bold.

What exactly did he get fed up with?

Combustion with a bad ignite and pyro on the target makes it hit like a piece of utter junk. If you want an example of this, in my raid last night my maximum combusts were ~1.6+M, my worst 250K. Considering Pyroblast (procced) crits for 200K~, it's almost not worth using combustion if this is going to be the case. Yes, it's still a DPS increase I agree, but it's so minimal it's sometimes better to wait and see if you're going to get a little lucky. You're also talking about Cataclysm, where Fire was much more affected by RNG than it is now. I don't condone the way he plays Arcane, though.

What setup do you have? Is it 10M or 25M? Also, what spec is/was he/she playing? What fight? 52K DPS isn't bad, especially if he's lacking buffs, dependent on spec, encounter and much more besides. Giving no specifics as to where he's pulling his DPS won't help you.


Also, and I don't mean to intentionally lay blame here, but what kind of recruiting process do you guys use? You say that since your best mage left you've had nothing but bad luck but *could* this be a slight desperation for a mage on your part, too?

LFR you can do about 100k as fire, since all 3 adds are stacked together

60k is normal for normal mode at the moment.

And 60k singletarget dps (Feng) is ok as well...

52k as a mage on single target is also not that bad... keep in mind that we rely on gear as much as a warri does, no crits, no fun...

And there are fewer mages compared to cata... lvl 90 talent are simply not fun... think mages will become what warlocks were during cata.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...e_Mage/?page=3

60K on Feng nets you a top 150 ranking as fire, top 30 as frost, number 1 as arcane. Just sayin'

[Deleted]

http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...e_Mage/?page=3

60K on Feng nets you a top 150 ranking as fire, top 30 as frost, number 1 as arcane. Just sayin'

I finished with 57 k on our first kill and I did not play very well... wait a week or 2 until everybody knows how to move etc then you will see a lot of mages with 60k.

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-4j...?s=6604&e=7077

But anyway... 52k is not that bad for single target unless you are a 24/7 pro-raider. Many other classes are not able to reach these numbers.

[Deleted]

I finished with 57 k on our first kill and I did not play very well... wait a week or 2 until everybody knows how to move etc then you will see a lot of mages with 60k.

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-4j...?s=6604&e=7077

But anyway... 52k is not that bad for single target unless you are a 24/7 pro-raider. Many other classes are not able to reach these numbers.

Yet you could play perfectly and pull less than that, such is the nature of Fire. Last night across three attempts (all sub-20%, final attempt was a kill) my DPS varied between 65K and 53K based purely on Combustions and luck. Didn't do anything differently and targeted RNG (Wildfire spark, Arcane Resonance) was generally in my favour, with little variance over the attempts. When we have more gear it'll be easier to tell who's a better player because, even now, Fire is RNG-based. I run 25% crit in raids and can still go stupid amounts of time without even Heating Up.

[Bryce]

The very first mage left because he got tired of progressing basically.

But, we're a 10m group. We're just really getting tired of our current mage only putting out the numbers when someone who never dpses competes with him. Not to mention he's really really slow at moving out of pools, etc. Not to mention he doesn't have a mic so it's kinda hard for him to call out certain things we would of normally assigned to him.

And you could probably say we're in desperate need of a mage, we have all the current buffs and were looking a mage because they're currently one of the highest dps out there no? And I'm trying not to sound like an ass when I post recruiting threads on the WoW forums, but at this point we want to make damn sure they actually know how to use and can talk on Mumble, because we all hate using Ventrilo because of the sound quality, etc on it.

[Deleted]

The very first mage left because he got tired of progressing basically.

Fair enough. Bit of a weird attitude considering that's what raiding is about, but OK ^^

But, we're a 10m group. We're just really getting tired of our current mage only putting out the numbers when someone who never dpses competes with him. Not to mention he's really really slow at moving out of pools, etc. Not to mention he doesn't have a mic so it's kinda hard for him to call out certain things we would of normally assigned to him.

And you could probably say we're in desperate need of a mage, we have all the current buffs and were looking a mage because they're currently one of the highest dps out there no? And I'm trying not to sound like an ass when I post recruiting threads on the WoW forums, but at this point we want to make damn sure they actually know how to use and can talk on Mumble, because we all hate using Ventrilo because of the sound quality, etc on it.

In all honesty, unless you're a hardcore group (which, doesn't look like you are), talking isn't a necessity, especially for a RDPS. When we raid there are only a few people who talk, and one of them is the raidleader, the others are healers. It helps, I agree, but personally I would rather they were a good player with decent awareness.
Again, what group composition do you run? Weirdly enough, losing 8% Spell damage and 5% Haste can hurt DPS pretty badly, and maybe when your healer goes DPS he gains some of those buffs which help bolster his DPS.

[scuac]

and ONLY does 52k max when we have our healer go dps and out dps him by 10k or more. Well, when the healer goes back to healing his dps drops back to 30-39k.

In all honesty, unless you're a hardcore group (which, doesn't look like you are), talking isn't a necessity, especially for a RDPS. When we raid there are only a few people who talk, and one of them is the raidleader, the others are healers. It helps, I agree, but personally I would rather they were a good player with decent awareness.
Again, what group composition do you run? Weirdly enough, losing 8% Spell damage and 5% Haste can hurt DPS pretty badly, and maybe when your healer goes DPS he gains some of those buffs which help bolster his DPS.

Just to reinforce what Serene said. The 5% haste buff is only provided by the three hybrid dps casters (moonkin, elem shaman, spriest), all of which usually are paired with a healing spec. So your healer going dps could have given a buff that was not there before and explain, to a certain extent, the loss of dps when he went back to healing.

[Bryce]

Our comp is:

BrM Monk
Blood DK
Disc/Holy Priest (has shadow off off spec that usually goes dps for 2 heal fights)
Resto Shammy
MW Monk
Demo Lock
BM Hunter (we're looking to replace him to, 30k on fights)
Feral Druid (going to his spriest next week when his friend (rogue) comes in)
Fire Mage (the one who only improves when he wants to, which isnt going to help progression at all)

Our highest dps is our lock which hits 60-70k average on every fight and is basically the lowest geared. Locks aren't even the top dps spec, mages should be way over him according to theorycrafts, etc and our group. Right now he barely hits 39k unless like I said he's getting beat by off-spec dps. He also only moves out when someone who isn't ms dps actually takes less damage from avoidable stuff than him.

Right now our top 2 dps are the lock and druid who sit around 56-70k average on every fight.

[scuac]

Our comp is:

BrM Monk
Blood DK
Disc/Holy Priest (has shadow off off spec that usually goes dps for 2 heal fights)
Resto Shammy
MW Monk
Demo Lock
BM Hunter (we're looking to replace him to, 30k on fights)
Feral Druid (going to his spriest next week when his friend (rogue) comes in)
Fire Mage (the one who only improves when he wants to, which isnt going to help progression at all)

Our highest dps is our lock which hits 60-70k average on every fight and is basically the lowest geared. Locks aren't even the top dps spec, mages should be way over him according to theorycrafts, etc and our group. Right now he barely hits 39k unless like I said he's getting beat by off-spec dps. He also only moves out when someone who isn't ms dps actually takes less damage from avoidable stuff than him.

Right now our top 2 dps are the lock and druid who sit around 56-70k average on every fight.

All the sims I have seen in the past few months always put affliction locks as the top dps in the game. But that is irrelevant to the point at hand. Seems that the problem is more the player than the class. My question to you is: what do you hope to hear in a Mage forum to help you? As I see it, you are the raid leader so you can either encourage him to get better (have him read the class guides, encounters, etc.) and help him improve, or let him go.

[Glimmerr]

One of your issues is that you read to much in to theorycrafts, they are sims to give you an overall picture, they are not going to be valid in all situations. If it was a patch work fight with all BiS gear and you don't have to do nothing but spam buttons then sure use that information. Most fights are very dynamic and have multiple aspects to them, so asking someone to always be on top or near the top exspecially mages probably won't haven't every time.

Mages are a class that depends on procs and very gear dependant. Fire is still about getting that RNG factor going even though they gave us heating up and some other talents, but you still have to crit and if you are not critting you aren't getting your large ignites which still stinks. Arcane is all about mana management and so far it is well behind the other in dps in all of the fight encounters currently out. Frost is good, but if you are lucky with Fire you will blow frost out the water. Frost is a little more difficult to play now since you have multiple spells you are using all the time, so you have to be doing something each second to keep yourself going on Frost.

It seems like your recruiting process might need to be revamped and set some standards in what you are recruiting, plus having a recruit period allows you to see how this person is before offering them a final slot in your raid. But you have to make the determination on who and what type of players you want to recruit.

[Menphis]

When we have more gear it'll be easier to tell who's a better player because, even now, Fire is RNG-based. I run 25% crit in raids and can still go stupid amounts of time without even Heating Up.

I really agree with you on this.

When I have bad luck, I would mostly be casting fire balls only for like 30 seconds or more, because I can't get a single crit.
And I also have around 25% crit with buffs.
30sec+ is quite long for a boss fight. (Of course keeping living bomb up too)
And even after I get a single crit and force a hotstreak via fire blast,
my Fireball followed by a Hotstreak Pyro, both won't crit, resulting a shitty ignite.

Really, even with heating up and forcing a hotstreak with fire blast, Fire is still RNG and relies on luck.

Don't expect mages to do around the same DPS as listed near the top of WoL or sims.
The numbers of those are when mages have decent or lots of luck.

[xChurch]

Only advice I can really say is that you really shouldn't be searching high and low for a skilled mage. Just look for a skilled player, unless you're specifically in need of something a mage provides your raid (Food and Portals don't count), there is no reason to just have to cast a net into the recruitment pool and throw back any non-mages you happen to see. Basing your recruitment on who shows up high on sims seems a silly way to do it to me. I can usually hit the #1 spot on dps in my raid but I wouldn't accept that it has to do mostly with what class I play, I prefer to think its because I'm an experienced raider who knows his class and has good raid awareness. Better you find a class who happens to be siming on the bottom but can still pull acceptable dps and contribute to the raid in the form of pulling off raid mechanics and of course the big part of MoP raiding, knowing how to survive so your healers can pull out a fight without running oom from healing your slacker butt the whole time =D.

[Deleted]

Our comp is:

BrM Monk
Blood DK
Disc/Holy Priest (has shadow off off spec that usually goes dps for 2 heal fights)
Resto Shammy
MW Monk
Demo Lock
BM Hunter (we're looking to replace him to, 30k on fights)
Feral Druid (going to his spriest next week when his friend (rogue) comes in)
Fire Mage (the one who only improves when he wants to, which isnt going to help progression at all)

Our highest dps is our lock which hits 60-70k average on every fight and is basically the lowest geared. Locks aren't even the top dps spec, mages should be way over him according to theorycrafts, etc and our group. Right now he barely hits 39k unless like I said he's getting beat by off-spec dps. He also only moves out when someone who isn't ms dps actually takes less damage from avoidable stuff than him.

Right now our top 2 dps are the lock and druid who sit around 56-70k average on every fight.

That's where one of the problems is. Your theorycrafts/Sims are wrong, and you're not looking into where the root of the problem will be.

Firstly, look at your group comp. You are attack-power heavy, and when your Priest isn't DPSing both Lock and Mage are missing 5% Haste, but this will affect your Mage far more than your lock. If your lock were Affliction, it would be different. Thing is, Fire is still a DoT spec, and Haste thresholds are important to hit. By not always having 5% Haste, he's losing out on a decent amount of crit% (~200-400 rating at least, worth nearly 1%) from trying to reforge to get an extra tick on his LB/Combustion and thus loses out on the chance of gaining larger ignites and thus, in theory, more DPS.
On the flip-side, your lock is playing Demo. I could be wrong, but I'm *fairly* sure Demo goes Mastery > Crit > Haste, meaning that he doesn't suffer as much from not having 5% Haste.

Secondly, your theorycrafting. Locks ARE the top DPS class at the moment according to sims, but there's also the point that someone else made: Sims aren't 100% accurate, and can't always be trusted. According to Sims, both Frost AND Arcane are ahead of Fire on DPS, but that's not very accurate compared to what's currently happening in raid environments. You're much better off looking at Logs and comparing them to something like Raidbots, as that's a much more realistic view of how classes/specs are currently performing.

By 'Lowest Geared', what item level are we talking about, and how far behind the mage is your lock?

Yes, realistically your Mage *should* be doing more DPS than he is, this isn't something I disagree on. However, if you expect him to be top dps every fight just cos he's playing Fire and you think that's where Fire is, you're definitely expecting too much of them.