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  1. #21
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Destil View Post
    When what other stats are capped? Like Hit? Haste? Doesn't Haste effect Energy Regen.
    Monk's are going to be a lot like DK's in you can't really say what is going on with them without a log + armory. His reforg/gemming probably isn't the reason he is getting hit so hard it's probably a play style issue.

    If you look at this thread you can see where just by looking at a log I could reason out he was taking a lot of extra damage just by how he handled our active mitigation.
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...2#post18653532

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    so really, gemming consists of getting expertise, haste, or crit, depending on what you need more.
    Bit of a side question. Double secondary stats will always beat pure agi? So if i'm happy at 7.5% hit and crit and want to gem for something else...

    I guess what i'm trying to figure out is how much each stat is worth to be able to determine when Agi might be better vs raw haste or even agi+haste. And when would you need more crit than haste?

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Zene View Post
    Bit of a side question. Double secondary stats will always beat pure agi? So if i'm happy at 7.5% hit and crit and want to gem for something else...

    I guess what i'm trying to figure out is how much each stat is worth to be able to determine when Agi might be better vs raw haste or even agi+haste. And when would you need more crit than haste?
    For the most part, yes. Agility is a great stat, but it isn't worth double of our better secondary stats. The only time getting agi might be fruitful is if you have a red or yellow socket with a 120 agi bonus and you use an agi/haste gem in there.

    And it's not necessarily about WHEN you would need more, it's about HOW MUCH you need. The brewmaster thread on ElitistJerks has a link to a spreadsheet which can calculate your personal stat weight. You can use that to figure out how much of a stat you need and gem / reforge accordingly.

  4. #24
    Brewmaster stat priority is still being theorycrafted. it's heated because different stats are good for different fights.


    Monks are a tricky tank. ALL of thier surviability is active. they get a small health boost, and no armor boost. stagger takes some of the spikeyness from having only leather armor, but the damage reduced is dealt back over time. they get a small, passive boost (5%) to parry. the standard agility => dodge conversion, and that's that. Leather dosen't typically come with tanking stats, nor are tanking 2h weapons very common. (even tanking 1h's are pretty uncommon this time around, and they always come with str, so it's moot anyway.)

    Expertise cap is very important. A missed attack = no chi = no mitigation. The same is also true when the monk is stunned, no chi incoming, no defenses (and they still don't have that extra set of armor that, say, a death knight or druid tank gets for being in tank mode.

    It isn't impossible to tank with them, and it shouldn't hinder your progression if he's good at the active mitigation model. But going from paladins, who were one of the more 'passive' tanks in cata to brewmasters is kind of a night/day comparison.

    Part of the problem is that a lot of people are still arguing over the optimal stat priority. Some people say "Crit isn't as good as parry" some people put more value into mastery. The reality, (in my eyes) is that the gear priority for monks is HIGHLY dependant on fight. For magic fights, dodge and parry do nothing for monks, and mastery is chief. for melee fights mastery is a flat % reduction, where dodge + parry = 0 damage. Haste = more energy (and therefore more chi) and crit gives more dodge through more stacks of elusive brew. (where a slower weapon auto attack crit will generate up to 3 stacks, and dual-wielding crits will be as low as one stack.)

    tl;dr:
    Hit/Expertise/haste = more chi = less incoming damage. Most avoidance is attack based. Read up on my links below. Ensuring shuffle (which gives +20% parry) uptime is dependant on your ability to land blackout kick. (which also restores health when used from the front). Jab, Tiger Strike, Keg Smash are all dependant on melee hit. I believe Expel harm needs spell hit (which is 7.5% hit + 7.5% expertise, and heals the brewmaster and gives chi regardless of it dealing damage)
    Crit/Dodge/Parry = good for melee fights. works the same as other classes.
    Mastery = good for magic fights. (see http://www.wowdb.com/spells/115069-s...-the-sturdy-ox and http://www.wowdb.com/spells/117906-m...lusive-brawler ) their mastery spreads out a portion of incoming damage over time, putting it on a debuff.
    Haste increases energy regeneration.
    Crit gives stacks of elusive brew (which is a 9 sec cd ability that consumes said stacks to give the brewmaster 30% dodge, lasting 1sec per stack consumed.)

    A high crit means a high elusive brew uptime (each WHITE crit gives stacks dependant on weapon speed, slower weapons generate more stacks). High haste means more chi to spend on mitigation. chi generation is almost wholly dependant on energy regen(haste) and ability to land chi-generating attacks(hit/expertise). Mastery increases the amount of damage per hit moved to the pool of stagger. Stamina increases health, and therefore increases your capacity to stagger damage. Agility increases damage and dodge. Parry is weighted before dodge because it has lower diminishing returns. Your priority should change from fight to fight, which means a good monk is going to have several tanking sets, and will probably step on the toes of leather DPS to get those tanking sets.

  5. #25
    your tank is prolly looking at noxxic, noxxic lists crit and exp to 15% above dodge and parry and haste
    The theory is, if nothing is is getted dodged or parried, your consistently getting procs, and your mitigation abilities aren't missing
    It's not the great who are strong...
    It's the strong who are great...

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by blackblade View Post
    Brewmaster stat priority is still being theorycrafted. it's heated because different stats are good for different fights.


    Monks are a tricky tank. ALL of thier surviability is active. they get a small health boost, and no armor boost. stagger takes some of the spikeyness from having only leather armor, but the damage reduced is dealt back over time. they get a small, passive boost (5%) to parry. the standard agility => dodge conversion, and that's that. Leather dosen't typically come with tanking stats, nor are tanking 2h weapons very common. (even tanking 1h's are pretty uncommon this time around, and they always come with str, so it's moot anyway.)

    Expertise cap is very important. A missed attack = no chi = no mitigation. The same is also true when the monk is stunned, no chi incoming, no defenses (and they still don't have that extra set of armor that, say, a death knight or druid tank gets for being in tank mode.

    It isn't impossible to tank with them, and it shouldn't hinder your progression if he's good at the active mitigation model. But going from paladins, who were one of the more 'passive' tanks in cata to brewmasters is kind of a night/day comparison.

    Part of the problem is that a lot of people are still arguing over the optimal stat priority. Some people say "Crit isn't as good as parry" some people put more value into mastery. The reality, (in my eyes) is that the gear priority for monks is HIGHLY dependant on fight. For magic fights, dodge and parry do nothing for monks, and mastery is chief. for melee fights mastery is a flat % reduction, where dodge + parry = 0 damage. Haste = more energy (and therefore more chi) and crit gives more dodge through more stacks of elusive brew. (where a slower weapon auto attack crit will generate up to 3 stacks, and dual-wielding crits will be as low as one stack.)

    tl;dr:
    Hit/Expertise/haste = more chi = less incoming damage. Most avoidance is attack based. Read up on my links below. Ensuring shuffle (which gives +20% parry) uptime is dependant on your ability to land blackout kick. (which also restores health when used from the front). Jab, Tiger Strike, Keg Smash are all dependant on melee hit. I believe Expel harm needs spell hit (which is 7.5% hit + 7.5% expertise, and heals the brewmaster and gives chi regardless of it dealing damage)
    Crit/Dodge/Parry = good for melee fights. works the same as other classes.
    Mastery = good for magic fights. (see http://www.wowdb.com/spells/115069-s...-the-sturdy-ox and http://www.wowdb.com/spells/117906-m...lusive-brawler ) their mastery spreads out a portion of incoming damage over time, putting it on a debuff.
    Haste increases energy regeneration.
    Crit gives stacks of elusive brew (which is a 9 sec cd ability that consumes said stacks to give the brewmaster 30% dodge, lasting 1sec per stack consumed.)

    A high crit means a high elusive brew uptime (each WHITE crit gives stacks dependant on weapon speed, slower weapons generate more stacks). High haste means more chi to spend on mitigation. chi generation is almost wholly dependant on energy regen(haste) and ability to land chi-generating attacks(hit/expertise). Mastery increases the amount of damage per hit moved to the pool of stagger. Stamina increases health, and therefore increases your capacity to stagger damage. Agility increases damage and dodge. Parry is weighted before dodge because it has lower diminishing returns. Your priority should change from fight to fight, which means a good monk is going to have several tanking sets, and will probably step on the toes of leather DPS to get those tanking sets.
    Stagger only turns MELEE damage into a DoT. Mastery is horrible for magic fights. Dodge and Parry are also very low, so if someone's saying parry is better than crit, there's something weird going on because crit provides significant bonuses to two different types of active mitigation (healing and avoidance) while parry just provides one.

  7. #27
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    I believe one thing also needs to be illustrated and that is how EXP works since MOP. Many seem to think there is still a "softcap" however as EXP no longer double dips at any point in time to contribute to both dodge and parry removal the old notion of EXP loosing value past 7.5% no longer exists.

    Shamelessly stolen from DEVLOC over at ask mr robot.

    This is how Expertise works now.

    0% Expertise =
    7.5% change to be dodged
    7.5% chance to be parried

    5% Expertise =
    2.5% chance to be dodged
    7.5% chance to be parried

    7.5% Expertise =
    0.0% chance to be dodged
    7.5% chance to be parried

    10% Expertise =
    0.0% chance to be dodged
    5.0% chance to be parried

    15% Expertise =
    0.0% chance to be dodged
    0.0% chance to be parried


    This is why many don't stop at the old 7.5% because they have not taken off any chance to be parried at all and only worked off the chance to be dodged.

  8. #28
    Immortal Destil's Avatar
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    I'm actually a complete moron and forgot his name didn't have characters....

    I got it mixed up with one of our officer's Alts names -____- Sorry guys.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...r/Bumen/simple

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    Stagger only turns MELEE damage into a DoT. Mastery is horrible for magic fights. Dodge and Parry are also very low, so if someone's saying parry is better than crit, there's something weird going on because crit provides significant bonuses to two different types of active mitigation (healing and avoidance) while parry just provides one.
    So much ignorance/mis-information for monks.

    I wish that before somebody was allowed to enter an instance as a tank they would have to read your guide.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by bobyboucher View Post
    I believe one thing also needs to be illustrated and that is how EXP works since MOP. Many seem to think there is still a "softcap" however as EXP no longer double dips at any point in time to contribute to both dodge and parry removal the old notion of EXP loosing value past 7.5% no longer exists.

    Shamelessly stolen from DEVLOC over at ask mr robot.

    This is how Expertise works now.

    This is why many don't stop at the old 7.5% because they have not taken off any chance to be parried at all and only worked off the chance to be dodged.
    I wasn't aware this was an issue between any of the theorycrafters on this forum, nor do I think it's really a serious issue... it just means expertise is better than it was and even then, it doesn't really matter how good it is in terms of attacks prevented from being parried per point past softcap when our chi generators are getting parried. In its own way, its somewhat like the haste caps for DoT classes. Getting more haste after a plateau is okay, but it's better to do an all or nothing thing. It's not necessarily like that for expertise, but at the same time, you do want to ultimately strive for 15% expertise. It will just make things better overall.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sumatran View Post
    So much ignorance/mis-information for monks.

    I wish that before somebody was allowed to enter an instance as a tank they would have to read your guide.
    I wouldn't necessary go THAT far... maybe pointing them to a good source if they have trouble.

  11. #31
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    His gemming and reforging could benefit from an optimizer. Just quick and easy see all the changes this suggests: http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/u...rmreaver/bumen

    I don't really don't think the 4.61% haste he could get from the above is going to change the fact he is taking to much damage. Would again suggest posting a log file of a fight so we can see buff uptime and ability use frequency. I think it should be a requirement for any "so and so takes to much damage" thread as Monk mitigation is almost impossible to gauge without logs.

    It's like when DK's would do the same, you'd show them how to balance parry/dodge for like 0.5% more avoidance then they post a log and they are coasting along at like 4 DS/min and your like "well there's your problem".
    Last edited by SurrealNight; 2012-10-10 at 08:07 PM.

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  12. #32
    he's a mess. he needs to just read a guide, the guide on here will get him going. expertise and hit aren't his issue though, overally he's gemming weird, meta is wrong, chants are weird

    but even after all that, i'd bet he's not keeping shuffle up. he's mostly just standing there with 25% damge reduction via armor and taking hits. he's like a rogue tanking. that's the problem when you don't ACTIVELY mitigate all that damage

  13. #33
    Does he know what Purifying Brew is?

    Also he is always using Glyph of Guard?
    Last edited by HollerTH; 2012-10-11 at 05:24 AM.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by blackblade View Post
    uptime is dependant on your ability to land blackout kick. (which also restores health when used from the front).

    Bok only heals when hitting from the front for Windwalkers. Not Brewmasters. Its part of the Combat Conditioning passive.

    YAY misinformation!

  15. #35
    http://elitistjerks.com/f99/t129790-...iscussion/p15/

    Read the post from Venyasure

    He has a very detailed post about how to gear your monk at this point... People should read the discussion going back a few pages tho

    TL;DR Don't go above hard expertise cap... Go for haste/crit > the rest depending on your playstyle

  16. #36
    BREWmaster - the spec is specially designed to work better if you're off your face while playing - both in and out of game, perhaps he's not drinking enough at his keyboard? =p

  17. #37
    In my (albeit limited) experience, glyph of guard is bad. That's a lot of unnecessary physical damage that he's taking. That's a glyph that should be swapped in only for magic heavy fights, IMO.

  18. #38
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monteverdi View Post
    In my (albeit limited) experience, glyph of guard is bad. That's a lot of unnecessary physical damage that he's taking. That's a glyph that should be swapped in only for magic heavy fights, IMO.
    Right now it is bugged and causes your Ox Statue to not Guard on the party/raid, so it's a really bad glyph atm (see comments on tank sticky).

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by SurrealNight View Post
    Right now it is bugged and causes your Ox Statue to not Guard on the party/raid, so it's a really bad glyph atm (see comments on tank sticky).
    Yuck! I wasn't aware of that bug, not that I've used the glyph anyway. That's pretty bad.
    Last edited by Monteverdi; 2012-10-11 at 05:09 PM.

  20. #40
    I'm trying to figure out why my monk is taking so much damage from the 3rd boss in MP. His shadow damage totally messes me up, and I know I've been called squishy a few times. I constantly try to have my active mitigation skills up and I got a few addons to help me manage but I'm wondering if I'm missing something. I have my world of logs and my armory, but I'd like to have this conversation in PM's. I'd really appreciate some advice.

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