Women, Men & Sex

[Laize]

No, you're looking to justify it so you can justify your own actions, by the sounds of things. People have a problem with the community because they attempt to objectify women and relationships, for the sake of "getting laid." They have a very childish mentality; why should anyone be supportive of said community?

You actually haven't looked into it at all. Read The Game.

The goals of most members are to get a girlfriend and have a healthy relationship. However, in the past they've had abysmal luck with women. My point is that lonely men, who are emotionally damaged and looking for a way to change what they've been getting, find the PUA community. It offers a pretty compelling siren song for some men.

To men like that, unhealthy, purely sex driven relationships are head and shoulders superior to nothing at all. There's a distinct lack of support for men like that too. What's your first reaction if a man was 30 and told you he'd never had a girlfriend? If you're like most people, you'd probably think he was a weirdo and not want to associate with him... or at least offer your (unsolicited) opinion of what he was doing wrong when he might not be comfortable with that. Or you'll say "there's plenty of fish" or "someone for everyone" or some such meaningless drivel.

Well, the PUA community accepts him. Are you surprised when such people turn out emotionally unhealthy?

I've been there. Their tactics work. And it is a thousand times better than simply being lonely. My issue is it's more of a cult (Appealing to the disenfranchised as a way to find community is how just about every cult in history starts off) and didn't lead me to what I really wanted.

If you asked a lonely late-20s guy whether they'd prefer being labeled a misogynist while getting laid or a nice guy who never gets a girlfriend... they'll pick the misogynist. Every time. I'm pretty confident in using an absolute there, too.

---------- Post added 2012-10-10 at 11:13 PM ----------

Yet too many guys can't figure that out and instead rage about how unfair women are.

No, I'm saying that when women are honest about it, their position is unassailable. When they just string a guy along even though he's made his feelings obvious (at least at one point), their "just being nice" turns into "unintentional cruelty".

[DEATHETERNAL]

So when you see a girl walking down the street is your first thought: "hmm, I'd like to f**k her"?

Quite often that is the first random thought that comes to mind before I consciously form directed and purposeful thoughts.

Do you think that the only reason guys and friends with girls is bc there is the underlying want to have sex with them and the slight possibility that some day she may let her guard down and let that happen?

No, I am friends with some females because I help people who need it. As such, some wish to be friends, and as a gentlemen, it would not be fitting to simply reject friendships when offered.

[Torq]

You actually haven't looked into it at all. Read The Game.

The goals of most members are to get a girlfriend and have a healthy relationship. However, in the past they've had abysmal luck with women. My point is that lonely men, who are emotionally damaged and looking for a way to change what they've been getting, find the PUA community. It offers a pretty compelling siren song for some men.

To men like that, unhealthy, purely sex driven relationships are head and shoulders superior to nothing at all. There's a distinct lack of support for men like that too. What's your first reaction if a man was 30 and told you he'd never had a girlfriend? If you're like most people, you'd probably think he was a weirdo and not want to associate with him... or at least offer your (unsolicited) opinion of what he was doing wrong when he might not be comfortable with that. Or you'll say "there's plenty of fish" or "someone for everyone" or some such meaningless drivel.

Well, the PUA community accepts him. Are you surprised when such people turn out emotionally unhealthy?

I've been there. Their tactics work. And it is a thousand times better than simply being lonely. My issue is it's more of a cult (Appealing to the disenfranchised as a way to find community is how just about every cult in history starts off) and didn't lead me to what I really wanted.

If you asked a lonely late-20s guy whether they'd prefer being labeled a misogynist while getting laid or a nice guy who never gets a girlfriend... they'll pick the misogynist. Every time. I'm pretty confident in using an absolute there, too.

So wait... Let me get this straight. You're saying, if I met a 30-year old, and wanted to offer him some pointers as to how to find a girl, it'd be entirely unwelcome (and rude, apparently), but it's okay to tell the guy about this book, that tells him how to get women into bed?

And no, not every guy would pick misogyny. You don't need a women to fulfill your sexual needs; you might want one to fulfill your desires, but one is absolutely not required to fulfill any needs.

I can't say I've "never had a girlfriend," but I've certainly had long periods of time where I have been alone. I've also had periods of time where I've been without a girlfriend, but still have been getting laid. Getting laid isn't superior to just being lonely if what you really want is an actual relationship. If you think it is, then you've got some pretty unrealistic ideals of what being in a relationship is really like.

In fact, if that's the case, I'd say stick with the non-committal sex, honestly... otherwise you'll just end up even more disappointed at the end of your first relationship than you were before you got into it.

[Laize]

So wait... Let me get this straight. You're saying, if I met a 30-year old, and wanted to offer him some pointers as to how to find a girl, it'd be entirely unwelcome (and rude, apparently), but it's okay to tell the guy about this book, that tells him how to get women into bed?

I said if the opinion was unsolicited it would be unwelcome. If it was "plenty of fish in the sea", however, it would be dismissive of his problems and not resonate anyway. I'm simply explaining why the PUA community exists and thrives. It gets new members by being nonjudgemental and most members came from the same place others came from. It thrives by working.

And no, not every guy would pick misogyny. You don't need a women to fulfill your sexual needs; you might want one to fulfill your desires, but one is absolutely not required to fulfill any needs.

Mmm... nope. Still certain every guy would pick misogyny over being alone forever. If you've never been in that situation then you have no basis to comment.

I can't say I've "never had a girlfriend," but I've certainly had long periods of time where I have been alone. I've also had periods of time where I've been without a girlfriend, but still have been getting laid. Getting laid isn't superior to just being lonely if what you really want is an actual relationship. If you think it is, then you've got some pretty unrealistic ideals of what being in a relationship is really like.

In fact, if that's the case, I'd say stick with the non-committal sex, honestly... otherwise you'll just end up even more disappointed at the end of your first relationship than you were before you got into it.

See the problem is that the people who come to these communities are treated like this. JUST like this. "I've gone periods without a girlfriend and still gotten laid. It's not all it's cracked up to be." You're not coming from a place these guys will understand. You're dismissive of the fact that they can't get either a relationship or noncommittal sex. It's not something they understand.

To someone who's in their late 20s and has had appallingly bad luck with women, they have no basis to ground the distinction between noncommittal sex and a relationship. In fact, in my case, I viewed noncommittal sex as an unpleasant (Yes, unpleasant) means to an end. They have a very different perspective on things and coming at it from the point of view where something is wrong with them only serves to push them away.

I, personally, view the PUA community as a group of men who use dishonest means to get women to do what they want. It works, but it's manipulative. Alls fair in love and war, so they say.

However, being a former member of said community I can honestly say that the reason they do it is not because it's their goal to be scumbags. Some do it just to get laid. Most do it because they've had no luck with women in the past and want nothing more than to be (or at least feel) somewhat normal. The first rule of "The Game" is that if you keep doing what you've been doing, you'll keep getting what you've been getting. It also offers a path to change what you've been doing and get superior results to what you've been getting.

To people who've never been laid or in a relationship, even noncommittal sex is a huge leap in the right direction.

[The Ogdru Jahad]

I think it's funny when people say that once you get a girlfriend/boyfriend you can't look at the opposite sex and think of anything remotely sexual anymore. Just because you're in a relationship doesn't mean that your mentality and thought process will change. You can't just stop thinking about something because of a certain circumstance such as a relationship. When a guy is in a relationship, and they're out to dinner, and a perfect 10 walks by, for a few seconds, he's thinking of that girl and not his actual girlfriend. There is no way around that. My dad loves my mom and he'd be the first to admit Anne Hathaway is bangin.

[Wells]

Maybe the kind of attitude that accepts being awful to women as an alternative to being alone is part of the reason said guys are having a hard time actually getting a relationship.

[Torq]

I said if the opinion was unsolicited it would be unwelcome. If it was "plenty of fish in the sea", however, it would be dismissive of his problems and not resonate anyway. I'm simply explaining why the PUA community exists and thrives. It gets new members by being nonjudgemental and most members came from the same place others came from. It thrives by working.

Certainly doesn't help them actually find a meaningful relationship; and anyone with any sense can tell that it'll do nothing more than hurt you in the long run.

Mmm... nope. Still certain every guy would pick misogyny over being alone forever. If you've never been in that situation then you have no basis to comment.

Mmmm nope. Until you're every man who's been in that situation, you have no basis to speak for all of them. So yeah, you're making a gigantic assumption for which you have no basis, aside from your own anecdotal experiences.

See the problem is that the people who come to these communities are treated like this. JUST like this. "I've gone periods without a girlfriend and still gotten laid. It's not all it's cracked up to be." You're not coming from a place these guys will understand. You're dismissive of the fact that they can't get either a relationship or noncommittal sex. It's not something they understand.

To someone who's in their late 20s and has had appallingly bad luck with women, they have no basis to ground the distinction between noncommittal sex and a relationship. In fact, in my case, I viewed noncommittal sex as an unpleasant (Yes, unpleasant) means to an end. They have a very different perspective on things and coming at it from the point of view where something is wrong with them only serves to push them away.

You realize, of course, that I'm talking about the "post-getting-laid" potion of this whole thing... right? Or are you just that bad at reading?

If anything, I'm more qualified to speak on that subject because I've experienced all those stages: being alone and not getting laid, being along and getting laid, and being in a relationship. Those who haven't been in all those stages can't rightly say one is better than the one they've never been in. They assume such, and that's a huge part of the problem in the first place.

Unrealistic expectations lead to ignorant assumptions.

[Laize]

Maybe the kind of attitude that accepts being awful to women as an alternative to being alone is part of the reason said guys are having a hard time actually getting a relationship.

You still don't get it. It starts off as guys putting women on a pedestal. It doesn't start off with chauvinism. It starts off with guys who are socially awkward and have a hard time dealing with women.

It appeals to the logical part of their brain with sound logic (keep doing what you've been doing, etc).

It provides basic steps to changing what you've been doing.

The end result is someone who's been conditioned not to respect women. The unfortunate truth of the matter is that it works. Or at least it works better than what they'd been doing prior.

You're assuming I agree with the results. I don't. I just fully understand where they come from and why they do it.

---------- Post added 2012-10-11 at 12:17 AM ----------

Certainly doesn't help them actually find a meaningful relationship; and anyone with any sense can tell that it'll do nothing more than hurt you in the long run.

That's called hindsight. It happens to, I'm sure, everyone who's abided by the PUA guidelines.

Mmmm nope. Until you're every man who's been in that situation, you have no basis to speak for all of them. So yeah, you're making a gigantic assumption for which you have no basis, aside from your own anecdotal experiences.

Still confident any man in that situation would choose the view where some people think he's a misogynist rather than the view where he's alone forever with everyone commenting on what's wrong with him.

You realize, of course, that I'm talking about the "post-getting-laid" potion of this whole thing... right? Or are you just that bad at reading?

If anything, I'm more qualified to speak on that subject because I've experienced all those stages: being alone and not getting laid, being along and getting laid, and being in a relationship. Those who haven't been in all those stages can't rightly say one is better than the one they've never been in. They assume such, and that's a huge part of the problem in the first place.

Unrealistic expectations lead to ignorant assumptions.

I don't know how old you were when you lost your virginity nor do I care. I'm reasonably sure it wasn't 30, though, like some of the people in the book. These are people who've gone their entire lives not knowing anything other than what they've experienced. It's like the Allegory of the Cave.

They've only known one thing their entire lives, how can you possibly expect them to believe what someone on the outside has to say until they see it for themselves?

[Itisamuh]

Maybe the kind of attitude that accepts being awful to women as an alternative to being alone is part of the reason said guys are having a hard time actually getting a relationship.

I rarely agree with Wells on anything, but I'd have to say this is pretty spot on. No offense Laize, but insinuating that all guys would rather be viewed as a woman hater who chooses to be alone than a nice guy who's had bad luck with women is absurd. I'm a guy, and I've gone through long periods of being alone. It really doesn't bother me a bit, and when a girl asks why I haven't dated much, I'm upfront about it. Hiding behind a lame excuse like misogyny is incredibly insecure. A nice guy will eventually get appreciated by a mature girl. Someone who makes everyone think he's an ass will only go downhill as they age.

[Wells]

I don't see much difference between the guy who treats every woman as a potential lay and the guy who puts women up on a pedestal to be honest.

[Laize]

I don't see much difference between the guy who treats every woman as a potential lay and the guy who puts women up on a pedestal to be honest.

That's your prerogative. But if you treat them both with derision (especially the latter) all you're going to do is reinforce their position and help neither them nor the women they deal with in the future.

---------- Post added 2012-10-11 at 12:22 AM ----------

I rarely agree with Wells on anything, but I'd have to say this is pretty spot on. No offense Laize, but insinuating that all guys would rather be viewed as a woman hater who chooses to be alone than a nice guy who's had bad luck with women is absurd. I'm a guy, and I've gone through long periods of being alone. It really doesn't bother me a bit, and when a girl asks why I haven't dated much, I'm upfront about it. Hiding behind a lame excuse like misogyny is incredibly insecure. A nice guy will eventually get appreciated by a mature girl. Someone who makes everyone think he's an ass will only go downhill as they age.

I don't understand why no one seems to grasp the fact that there's a world of difference between "long periods of being alone" and "been alone his entire life". Look up the allegory of the cave. It's an apt metaphor. Once you've left the cave you can never go back and relate to the people in the cave again.

[Vokal]

I just like to fuck.

SoHawtBro.

[Itisamuh]

That's your prerogative. But if you treat them both with derision (especially the latter) all you're going to do is reinforce their position and help neither them nor the women they deal with in the future.

---------- Post added 2012-10-11 at 12:22 AM ----------



I don't understand why no one seems to grasp the fact that there's a world of difference between "long periods of being alone" and "been alone his entire life". Look up the allegory of the cave. It's an apt metaphor. Once you've left the cave you can never go back and relate to the people in the cave again.

I just can't agree. I think after about a year of being alone, you're pretty much in the same boat as someone who's always been alone, physically and mentally. The emotional rush of being with someone, the physical relief of having someone to keep your needs in check, and the bitterness of the breakup are all long gone at that point. But even supposing I hadn't ever dated, I'd still stick to my principles. Not everyone feels the need to pretend to be something they aren't to excuse themselves, and while what you're saying may apply to some people, you shouldn't say it applies to all guys. It doesn't.

[Deleted]

I just can't agree. I think after about a year of being alone, you're pretty much in the same boat as someone who's always been alone, physically and mentally.

No, just no. I've been alone for over a year few times, and I'm sure as hell it's nowhere near as bad as living up to your 30's with no encounters with the opposite sex at all. You can't undo poppin' your cherry.

[Laize]

Hers.

No, just no. I've been alone for over a year few times, and I'm sure as hell it's nowhere near as bad as living up to your 30's with no encounters with the opposite sex at all. You can't undo poppin' your cherry.

Exactly. And don't think its just about loneliness either. Its also about society's view of you. Think about the last ctime you met someone socially awkward. Did you treat him with understanding or did you avoid him? If you met a 25-28 year old virgin would you think he was a perfectly normal human being or some weirdo.

After being made to feel like a freak your whole life, you don't much care if your hurt others. Its better to be perceived as an asshole than perceived as a freak or creeper.

[Haven]

Like confessoin bear once said, I had sexual fantasies about nearly all of my female acquaintances. But I strangely don't have ones about unfamiliar people. For me, there must be a story, a personality. Now THAT's a strange fetish.

But do I really hope to have sexy times with any of them? Nah. I wouldn't mind, but I'm a realist and I know that 99% of them ain't capable of mixing sex with friendship and without obligations. All in all, I have a couple of close female friends whose company I thoroughly enjoy because it allows me to know the female way of thinking.

[Lysah]

The first thing I think when I see a lady walking down the street is "hmm...I'd like to f*** her."

If that isn't science I don't know what is.

[PizzaSHARK]

I don't see much difference between the guy who treats every woman as a potential lay and the guy who puts women up on a pedestal to be honest.

It's complete objectification of women either way, whether you're just viewing them as a means to an end or trying to turn them into your golden calf. Or was it a goat? Something like that.

I find Laize's reference to the allegory of the cave to be particularly apt. Like he and others have said, once you've had it, you can't go back to the state you were in before. Some guy that's gotten laid in the past doesn't have the same mentality of a guy that's never been laid at all.

[Wells]

It's complete objectification of women either way, whether you're just viewing them as a means to an end or trying to turn them into your golden calf. Or was it a goat? Something like that.

Yeah this is more or less what I was getting at.

[Laize]

Yeah this is more or less what I was getting at.

The point stands. Unless you've actually been in that situation, you don't know what the mentality of such a person is like.

You don't seem to understand that whether it's wrong or not doesn't even enter into the discussion. You're talking about someone who's, in all likelihood, emotionally damaged for one reason or another (or several). Do you really expect them to make emotionally healthy choices when society (Including their family and friends) have offered no support structure whatsoever?