View Poll Results: Do you include 10 man raids in World First

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  • Yes, World First is World First, regardless of raid size

    800 65.95%
  • No, only 25 man raids are real World First

    413 34.05%
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  1. #241
    How about we just stop this bullshit and call it world first 10 man and world first 25 man

  2. #242
    High Overlord
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    Being an oldschool MMO player, Raiding to me consists of a large group of players doing complicated tasks together to overcome the evil foes.

    10 man is not large, so I dont see 10 mans as the "real" world first. technical it is, but I still see more prestige in downing 25 man.

    I guess the debate never dies so why not call it world first 10 & 25 kill? spilt it up, because we all know its not the same encounter.
    "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion." - Steven Weinberg, Nobel Laureate in physics

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    It certainly hints toward it, yeah. We won't know for sure until we get some videos/logs out.
    Paragon already talked on the subject saying that they didnt use any kind of "clever mechanic" to defeat the given boss.

    There are also some interesting posts about their raid setup and how it got changed from one encounter to the other.
    There is also a summer post in their site with interesting analysis on the subject "symbiosis".
    There is also the much mentioned but hardly discussed 25 ppl normal mode clear that paragon did on top of their 10 man run.

    In other words Paragon brought the 25 people raid philosophy into 10 mans.
    And instead of people saying "ty for showing to me how things must be done" they re trying to imply that paragon didn't follow the "rules".

    As i stated in Blizzards forums...

    "What rules? What is the goal? Who achieved it? In what mode? Where are the rest challengers of 10 man world first even as we speak now?

    Vodka had 74 toons with 6/6 normal. Remember that. Not 25, not 35 even...74!"

    You want small roster and convenience? Sure, but then don't complain about "overtuned" encounters and "easy mode" 25s.

  4. #244
    paragon did get a WF kill but everyone is still more interested in the 25 race.

    by everyone i mean everyone that matters.

    there is no 10 man race. there's paragon and then there's all the random 10 guilds who complain "lol 10 too hard" when paragon shows it's really a skill/dedication issue. paragon played 10's hard and put other 10's to shame and for that i respect them. now all the other 10 man guilds know the truth, it's not that 10 man is harder, just go hard or go home.

    25 on the other hand is an actual race, sure there are favorites now but remember the tier isn't over until sha and all those guilds will still be going hard to compete. no one can say with 100% certainty who will kill 25 sha first. 10 sha is going to be paragon unless someone nukes finland.

    anyway paragon is aware of how other top 25 guilds view their kill and they are ok with that. they're doing what they want. it's just paragon fanboys and insecure 10 man raiders who have to make it "the same as 25" - paragon doesn't need anyone's approval and i encourage all other 10 man raiders to follow their example.

  5. #245
    Herald of the Titans Seriss's Avatar
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    As the topic of 25-man vs. 10-man gets people all upset and aggressive, I wonder why it hasn't already become one of the topics that get locked automatically.

    Seriously, it's like beating a dead horse. Absolutely useless.

    I've been raiding 25-man from BC through Cata. Only in MoP have we split off from a 25-man guild to do our own thing and recruited a couple of more people. So, my guild and myself have a 25-man background that dates way back.

    Yes, some encounters are easier on 10-man. Yes, some encounters are easier on 25-man.

    World First race? I care for it in the sense that I use it to look up videos from those guilds or look at certain players and specs for information and inspiration.

    I'm not feeling that Paragon put my guild 'to shame' or something like that. They're awesome players. They probably raided a lot of beta. They've been playing together for years. They've managed to organise 25 people in any given encounter. For people like that organising a tiny 10-man group is a piece of cake. Heck, the amount of times that I went into a 10-man in Cata and scratched my head and wondered what was so difficult is endless. But that's because you take your best people when you temporarily downsize from 25-man to 10-man in order to get something done. While neither format can afford carrying dead weight, 25-mans simply have more people to choose from, and if you pick the guy that has the higher ilvl and can play the better spec, you pick that one. It's just that simple.

    I'm not saying that generally one or the other format is generally easier, mind you. You need to look at it from an encounter point of view. Compare encounter by encounter, and if you find that every single encounter is objectively easier in one format, then you have facts. But there are many subjective things that make one format seem easier than the other. It's impressions.

    Every format has those encounters whose mechanics make it more difficult for them. When you have a lot of stuff to handle, having more people for it is a bonus. On the other hand, when you need to keep certain distances from each other the fewer people you have, the easier it gets.

    And then there's, of course, personal impressions. Anybody who doesn't have a special task at an encounter will automatically find it easier than someone who does. It's why I always laugh at people who say that heroic 5-mans aren't hard at all. Well, play them as a healer and queue solo. Play Russian Roulette with the LFD. I use random heroic 5-mans as my personal healer boot camp because it will be me who interrupts, purges, roots, hexes and stuns stuff on top of doing all the healing. And Mr. DPS will waltz onto the forums afterwards and yell that dungeons are too easy. Yeah.......

    All of that said, I still like 25-man better than 10-man, but I raid 10-man during MoP because I'm raiding with a handful of friends and some other talented people who may yet become friends. 25-mans are more epic, no doubt. But they're not generally harder or easier or anything. They're just another raid size. One that I prefer over the smaller format, actually. But honestly, Blizzard have made this tier really challenging. We haven't seen normal modes of such difficulty in a long time. And the heroic modes will be brutal (I've only done Stone Guard so far and sneak-peaked at Feng who is next on the list next week then). And I want that Cutting Edge achievement, so bring it on, Blizzard, give me your worst.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by adelerollsinthedeep View Post
    paragon did get a WF kill but everyone is still more interested in the 25 race.

    by everyone i mean everyone that matters.

    there is no 10 man race. there's paragon and then there's all the random 10 guilds who complain "lol 10 too hard" when paragon shows it's really a skill/dedication issue. paragon played 10's hard and put other 10's to shame and for that i respect them. now all the other 10 man guilds know the truth, it's not that 10 man is harder, just go hard or go home.
    By the same logic, when paragon killed Ragnaros 25HC 2 weeks before anyone else in 25m, then they also "put all other 25's to shame and I respect them for that"...
    paragon players are exceptional, which is what they have constantly proven.
    And compared to those players, others are just casual noobs, no matter if 25man or 10man.

    25's hardcore raiders (besides maybe method or envy members) who consider them better than 10's even though they are losing progression to them are just whiny bitches who need consolidation to push their low self-esteem.
    The same might also be applied to those 10's who complain endlessly when some encounters in 10's are harder. Just suck it up, wow is far more about how much time you can invest on progression (for example having 3 fully geared toons, raid 16h a day.. etc) than it is about skill or raid difficulty.

  7. #247
    The Insane Wildtree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helwet View Post
    How about we just stop this bullshit and call it world first 10 man and world first 25 man
    That's what it is.... It's two different raids, it's two different accomplishments.

  8. #248
    Paragon are World First (by definition, the first in the world to do something) to kill the first 6 bosses on heroic mode
    They are also WF - 10 man
    Vodka/Method/BL (most likely) wil be the first to do it 25 man

    Go ahead, prove me wrong, that any other guild will be world first, after Paragon already did it.

    first to do it on 25 man format - yes, first overall - no.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by otyknip View Post
    Paragon are World First (by definition, the first in the world to do something) to kill the first 6 bosses on heroic mode
    They are also WF - 10 man
    Vodka/Method/BL (most likely) wil be the first to do it 25 man

    Go ahead, prove me wrong, that any other guild will be world first, after Paragon already did it.

    first to do it on 25 man format - yes, first overall - no.
    You reply to people that are already sayng that "there is no overall" and explain why they believe so.
    There is no need nobody to prove you wrong.
    Paragon already aknowledged the obvious, before even the races started.

  10. #250
    i agree. paragon smashed through rag because they are good players and put everyone else to shame. and a 25 that loses to a 10 when another 25 beat that 10 needs to get over it.

    but i don't compare the two. if guild A is 25, guild B is 10, and guild C is 25, and they get world 2nd, 3rd, and 4th respectively, all that means to me is that guild C isn't as good as guild A. guild B is irrelevant. Same if you reverse 10 and 25.

    because it's not the same fight. you can say some are easier on 10, some are easier on 25, but that isn't the competiton. the competition is...who can have the better strat? who can deal with the exact same mechanics better? not 'who can do something similar better' but who did the fight itself better. it's not just about being skilled, i agree it takes way too much grinding alts to feed gear to mains and that's stupid. but it's also about strategy, comp, and designing your raid to succeed.

    the point isn't to comment on the individual skill from players, i'm sure that if you compared guild A 10 man's mage to guild B 25 man's mage the players themselves would be the same if we are talking about world class guilds with similar kill dates. the point is simply that they are doing different fights, and if you want to have a competition, you have to be doing the same thing. not "a similar thing" but the exact same thing, that is the only way you can determine who is better at it.

    so one guild can finish a tier on 10 man the best, and one guild can finish the tier on 25 man the best, but they aren't competing with each other. i admit i hate the attitude of most 10 man guilds because i do believe 10 is easier and that the majority of supposedly hardcore 10 man guilds (obviously excluding paragon) play casually in comparison to hc 25 guilds and they don't believe it. but at the same time i feel their race is legitimate, if it's between each other, to see who can best complete 10 man content.

    if i had a problem with the existence of 10 man i wouldn't be giving paragon approval, i think they smashed through 10's and that is great for them. i wish other 10 man guilds would follow their example. its just a different game and honestly one that doesn't affect me.

    i'm pretty sure that paragon's players are better than a lot of players in 25 guilds but since they decided not to compete in that bracket it's no longer relevant. all that can be said is their guild completely dominated any other 10 man guild in the world.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Archidamos View Post
    You reply to people that are already sayng that "there is no overall" and explain why they believe so.
    There is no need nobody to prove you wrong.
    Paragon already aknowledged the obvious, before even the races started.
    There is not overall?
    How come?
    So, when a 25man guild on their realm gets the 6th kill, they will get the achievement "server first'', while Paragon's achievement will be changed to ''server and world first, but 10man'' ?
    Achievement dosent matter I guess, what does?
    Gonna go again with it, that you can be the world first 25 man (still), you cant be world first by definition.
    That is like saying, that OKC Thunder, are the NBA Champions, because they had more players on the bench.

  12. #252
    yes paragon is world first

    the point is that anyone raiding 25 doesn't actually care because they are still competing with each other

    its no good to beat someone in a different bracket. you are testing your skill against others in your own bracket.

    the only problem i have with 10 mans is when they try to say it's a direct competition with 25 mans. skilled guilds like paragon don't do this. last tier, in extremis was not "world third guild" but rather "world first 10 man guild" and this tier will be the same with 25's.

    it's like this, no 25 man guild gives a fuck if they beat a 10 man guild, and most also don't care if they lose to a 10 man guild. the only ones who do are the world 100 guilds who lost "realm first" or something stupid like that. but for world first race, everyone knows who they are competing against and that's what they're playing for.

    edit:

    to put it in a way you understand, team A got rank 1 in 3's and team B got rank 1 in 5's. which is the better team?
    Last edited by adelerollsinthedeep; 2012-10-12 at 12:47 PM.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by otyknip View Post
    There is not overall?
    How come?
    So, when a 25man guild on their realm gets the 6th kill, they will get the achievement "server first'', while Paragon's achievement will be changed to ''server and world first, but 10man'' ?
    Achievement dosent matter I guess, what does?
    Gonna go again with it, that you can be the world first 25 man (still), you cant be world first by definition.
    That is like saying, that OKC Thunder, are the NBA Champions, because they had more players on the bench.
    The Miami Heat are the NBA champions because they play in the NBA

    The Olympiacos are the Eurpleague basketball champions because they play in the Euroleague Basketball league

    Which feat is greater.. or are they equal? How do you define it? Who is the world champion of basketball? They both play stiff competition to their level of play..Who would win in they played--doesn't matter it would never happen

    That's why we have 10m world first and 25 man world first. i'm not trying to argue one is greater than the other (thats a useless debate imo) but the fact that they are way too different to mesh together.
    Last edited by Smoopie; 2012-10-12 at 03:05 PM.

  14. #254
    I expected people to be considering that the Paragon kill in 10 man didn´t matter, but seems like I was wrong.

    I also expected the forums to soar in complaining when a 10 man group got the first kill, but things are surprisingly quiet.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    Look at how many 25man guilds have killed the first 2 bosses compared to 10man guilds and keep in mind that there are a massive amount of 10man guilds out there compared to 25man.

    Appears to me that there is a larger portion of the 25man population able to kill 2/6 already compared to 10man which probably indicates that 10man is harder mechanically or tuned harder compared to 25man.
    Wrong inference.

    Blizzard suck at tuning 25man and 10man will never be equivalent. For 25man guilds to be successful they require and attract higher player quality.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Madruga View Post
    I expected people to be considering that the Paragon kill in 10 man didn´t matter, but seems like I was wrong.
    Most people care that it's Paragon, and that they're wiping the floor with other 10 man guilds.

    I also expected the forums to soar in complaining when a 10 man group got the first kill, but things are surprisingly quiet.
    Most people by now realize 10 and 25 are entirely separate races, so there's no reason to care that a 10 man group killed some boss before a 25 man group.

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoopie View Post
    The OKC thunder are the NBA champions because they play in the NBA.
    No, they are not, and you are clearly missing my point, as you dont follow that sport.

  18. #258
    Immortal Ryme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madruga View Post
    I expected people to be considering that the Paragon kill in 10 man didn´t matter, but seems like I was wrong.

    I also expected the forums to soar in complaining when a 10 man group got the first kill, but things are surprisingly quiet.
    Luckily for the forums, it was Paragon who got it, with their history of World First's, the transition was made easier for people to accept.
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  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by otyknip View Post
    No, they are not, and you are clearly missing my point, as you dont follow that sport.
    change it with the heat.. the point is the same.

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Heeresman View Post
    I voted yes. WF is WF, regardless of raid sze. 10 players (and i'm looking at Paragon) doing it before anyone else to me is first. Don't matter how you slice or dice it. You beat the End-Boss before anyone else. Operative word being before.
    And gz to DREAM Paragon! You Rock.
    hehe no, it's not. if it were, you could count normalmode and LFR to wirld first, too. who did the world 1st normalmode clear? right, nobody knows/cares.

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