Do you include 10 man raids in the World First race?

**Smoopie** · 2012-10-12, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by otyknip

That is like saying, that OKC Thunder, are the NBA Champions, because they had more players on the bench.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_NBA_Finals#Rosters

both teams had the same amount of players.

**otyknip** · 2012-10-12, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by Smoopie

change it with the heat.. the point is the same.

Originally Posted by Smoopie

both teams had the same amount of players

You are making a fool of yourself, and you are not even trying to understand what i said.

Miami Heat are the NBA champions. OKC are second. They might be the best team in the West, but they are second overall.
Is that clear enough for you?

Paragon defeated all 10 bosses FIRST IN THE WORLD.
Some other guild will do it second (go vodka)
That other guild will be most likely the first to do it on the 25 man ''braked'' , but they wont be the world first for this tier.
Its a fact

**Smoopie** · 2012-10-12, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by otyknip

You are making a fool of yourself, and you are not even trying to understand what i said.

Miami Heat are the NBA champions. OKC are second. They might be the best team in the West, but they are second overall.
Is that clear enough for you?

Paragon defeated all 10 bosses FIRST IN THE WORLD.
Some other guild will do it second (go vodka)
That other guild will be most likely the first to do it on the 25 man ''braked'' , but they wont be the world first for this tier.
Its a fact

Not sure if you are trolling me or just have a childlike mind...

Miami heat are the champions of the NBA, OKC are the second IN THE NBA. See what they have in common?They are both in the NBA

There are other basketball leagues than the NBA.

Raiding works the same way. There are two modes. 10 and 25

Paragon defeated all 10 bosses FIRST IN THE WORLD on 10 man
Paragon has not deafated any bosses in 25 man

**wow2011** · 2012-10-12, 03:32 PM

I voted no but for a different reason.

10man and 25man are just 2 very different formats and no matter how much Blizzard tunes them they will never be equal in difficulty. Now, keep in mind I am not saying 25man is easier or 10man is easier, I am simply saying you take any particular encounter, the difficulty between 10 and 25 will be different.

So should 10man compete in world first race? Only among 10man guilds. 10 man should not be mixed with 25 man simply because difficulties do not equal.

Congratz to paragon on world first 10man clear.

**Mehman** · 2012-10-12, 03:37 PM

Whoever kills the boss first is world first. Doesn't matter if it's with 24 other people in the raid or 9.

**otyknip** · 2012-10-12, 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by Mehman

Whoever kills the boss first is world first. Doesn't matter if it's with 24 other people in the raid or 9.

Amen.

/10char

**wow2011** · 2012-10-12, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by Mehman

Whoever kills the boss first is world first. Doesn't matter if it's with 24 other people in the raid or 9.

It does matter because difficulty is not the same. Difficulty can be "similar", but as long as it's not the same then they aren't competing in the same bracket. Even paragon themselves did a post on 10vs25 difficulty comparison of H FL and they found that some bosses are harder on 10 and some harder on 25.

So.. some bosses easier here and some bosses harder there. That doesn't sound like a proper competition.

**Smoopie** · 2012-10-12, 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by Mehman

Whoever kills the boss first is world first. Doesn't matter if it's with 24 other people in the raid or 9.

Last year when Paragn raided 25s it seemed to matter

**Wilian** · 2012-10-12, 03:48 PM

I don't find 10 mans proper raids at all. Whenever I think of 10-man I'm reminded by UBRS that wasn't much of an raid compared to the real ones.

**ripslyme** · 2012-10-12, 05:00 PM

Originally Posted by Ryme

I think the fight still fresh on people's minds is Ultraxion, that fight was a joke on 10 man but challenging in 25. Blizzard's justification to this was that they had to allow for some 10 groups who could not attain each and every raid buff/debuff.

With the further homogenization of the game, Blizzard can tighten up the dps times on 10 man. I mean, look at Gara'jal!

Vodka killed it easily without ever hitting the Enrage.. it was simply a l2p issue from the other Guilds yes the Fight required more DPS on 25 man but People should stop making a big Deal out of a fucking easy Pachwerk Boss

**Pandacally** · 2012-10-12, 08:07 PM

Originally Posted by ripslyme

Vodka killed it easily without ever hitting the Enrage.. it was simply a l2p issue from the other Guilds yes the Fight required more DPS on 25 man but People should stop making a big Deal out of a fucking easy Pachwerk Boss

actually the fight does not need more DPS on 25 man, just saying.

**Keoren** · 2012-10-13, 09:49 AM

World first 10-man
World first 25-man

**Netherfall** · 2012-10-13, 09:56 PM

Originally Posted by roblina

Spent a night wiping on Elegon 25m, end of lockout so 10 people stayed behind and killed him after raid over. Took 2 attempts, first wipe was because our boomkin sneezed on the first add and it was dead before it was anywhere near getting out of the bubble.

The fight was a joke in 10man compared to 25, the few claiming 10 is harder or as hard have their heads in the clouds.

It could also be you spent a day LEARNING the fight, having a better selection of people amongst your group to choose from, and proceed to finish with minimal attempts. Can you at least pretend to think before you make stupid claims?

**Archidamos** · 2012-10-14, 05:12 AM

EDIT: missquoted...

**Fnx-** · 2012-10-14, 05:27 AM

Originally Posted by Keoren

World first 10-man
World first 25-man

^
This is the wise words.

**Thassarian** · 2012-10-14, 05:31 AM

World Firsts need 2 lists, 10 and 25. However I'll always consider 25 man to be the raiding format and I'd take a World First 25 over a World First 10, even if you can make a case that either is more difficult than the other.

**huntypus** · 2012-10-14, 07:20 AM

Originally Posted by kosechi

10 mans do half the work of 25s for the same rewards. they shouldn't be included as anything but footnotes.

Well with that logic if 10 mans do half the work and they have less than half the people, then they are actually doing more work than 25 mans. 40% of the people doing 50% of the work

Good effort all around from all the people who want to feel special.

25 mans have more mechanics, but they also have more people to deal with them.

10 mans have less people so if one or two dies it makes a massive difference, and they also only have one brez.

Coming from someone who has done both, I would say they are different but they both have their difficulties. In the end, whomever kills the last boss first, kills the last boss first, this isn't WotLK where they are completely different difficulties.

People who only do 10 mans are going to say 10 mans are easier, and people who only do 25s are going to say 25s are harder.

This is a pointless and tired argument that doesn't really deserve to be debated about.

**Rixark** · 2012-10-14, 07:25 AM

Not really. I'd accept that they got the world first kill, but I think the real race is between the 25m guilds. It's kinda tradition at this point. It'd be like combining the WNBA with the NBA. Neither side is less skilled, but I only watch the NBA.

Edit: I had no idea there was already a basketball analogy on this threat. Neat.

**huntypus** · 2012-10-14, 07:39 AM

Originally Posted by Rixark

Not really. I'd accept that they got the world first kill, but I think the real race is between the 25m guilds. It's kinda tradition at this point. It'd be like combining the WNBA with the NBA. Neither side is less skilled, but I only watch the NBA.

Edit: I had no idea there was already a basketball analogy on this threat. Neat.

Thats actually a comparable thing ... you can have an NBA and a WNBA team play against eachother, and no offense to the ladies, but I'm pretty sure any NBA team could beat any WNBA team.

There is no way to judge raiding other than worlds first, ecxcept for seeing whomever kills the last boss first.

Basically what I'm saying is that your analogy is a terrible one.

**Sanktas** · 2012-10-14, 07:43 AM

If 10 man is much easier than 25 man, how come alot of 25 man has cleared it HC while not so many 10 mans have?

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