Thread: Resto Stats

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  1. #41
    Mechagnome Italiandk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariluz View Post
    You clearly haven't raid healed or progressed very far if you are forming this opinion. While 9k Spirit may not be mandatory to beat MV normals, you will need more spirit to heal through damage as you progress further through MV. (unless you are running with too many healers, which will make it harder to pass through the DPS checks)
    We were not talking about heroic modes, we were talking about entering for the first time in MV.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ariluz View Post
    Wrong. At the current levels of gear available, spirit and int are roughly equal. Seeing as how you get much more spirit from gems, spirit is currently the better option to gem for.
    You said it yourself: you gem spirit because you get more from it and not because it's a better stat. I already said that in my post below the one you quoted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ariluz View Post
    If you run oom healing the raid, you'll only have enough mana to cast lightning bolt or a healing wave, which might not be so helpful when there is aoe going out. When there is burst damage, your raid CDs along with int you get from gear more than cover the damage needed to heal. Some of what you say with damage may be relavent, but blizzard also puts in a large amount of unavoidable damage in most fights.
    Well, as I said in the post above spirit is not that good at the end of the day, imho, 5k more spirit how much will give you in a 7m fight? 7-8 more healing rain? And you trade it for what? You have to take into account all the factor, not just the spirit you gained.
    If you go oom in the middle of the fight you have to analyze WHY your mana reached 0 so fast and not just think "Oh crap, I'm oom, I need more spirit".

    Quote Originally Posted by Ariluz View Post
    There is no "cap". There may be a point where it would be worth gemming int over spirit, but we aren't far enough in to see how much unavoidable damage will be going around in raids. We aren't even at the level of spirit available were you can chain your most inefficient large heals while not having mana problems.
    I explained what I meant with "cap" and you are saying basically the same thing. You reach the cap when you are confortable with mana ergo when you end the most healing demanding fight over the 6 with at least 20% mana left. Then we can talk hours about RNG and stuff like that, shit can happen everytime so it's up to you how to determine how much mana left is confortable for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ariluz View Post
    Or you'll just drop a healer on fights and get through farm night faster.
    Good point. As you progress and get some boss in farm and after few nerfs even 2 healers will be too much tho. We are talking about "normal" set-up that usually requires 3 healers. If a fight is intended for 2 healers (gara'jal for example) the damage incoming is designen to fit this set-up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ariluz View Post
    If you are having a problem where your mastery is constantly worth 0, getting more crit isn't going to help your healing. I would suggest dropping a healer on the fight if you don't have problems keeping people topped. If you're talking about a few low damage phases, your mastery will still help out when its actually needed, rather than padding numbers when people are taking very little damage. The value of Mastery/Crit changes depending on the fight and the healer setup you are running, imo.
    The problem is when 3 healers are much but 2 healers are not enough. What you will do?
    But I see we are saying the same thing: you have to balance mastery and crit, according to your raid composition, to the fight, to your heal style and w/e.
    Last edited by Italiandk; 2012-10-18 at 01:22 PM.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Italiandk View Post
    You said it yourself: you gem spirit because you get more from it and not because it's a better stat. I already said that in my post below the one you quoted.
    Spirit is roughly equal to Int on a 1 to 1 ratio, not just on gems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Italiandk View Post
    Well, as I said in the post above spirit is not that good at the end of the day, imho, 5k more spirit how much will give you in a 7m fight? 7-8 more healing rain? And you trade it for what? You have to take into account all the factor, not just the spirit you gained.
    If you go oom in the middle of the fight you have to analyze WHY your mana reached 0 so fast and not just think "Oh crap, I'm oom, I need more spirit".
    If you gem spirit, you will increase your mana regen by about 38%. If you gem Int, you will increase your overall healing by about 6%.

    Quote Originally Posted by Italiandk View Post
    I explained what I meant with "cap" and you are saying basically the same thing. You reach the cap when you are confortable with mana ergo when you end the most healing demanding fight over the 6 with at least 20% mana left. Then we can talk hours about RNG and stuff like that, shit can happen everytime so it's up to you how to determine how much mana left is confortable for you.
    This type of "cap" is not available at this time in raids. The more spirit you get, the more you can cast spells.
    Last edited by Table; 2012-10-18 at 11:04 PM.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Table View Post
    Spirit is roughly equal to Int on a 1 to 1 ratio, not just on gems.
    I've been through most of the guide and the referenced documents, and I can't find the reasoning that supports this statement. Am I missing something?

  4. #44
    I thought I'd share the following link, from Vixsin's blog, on lifeingroup5.com:

    http://lifeingroup5.com/?p=2965

    It's partially related to the topic of this thread, but doesn't directly address specific values. It's simply a great read, from sharp shaman player.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by CaseyTheRetard View Post
    I've been through most of the guide and the referenced documents, and I can't find the reasoning that supports this statement. Am I missing something?
    He's utterly pulling it out of his ass. Int is always more valuable than spirit. By at least 2-1. Moreso the further we gear.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Jynus View Post
    He's utterly pulling it out of his ass. Int is always more valuable than spirit. By at least 2-1. Moreso the further we gear.
    Do you have any math to back your argument with, or is it because you'd rather gem int over spirit?

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Jynus View Post
    He's utterly pulling it out of his ass. Int is always more valuable than spirit. By at least 2-1. Moreso the further we gear.
    This is incorrect in multiple ways.

    First, Int is not stronger than any stat at a ratio of 2-1. It is more of about 1.65 Int to 1 Mastery/Crit/Haste. This means that there should not be a case where you gem pure Int, even when gear gets better.

    Second, I am not making those numbers up. Spirit gives you a similar bonus to your overall healing as Int, and it gives you a larger bonus the lower spirit you have. I was going to add a section to my guide about the worth of Spirit vs. Int, but I just never got around to it. Here's some math for you, accounting for 10,000 Int and 6000 Spirit which are both easily attainable pre-gems. It also accounts for 300,000 mana regen from sources other than spirit, such as resurgance, mana pot, water shield, hymn of hope, ect and the 300,000 base mana.


    Code:
    10000 int (~20000 SP total)
    100 SP = 0.319% healing increase
    100 Int = 23.695 Crit Rating
    
    23.695 rating = 0.04786% Increased (Single-Target) Healing
    0.03294% Increased (non single-target) Healing
    
    0.319% + 0.04786% = 0.36686% Increased (Single-Target) Healing from 100 Int
    0.319% + 0.03294% = 0.35194% Increased (non Single-Target) Healing from 100 Int
    
    6000 spirit
    300000 mana regen not from spirit
    
    325440 + 65088 = 390528
    5424 + 1085 = 6509
    6509/390528 = 0.01667
    1.667% more mana regen from spirit
    
    390528 + 300000 (base) + 300000 (other sources) = 990528
    6509/990528 = 0.00657
    0.657% more mana overall
    
    100 spirit = 0.657% more mana
    Last edited by Table; 2012-10-19 at 12:00 AM.

  8. #48
    Try as I might, I'm not seeing where that makes spirit as valuable or moreso than Int.

    Show me spirit increasing my hps more than int, for x fight with y stats and I'll consider it.

  9. #49
    High Overlord Lysakers's Avatar
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    It's is rather simple when you think about it. If you gem pure int any goes oom half way through the fight that extra int will not help you one bit. For the pure hps int might be better in a set time frame. But over a longer time frame the spirit will have you casting spells much longer an doing an overall more healing.

    And as for x spirit only giving x more GHW during 6 min fight - don't forget spirit affects the regen on MTT as well. And on a 6 min fight you get two of those.

    I don't need to see the math to understand that spirit will be a much better stat at the current gear.
    If you are a dps the same goes there, hit is far more valuable until you cap it.
    And as stated by several earlier, spirit is "capped" when you end the bad fights with mana to spare. Until that happens spirit will be mathematically better then int over an entire fight.

  10. #50
    When the goal is to maximize total healing done during an encounter, I need to see the math to compare casting slightly more heals with casting slightly larger heals. If you have a magic oracle that tells you spirit is better than intellect, then I guess you don't need to know the math.

    Quote Originally Posted by Table View Post
    Code:
    10000 int (~20000 SP total)
    100 SP = 0.319% healing increase
    100 Int = 23.695 Crit Rating
    1 intellect on gear gives 1.05 [5% Mail Specialization] * 1.05 [5% Stat Buff] = 1.1025 buffed intellect, so those numbers should be 10.25% larger - not that it affects your conclusions. Thanks
    Last edited by CaseyTheRetard; 2012-10-19 at 04:42 PM. Reason: typo.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysakers View Post
    It's is rather simple when you think about it. If you gem pure int any goes oom half way through the fight that extra int will not help you one bit. For the pure hps int might be better in a set time frame. But over a longer time frame the spirit will have you casting spells much longer an doing an overall more healing.

    And as for x spirit only giving x more GHW during 6 min fight - don't forget spirit affects the regen on MTT as well. And on a 6 min fight you get two of those.

    I don't need to see the math to understand that spirit will be a much better stat at the current gear.
    If you are a dps the same goes there, hit is far more valuable until you cap it.
    And as stated by several earlier, spirit is "capped" when you end the bad fights with mana to spare. Until that happens spirit will be mathematically better then int over an entire fight.
    I get this. The issue is it doesn't seem to take much spirit for this to happen in normal modes. I've already set one world top 25 parse, and on elgalon attempts last night, we hit enrage with me at a world top 10 pace. With 5k spirit buffed.... Thats it. I'm able to last 10 minute fights cruising at world breaking hps numbers and not have mana problems. So the concept that we should be going oom is utterly baffling to me, I'm just not seeing it even at basic gear level...

    So I get back to my point about how exactly does spirit have the godly value everyone seems to place on it when mana should not be an issue. The issue people need to be looking at is healing style first and formost imo and actually place value on healing properly.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jynus View Post
    I get this. The issue is it doesn't seem to take much spirit for this to happen in normal modes. I've already set one world top 25 parse, and on elgalon attempts last night, we hit enrage with me at a world top 10 pace. With 5k spirit buffed.... Thats it. I'm able to last 10 minute fights cruising at world breaking hps numbers and not have mana problems. So the concept that we should be going oom is utterly baffling to me, I'm just not seeing it even at basic gear level...

    So I get back to my point about how exactly does spirit have the godly value everyone seems to place on it when mana should not be an issue. The issue people need to be looking at is healing style first and formost imo and actually place value on healing properly.
    I'd love to see your armory and logs. Link please.

    When we downed Elegon, I had twice that much spirit yet mana was an issue. And I know how to heal efficiently so either you were three healing it, and you had time to throw lightning bolts, or you're some resto shaman god that has found a way around the mana concerns everyone else is having.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Mavalynn View Post
    I'd love to see your armory and logs. Link please.

    When we downed Elegon, I had twice that much spirit yet mana was an issue. And I know how to heal efficiently so either you were three healing it, and you had time to throw lightning bolts, or you're some resto shaman god that has found a way around the mana concerns everyone else is having.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...e/Jynus/simple

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=14192&e=14768

    25man tho. 10man tonight prob but same thing in regards to mana. i learned fight in 10man and 2 healing i never dropped below 40% mana. tho we never saw P3. i'll log tomight should we run it.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jynus View Post
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...e/Jynus/simple

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=14192&e=14768

    25man tho. 10man tonight prob but same thing in regards to mana. i learned fight in 10man and 2 healing i never dropped below 40% mana. tho we never saw P3. i'll log tomight should we run it.
    That one attempt where your hps was so high was an anomaly, because your other attempts that were approximately the same duration your hps were almost half that. I'm not saying that you're not a good resto shaman, I'm just saying that is not the "norm" for you. In fact, looking at the Elegon attempts as a whole, you were near the bottom of the healers as far as hps goes (even considering your one really good hps attempt)

    On Elegon, I would definitely have to say that a rshaman healing 10-man will run up against more mana issues than a 25-man. For one, you'd have a chance to take more breaks to LB spam. You also are running with another shaman, that's another MT totem. There's more healing CDs available within the raid. Etc.

    I'd definitely be interested in seeing your 10-man Elegon kill. Good luck!

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Mavalynn View Post
    That one attempt where your hps was so high was an anomaly, because your other attempts that were approximately the same duration your hps were almost half that. I'm not saying that you're not a good resto shaman, I'm just saying that is not the "norm" for you. In fact, looking at the Elegon attempts as a whole, you were near the bottom of the healers as far as hps goes (even considering your one really good hps attempt)

    On Elegon, I would definitely have to say that a rshaman healing 10-man will run up against more mana issues than a 25-man. For one, you'd have a chance to take more breaks to LB spam. You also are running with another shaman, that's another MT totem. There's more healing CDs available within the raid. Etc.

    I'd definitely be interested in seeing your 10-man Elegon kill. Good luck!
    Not really. It was the only attempt where I had my CD rotation set properly. 12-13 were the first times I saw P3. I went into both with either all, or most my CD's burned. After that myself and other healers reset our CD rotations to get a proper set up for P3. The last attempt was the only one where we made it and I was ready for it. Any further attempts will be much the same as this.

    As for being lower than other healers during normal parts of the fight, well ya. Thats by design based on how our CD's line up. I'm last in CD rotation, so on most attempts we're already half way to wiping before I've really popped anything. I can only fit 2 rounds of CD's for entire fight while other healers can time 3. And it goes back to smart healing. If HTT or tranq, etc is blasting out, why would I be blowing all sorts of mana healing when it's already covered by someone else... Just pace and save for when it's really needed. But point taken, I'm a mastery build shammy, and I shine when poo hits the fan if you will. If everything going to plan and timed right, then ya, I suffer as noone ever really in danger. So not surprising I'm lower during the parts of normal business.

    Thx for being somewhat open minded tho. I'm actually making it a point of not going above 6k spirit buffed for this tier. (or at least be FAR below whats considered bar min spirit) just to show that being smart with big heals can work fine, if not excel to upper levels. I'm looking forward to 10man as well.

  16. #56
    High Overlord Lysakers's Avatar
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    Speaking from personal experience, that low spirit will not work in my group.
    And that is mainly because people stand in shit too much.

    I cant for the life of me understand how you manage with only 5k spirit, but then gain it depends on raid comp and how good the other players are i guess.

    My only point with the post above is that unless you get through the fights with mana to spare, spirit will be more valuable than int.
    Those big heals at the start due to int gems will not make your total healing for that fight higher if you are oom and mama starved for the last 1 min of the fight.

    There no magic number like "you must have 10 spirit or else you are a twat" kinda thing. Its all personal judgement.
    Personally i need my 10k spirit unbuffed. So that leaves spirit the better stat until i hit my sweet spot.

  17. #57
    The answer is, the bigger the heals I can put out, the less heals I have to cast. Thus mana saved.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Jynus View Post
    The answer is, the bigger the heals I can put out, the less heals I have to cast. Thus mana saved.
    You have to remember that, a large portion of shaman mana consumption is from using Healing Rain, Riptide and Healing Stream Totem. In most cases, you want to use all 3 on CD (possibly holding off on HR to line it with ULE). You are going to be normally casting them regardless of how much INT you have, so you aren't saving mana there at all. Where you can argue that you are saving mana is in being able to use Healing Surge/Greater Healing Wave/Chain Heal less often. The problem with that is, if you are using expensive single target heals, it is because people are dropping to low health. In those situations, Mastery will do more for you and allow you to cast fewer spells than INT does.

    I believe that Spirit > INT even on sources where the option is 1:1. The exception are fights with infinite mana mechanics (like Tsulong and Gara'jal). You definitely should never gem INT because there is no way that INT is ever 200% as strong per itemization point as any of Spirit, Mastery or Crit.

    As far as stat priority, IMO, the priority is Spirit > INT > Crit > Mastery > Haste. It has been mathed out by multiple theorycrafters that Mastery only exceeds Crit in throughput on targets below about 40% HP if you are using the 3% crit effect meta. In most raid situations, the vast majority of your healing is on targets higher than than that threshold. When you factor in the extra regen from Resurgence, I think that Crit pulls away as the superior stat unless you are working on a fight where the raid is consistently at low health.

    As far as haste, it's trivial to reach the first haste threshold, especially if specced into Ancestral Swiftness. Even if AS doesn't push me past a haste threshold, I still think I would prefer it over the other talents because
    (1) The instant cast heal every 1 minute can be a real life saver
    (2) The 5% haste gain is still relevant on direct heals and CH/HR cast times regardless of haste thresholds
    (3) I don't find Elemental Mastery particularly compelling as a cooldown. Getting the most out of it requires burning a lot of extra mana, although I guess using it in conjunction with Healing Tide could make it powerful.
    (4) Echo of the Elements is really weak; it works out to less than a 1% output increase and is unpredictable and has a high likelihood of overhealing when it does proc. I would never give up an instant cast spell for that.

    I can see a potential argument that stat priority possibly should be to go to the 3764 haste threshold for an extra tick on HST and HTT (with Ancestral Swiftness and raid buffs). I suspect that threshold will be the standard for next tier.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    You have to remember that, a large portion of shaman mana consumption is from using Healing Rain, Riptide and Healing Stream Totem. In most cases, you want to use all 3 on CD (possibly holding off on HR to line it with ULE). You are going to be normally casting them regardless of how much INT you have, so you aren't saving mana there at all. Where you can argue that you are saving mana is in being able to use Healing Surge/Greater Healing Wave/Chain Heal less often. The problem with that is, if you are using expensive single target heals, it is because people are dropping to low health. In those situations, Mastery will do more for you and allow you to cast fewer spells than INT does.

    I believe that Spirit > INT even on sources where the option is 1:1. The exception are fights with infinite mana mechanics (like Tsulong and Gara'jal). You definitely should never gem INT because there is no way that INT is ever 200% as strong per itemization point as any of Spirit, Mastery or Crit.

    As far as stat priority, IMO, the priority is Spirit > INT > Crit > Mastery > Haste. It has been mathed out by multiple theorycrafters that Mastery only exceeds Crit in throughput on targets below about 40% HP if you are using the 3% crit effect meta. In most raid situations, the vast majority of your healing is on targets higher than than that threshold. When you factor in the extra regen from Resurgence, I think that Crit pulls away as the superior stat unless you are working on a fight where the raid is consistently at low health.

    As far as haste, it's trivial to reach the first haste threshold, especially if specced into Ancestral Swiftness. Even if AS doesn't push me past a haste threshold, I still think I would prefer it over the other talents because
    (1) The instant cast heal every 1 minute can be a real life saver
    (2) The 5% haste gain is still relevant on direct heals and CH/HR cast times regardless of haste thresholds
    (3) I don't find Elemental Mastery particularly compelling as a cooldown. Getting the most out of it requires burning a lot of extra mana, although I guess using it in conjunction with Healing Tide could make it powerful.
    (4) Echo of the Elements is really weak; it works out to less than a 1% output increase and is unpredictable and has a high likelihood of overhealing when it does proc. I would never give up an instant cast spell for that.

    I can see a potential argument that stat priority possibly should be to go to the 3764 haste threshold for an extra tick on HST and HTT (with Ancestral Swiftness and raid buffs). I suspect that threshold will be the standard for next tier.
    That only works for heals that can proc AA. For HST, CH, HR, ELW and glyphed RT, the threshold where mastery overtakes crit in HPS is 64.7% with the meta. A lot more realistic target to pass under. That and our mastery works best when people are low. I'd rather do a little less healing when people are sufficiently high (I raid with a resto druid so HoTs tend to top of people) so I can be ready when shit hits the proverbially fan and to get people out of the danger zone when taking massive unavoidable damage.
    It's the internet. You never know if people are either sarcastic or just bad.

  20. #60
    Epic! twistedsista's Avatar
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    this really isnt helping the guy with original post.

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...n-Guide-to-MoP

    maybe this might help you out more, mate. gl

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