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  1. #1

    Monk tanking isn't me I guess (logs included)

    I'm guessing monk tanking isn't for me. I had the worse night EVER tonight. I love the class, love the playstyle, but apparently I just can't be not squishy as my entire raid says. Yet, whenever I do happen to pug raids all I ever get is I'm very good, not hard to heal or anything. There is one person on my raid group that we both don't see eye to eye with each other, is that enough though to bring down your playing? I've raided with my raid leader going on 4 years now and he says I'm a very good and competent tank, yet all I get from the raid is I'm going downhill and I think it's because of one person. I'm losing my mind, one person can cause me to be bad can it?

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ngchi/advanced
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/zjtnng6j3o3wvl5h/

    Tonight was the worse and it all started when my pet (xuen) would just taunt a dog randomly and the other tank would call that out, then this person would chime in and start getting all short about oh that pet doesn't tank, etc. And it all went downhill from there. Is this all in my head or do I just need to fine another raid team.

  2. #2
    Scarab Lord Arkenaw's Avatar
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    Using Xuen on guard seems pretty silly since it's a fight so dependent on taunts. Maybe you just need practice, if you really love it, don't give up.

    And yes, one person can cause you to play poorly, maybe you should talk to your raid leader about them.

  3. #3
    I think you might be going a bit hardcore on the haste. You are missing out on some nice socket bonuses.
    That isn't enough to make you super squishy though.

    You used a lot of chi waves, and shuffle was only at roughly 60-70% uptime.

    Losing 20% parry and 20% stagger for a heal isn't worth it imo. Let the healers heal, you focus on not getting raped.
    If shuffle has a long duration on it, and you have some excess chi, then sure.

    You might want to try the healing sphere glyph. I never conducted any actual tests, but I heard and it appears to work on the gift of the ox orbs as well. There are often shitloads of them all around me now, especially in aoe.
    Last edited by Obamatheone; 2012-11-12 at 07:51 AM.

  4. #4
    I personally don't use Xuen on most fights because a Pet out of my control strikes me badly, like taunting in your case or just having it be in the wrong place at the wrong time, but I am sure thats a personal choice on my part. I use rushing jade wind as a substitute and find it really good for when theres two or more enemies, though it would be useless on a single boss I suppose.

    Your gear looks good, and I am not sure if you are looking for play suggestions or not but I will say consider glyphing guard, even if it means the entire absorb wont be used every 30 sec it makes up for it by giving you higher uptime on the +30% self healing. And part of brewmaster tanking is being smart with your movement, make sure you are using those Gift of the Ox procs and every possible way to mitigate damage beyond just gear, as in movement when you can and such.

    Honestly though from your post it reads more like the problem isn't you. If you are the experienced tank you say, I would say its more to do with others getting used to playing WITH a brewmaster. The playstyle is different as you know, and seem to love, but mechanics like shuffle instead of block, wearing leather, and some of the other particulars of the spec do make a difference from your healers perspective, and how confident your healer is about what damage you are going to take in the coming seconds, and how to match their cooldowns to yours. Couple that with the relatively new Active Mitigation model all tanks now use, and someone who seems determined not to play nice, and its a recipe for some conflict.

    Don't let other people bring you down if this is the spec and class you love, if you are playing optimally, and it seems like you generally are, then its just their problem and should be worked out socially.

    EDIT

    I also just noticed you are only at 7.5% Expertise, that really should be 15% as brewmaster especially. Remember that Elusive Brew comes from white swing crits, which obviously have to hit in the first place. One of the main keys to Brewmaster is maintaining Shuffle and Elusive Brew as much as you can.
    Last edited by squid; 2012-11-12 at 07:35 AM.

  5. #5
    ahahha you're living the haste dream! thats like 3500~ more than i could get but I just pass on every piece of gear since i got rid of all my blues

    I try and keep at least 500k hp buffed, people just need to adjust to healing brewmasters, I was full haste reforge to around 5800-6000 and I swapped to mastery to do some testing and its going ok, EB doesnt feel like its stacking anywhere near as fast and I'm constantly at red stagger

    71% shuffle isnt amazing but yeh, we do take more damage than other tank classes if not done perfectly, considering we have 5x as much work to do

    dont even try to explain it to your guild either, just work on uptimes and talk shit about your healers being awful in the meantime



    EDIT: I cant even come close to the 5100 expertise(15%) cap with my gear, so I have to make do, but id def go for it if I could, heres a link if you care: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ichan/advanced
    Last edited by peki; 2012-11-12 at 07:44 AM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by squid View Post
    Stuff
    I like this guy.

    Edit: OT: I feel like monks are the new DK, hard for healers to learn and impossible for tanks to have the skill necessary for a while. I would say gear a different tank if you want to keep raiding with them. They obviously are not interested in trying to fix themselves.
    Last edited by SqueektheWeek; 2012-11-12 at 07:42 AM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by galook View Post
    I'm guessing monk tanking isn't for me. I had the worse night EVER tonight. I love the class, love the playstyle, but apparently I just can't be not squishy as my entire raid says. Yet, whenever I do happen to pug raids all I ever get is I'm very good, not hard to heal or anything. There is one person on my raid group that we both don't see eye to eye with each other, is that enough though to bring down your playing? I've raided with my raid leader going on 4 years now and he says I'm a very good and competent tank, yet all I get from the raid is I'm going downhill and I think it's because of one person. I'm losing my mind, one person can cause me to be bad can it?

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ngchi/advanced
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/zjtnng6j3o3wvl5h/

    Tonight was the worse and it all started when my pet (xuen) would just taunt a dog randomly and the other tank would call that out, then this person would chime in and start getting all short about oh that pet doesn't tank, etc. And it all went downhill from there. Is this all in my head or do I just need to fine another raid team.
    You sound like your problems are mental. I do not think that this forum can help you.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by squid View Post
    EDIT

    I also just noticed you are only at 7.5% Expertise, that really should be 15% as brewmaster especially. Remember that Elusive Brew comes from white swing crits, which obviously have to hit in the first place. One of the main keys to Brewmaster is maintaining Shuffle and Elusive Brew as much as you can.
    This is not completely accurate. While yes our elusive brew proces come from our white hit crits, a chance to parry does not reduce the chance you will crit the target. Since that attack is on a one roll system the parry wouldn't come into effect unless you some how had 93%+ crit chance. The only real thing that expertise is used for after the soft cap is to make sure your Keg Smash hits and you don't lose out on that extra chi and 8 energy per 8 seconds.

    OT: Just try to work on keeping shuffle up more and using purifying more, don't worry too much about using your chi to heal yourself unless you are in a desperate need for a heal. Another thing I would do is just mute the guy who is harassing you (assuming he isn't the one calling out important things for the fight and if he is just ask someone else to call them out). That way you can raid in peace.
    Last edited by Noviskers; 2012-11-12 at 07:55 AM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by squid View Post
    I personally don't use Xuen on most fights because a Pet out of my control strikes me badly, like taunting in your case or just having it be in the wrong place at the wrong time, but I am sure thats a personal choice on my part. I use rushing jade wind as a substitute and find it really good for when theres two or more enemies, though it would be useless on a single boss I suppose.

    Your gear looks good, and I am not sure if you are looking for play suggestions or not but I will say consider glyphing guard, even if it means the entire absorb wont be used every 30 sec it makes up for it by giving you higher uptime on the +30% self healing. And part of brewmaster tanking is being smart with your movement, make sure you are using those Gift of the Ox procs and every possible way to mitigate damage beyond just gear, as in movement when you can and such.

    Honestly though from your post it reads more like the problem isn't you. If you are the experienced tank you say, I would say its more to do with others getting used to playing WITH a brewmaster. The playstyle is different as you know, and seem to love, but mechanics like shuffle instead of block, wearing leather, and some of the other particulars of the spec do make a difference from your healers perspective, and how confident your healer is about what damage you are going to take in the coming seconds, and how to match their cooldowns to yours. Couple that with the relatively new Active Mitigation model all tanks now use, and someone who seems determined not to play nice, and its a recipe for some conflict.

    Don't let other people bring you down if this is the spec and class you love, if you are playing optimally, and it seems like you generally are, then its just their problem and should be worked out socially.

    EDIT

    I also just noticed you are only at 7.5% Expertise, that really should be 15% as brewmaster especially. Remember that Elusive Brew comes from white swing crits, which obviously have to hit in the first place. One of the main keys to Brewmaster is maintaining Shuffle and Elusive Brew as much as you can.
    This is false. Crits are independent of hitting the boss for melee.
    7.5% exp is fine.

    He at the very least has a serious issue with shuffle uptime, and some of his gems are wrong.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-12 at 07:55 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by peki View Post


    EDIT: I cant even come close to the 5100 expertise(15%) cap with my gear, so I have to make do, but id def go for it if I could, heres a link if you care: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ichan/advanced
    15% exp is bad

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Noviskers View Post
    This is not completely accurate. While yes our elusive brew proces come from our white hit crits, a chance to parry does not reduce the chance you will crit the target. Since that attack is on a one roll system the parry wouldn't come into effect unless you some how had 93%+ crit chance. The only real thing that expertise is used for after the soft cap is to make sure your Keg Smash hits and you don't lose out on that extra chi and 8 energy per 8 seconds.
    Not true, an attack that was parried is an attack that could not be a crit, if you have a 25% crit chance and are never parried, 25% of your white swings will contribute to elusive brew. If you are parried 15% of the time that is 15% of that 25% gone lowering it to ~21% of all attacks you make (read: not all attacks that HIT). This is actually even lower than that since white swings already have a higher chance to miss on top of loss to parry and dodge through expertise, and the duration of the elusive brew stack buff is not as long as it could be relative to frequency of crits in a class that gears haste, AS WELL as using a two handed rather than DW means there is an even greater chance for the stack to fall off.

    All of this compounded with the chance to be parried on a Special Attack such as Keg Smash means there really is no reason you should be below 15% as a tank.

    EDIT

    People are debating me on this without actually getting their math or facts straight I think. Im not saying Expertise is reducing your crit chance of attacks that are not parried, Im saying its reducing the overall number of crit white swings that hit in the course of a time frame.
    Here are some links that back me up on stat priority.

    http://www.noxxic.com/wow/pve/monk/b.../stat-priority
    http://www.icy-veins.com/brewmaster-...rity-reforging

    and EJ thread, read back for discussion http://elitistjerks.com/f99/t129790-...iscussion/p24/
    Last edited by squid; 2012-11-12 at 08:04 AM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by squid View Post
    Not true, an attack that was parried is an attack that could not be a crit, if you have a 25% crit chance and are never parried, 25% of your white swings will contribute to elusive brew. If you are parried 15% of the time that is 15% of that 25% gone lowering it to ~21% of all attacks you make (read: not all attacks that HIT). This is actually even lower than that since white swings already have a higher chance to miss on top of loss to parry and dodge through expertise, and the duration of the elusive brew stack buff is not as long as it could be relative to frequency of crits in a class that gears haste, AS WELL as using a two handed rather than DW means there is an even greater chance for the stack to fall off.

    All of this compounded with the chance to be parried on a Special Attack such as Keg Smash means there really is no reason you should be below 15% as a tank.
    We will use your example of 25% cri, so assuming you have 25% critical strike chance and only have 7.5% expertise this means that you have 67.5% chance to white hit. So in a single roll system the computer will generate a random number between 1-100 once (hence single roll). If it lands between 1 and 25 that hit will be a crit, if it lands between 26 and 92 that will be a white hit, but if it lands between 93 and 100 then that attack will be parried. As you increase your critical strike chance it pushes your white hit off the board (say if you had 30% crit, 1-30 would be crit, 31-92 would be white hit while 93-100 stays the same). So since our attacks use a single roll system, increasing your expertise will in fact not increase your chance to critically strike.

  12. #12
    I've been Monk tanking since release with xuen and never once has he gained agro off of me or another tank. To be honest it sounds like some one is just trying to blame something on your pet and on the guardians fight in 10 man I main tank 2 adds and we have an off tank just tank the other and he always has more damage taken then I do

    You need to get closer to the exp cap as well 7.5% hit 15% exp. And 15% exp is not bad since you have active metigation as a monk. Its a pain but keeping shuffle up is more important then anything else. Also make sure you are dropping your stagger when ever it gets to yellow or you have extra chi to spare

    Make sure you make good use of your 5th talent and are changing it accordingly to the fight. i've noticed that diffuse magic generally reduce more damage on guardians then dampen harm does which

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by squid View Post
    I personally don't use Xuen on most fights because a Pet out of my control strikes me badly, like taunting in your case or just having it be in the wrong place at the wrong time, but I am sure thats a personal choice on my part. I use rushing jade wind as a substitute and find it really good for when theres two or more enemies, though it would be useless on a single boss I suppose.
    About Xuen usage, there are 2 fights where it's ok to use as a tank, Gara'jal where he focuses the tank and cannot be taunted and Elegon on the Orb Phases, pop it both times and watch kitty kat do insane amounts of damage. Apart from those two fights, the fact that he taunts is quite annoying most of the time except in extremely rare circumstances where it can buy you a few boss swings as a makeshift cooldown.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by YoFro View Post
    I've been Monk tanking since release with xuen and never once has he gained agro off of me or another tank. To be honest it sounds like some one is just trying to blame something on your pet and on the guardians fight in 10 man I main tank 2 adds and we have an off tank just tank the other and he always has more damage taken then I do

    You need to get closer to the exp cap as well 7.5% hit 15% exp. And 15% exp is not bad since you have active metigation as a monk. Its a pain but keeping shuffle up is more important then anything else. Also make sure you are dropping your stagger when ever it gets to yellow or you have extra chi to spare

    Make sure you make good use of your 5th talent and are changing it accordingly to the fight. i've noticed that diffuse magic generally reduce more damage on guardians then dampen harm does which
    BoK gives shuffle regardless if it hits.
    15% exp = bad

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-12 at 08:21 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by squid View Post
    Not true, an attack that was parried is an attack that could not be a crit, if you have a 25% crit chance and are never parried, 25% of your white swings will contribute to elusive brew. If you are parried 15% of the time that is 15% of that 25% gone lowering it to ~21% of all attacks you make (read: not all attacks that HIT). This is actually even lower than that since white swings already have a higher chance to miss on top of loss to parry and dodge through expertise, and the duration of the elusive brew stack buff is not as long as it could be relative to frequency of crits in a class that gears haste, AS WELL as using a two handed rather than DW means there is an even greater chance for the stack to fall off.

    All of this compounded with the chance to be parried on a Special Attack such as Keg Smash means there really is no reason you should be below 15% as a tank.

    EDIT

    People are debating me on this without actually getting their math or facts straight I think. Im not saying Expertise is reducing your crit chance of attacks that are not parried, Im saying its reducing the overall number of crit white swings that hit in the course of a time frame.
    Here are some links that back me up on stat priority.

    http://www.noxxic.com/wow/pve/monk/b.../stat-priority
    http://www.icy-veins.com/brewmaster-...rity-reforging

    and EJ thread, read back for discussion http://elitistjerks.com/f99/t129790-...iscussion/p24/
    And those guides, just like ours are wrong.
    15% exp is crap. You gain more Chi via haste.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Apellosine View Post
    About Xuen usage, there are 2 fights where it's ok to use as a tank, Gara'jal where he focuses the tank and cannot be taunted and Elegon on the Orb Phases, pop it both times and watch kitty kat do insane amounts of damage. Apart from those two fights, the fact that he taunts is quite annoying most of the time except in extremely rare circumstances where it can buy you a few boss swings as a makeshift cooldown.
    He isn't supposed to taunt raid bosses, and tanks like YoFro use him no problem, but I have had him pull threat I am assuming through that taunt on fights and since then stopped using him. Its quite possibly a bug, the tank spec functionality for Xuen was not in his original design at release, and pets in wow have never been very smart.

    As for White Crits and the one roll attack system, that does break my argument of the 25% lowered to 21% so I was wrong there, but thats the least of the problems with low Exp. The main issue is losing out on chi or lowering buff and debuff uptime because up had a Smash or Kick parried, and losing any percentage of attacks isn't good since as Tank you will almost always be hitting mobs from the front. In any case Elusive Brew proc mechanics were not the point of this thread so I'm going to leave it there.

    OP just look at improving your play if this is your favorite spec. Theres been good suggestions about gemming and buff uptime here, look at some other threads and guides too. If your play is good theres no reason for you to be called out unless someone is being a jerk, and if they are wrong others will back you up.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by squid View Post
    I personally don't use Xuen on most fights because a Pet out of my control strikes me badly, like taunting in your case or just having it be in the wrong place at the wrong time, but I am sure thats a personal choice on my part. I use rushing jade wind as a substitute and find it really good for when theres two or more enemies, though it would be useless on a single boss I suppose.

    Your gear looks good, and I am not sure if you are looking for play suggestions or not but I will say consider glyphing guard, even if it means the entire absorb wont be used every 30 sec it makes up for it by giving you higher uptime on the +30% self healing. And part of brewmaster tanking is being smart with your movement, make sure you are using those Gift of the Ox procs and every possible way to mitigate damage beyond just gear, as in movement when you can and such.

    Honestly though from your post it reads more like the problem isn't you. If you are the experienced tank you say, I would say its more to do with others getting used to playing WITH a brewmaster. The playstyle is different as you know, and seem to love, but mechanics like shuffle instead of block, wearing leather, and some of the other particulars of the spec do make a difference from your healers perspective, and how confident your healer is about what damage you are going to take in the coming seconds, and how to match their cooldowns to yours. Couple that with the relatively new Active Mitigation model all tanks now use, and someone who seems determined not to play nice, and its a recipe for some conflict.

    Don't let other people bring you down if this is the spec and class you love, if you are playing optimally, and it seems like you generally are, then its just their problem and should be worked out socially.

    EDIT

    I also just noticed you are only at 7.5% Expertise, that really should be 15% as brewmaster especially. Remember that Elusive Brew comes from white swing crits, which obviously have to hit in the first place. One of the main keys to Brewmaster is maintaining Shuffle and Elusive Brew as much as you can.
    Can I +rep you, I'm not seeing a button to do that.

    Anyways, back in Cataclysm I had all 4 of the tanks geared and raiding at least normal modes, only 2 were doing hard modes and only 1 there was actually full 7/7h, 8/8h. I consider myself a good tank. It's just I seem to lack confidence for some reason and I tend to not take others remarks very well joking or not. We've been going at this for a few months now and it's just getting worse and worse I think. It's even come to the point where it's started involving my co-tank, which is never good since we're tanking together and we need to know how each other works, plays, etc. I'm going to show my raid leader, also a long time friend this post, that's just how good I think it is.

    And to your edit about me only being 7.5% expertise, I just changed that thinking it was probably wrong and again me taking all this way to personally probably caused that. I'm going back to what I was at with 15% expertise because of this post. I've already muted the person in our Mumble server and I'm going to continue at least for this next week with the raid team and see if just not listening to the guy helps any at all. If not, then I'll probably just have to suck it up and find a new raid team, which I hope I can just get this solved because we all know just how hard it is to find a solid raid team and this group I've been with going on 2-3 years now. We've of course had several changes to it, but the main group is still together and I would love to keep it like that.

    To the person who mentioned glyphing healing sphere may be working with gift of the ox orbs, I'm going to try that and see if it really is working that way.

    Thanks for the time you took to make the post by the way everyone.

  17. #17
    hey, if you have such serious issues with your guildys that you consider quitting the guild over it you should maybe consider discussing that inside the guild instead of taking that to mmochampion.

    I took the initiative to start the discussion for you on your guild forums -removed-

    Simca: Banned.
    Last edited by Simca; 2012-11-12 at 01:11 PM.

  18. #18
    Xuen as tank is completly fine to use. I use it on almost every fight because there is no reasonable choice for BrM on that lvl 90 tier when facing just a single boss.
    There is no problem in using him. He doesnt taunt lvl 93. Easily do see in Challenge modes where he doesnt taunt the boss of me unlike normal heroic mode.
    (that is until recently where Xuen seems to behave strange but still nothing serious).

    The only real problem i found for the op when looking at the logs a bit was the shuffle uptime. That was more then abit low.

  19. #19
    You misread the entire post derptron. I never said nothing about quitting the guild.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by galook View Post
    There is one person on my raid group that we both don't see eye to eye with each other, is that enough though to bring down your playing?

    ...

    Is this all in my head or do I just need to fine another raid team.
    from your post its just issues with your guildys
    Last edited by derptron; 2012-11-12 at 09:13 AM. Reason: fixed quote

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