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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shinzai
    I see 3 fights where BM parses ahead, not sure what your point is.
    OK, I'll bite.

    You're implying that SV is not in fact the superior spec because BM parsed higher by 1.5% or less on 3 of the 6 fights - the other 3 on which SV dominates by a solid 15% margin? This logic does not make sense to me, and yet it's all over hunter forums everywhere. Please explain it to me.
    By the way, if you're reforging for survival stat priorities (dumping mastery like its hot) so that you can do well on the three fights where it -clearly- dominates, you're going to also close that 1% gap and do more dps as SV.

    Oh, one more thing - I just checked 10 man rankings because I was curious where your information was coming from. SV is actually ahead on 5 of the 6 fights in that raid size.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    Look at the main page World first was a 10 man guild.
    The insinuation that Paragon went 10 man by choice means you're completely ignorant of the facts. Go read their blog. Also, they use a roster of 40 (20+20 alts) to stack the raid on every fight. Comparing them to... well... ANY other 10 man guild... is simply laughable.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Flustered View Post
    OK, I'll bite.

    You're implying that SV is not in fact the superior spec because BM parsed higher by 1.5% or less on 3 of the 6 fights - the other 3 on which SV dominates by a solid 15% margin? This logic does not make sense to me, and yet it's all over hunter forums everywhere. Please explain it to me.
    By the way, if you're reforging for survival stat priorities (dumping mastery like its hot) so that you can do well on the three fights where it -clearly- dominates, you're going to also close that 1% gap and do more dps as SV.

    Oh, one more thing - I just checked 10 man rankings because I was curious where your information was coming from. SV is actually ahead on 5 of the 6 fights in that raid size.


    The insinuation that Paragon went 10 man by choice means you're completely ignorant of the facts. Go read their blog. Also, they use a roster of 40 (20+20 alts) to stack the raid on every fight. Comparing them to... well... ANY other 10 man guild... is simply laughable.
    Err, no. I was implying that we need to find a way to improve on BM as is for the fights it is good at. And I went by 25 man stats. Quick pointer - you can have 2 specs. I really don't care which you use, my interest is with improving on BM in certain ways. Unless there was some hidden message attached to my initial post, I'm not sure where you're getting that I hate SV from.

    Secondly, when you point to SV having more top dps for SV, I looked through and it appears that this only happens with the top 1-3 players, who it is very easy to assume have far better gear than the rest of the list:

    10man
    - Stone Guard, clear SV favourite.
    - Feng, the top SV player is magically 4k dps ahead of everyone else on the SV list. He's the only SV player higher than the top 4 BM players. Which means either there was a huge luck factor, or he has better gear or was buffed in some way. BM favourite outside of that 1 incident.
    - Garaj, clear BM favourite.
    - Spirit Kings, clear BM favourite.
    - Elegon, clear BM favourite.
    - Will of the Emperor, barely SV favourite.

    So, no, I don't agree that SV is clearly better, but I don't at any point suggest just not using it.

  3. #23
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    Why get hung up on one spec? Regardless of what you like, you have to adapt and use the best one for each fight.

    On topic I go for crit haste mastery so I can swap between surv and bm as needed without reforging.

  4. #24
    Good job taking the thread off topic guys.
    This is not a SV or BM discussion thread.

    If you can provide information regarding the original post, please do. If you wish to discuss a different topic, start your own thread.

  5. #25
    As I was trying to say prior to the conversation going askew, I still think Haste is a superior stat. Looking at the maximum possible estimated (patchwerk) dps, Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer, Mastery is reforged away from instead of Haste. As I'd said earlier, our main problem is simply Cobra Shot usage and getting it cast faster so we can move on to our instants again.

    Removing about 500~ haste in favour of reforging to Mastery on that linked profile lead to a 325 dps loss. Switching the latency to 50ms and removing the same 500~ haste resulted in a 1100 dps loss. Haste to me, is clearly our favourite stat in this current range of gear.

    There will be a point at which Haste will become less valuable than Mastery, but it's not available at the moment.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinzai View Post
    As I was trying to say prior to the conversation going askew, I still think Haste is a superior stat. Looking at the maximum possible estimated (patchwerk) dps, Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer, Mastery is reforged away from instead of Haste. As I'd said earlier, our main problem is simply Cobra Shot usage and getting it cast faster so we can move on to our instants again.

    Removing about 500~ haste in favour of reforging to Mastery on that linked profile lead to a 325 dps loss. Switching the latency to 50ms and removing the same 500~ haste resulted in a 1100 dps loss. Haste to me, is clearly our favourite stat in this current range of gear.

    There will be a point at which Haste will become less valuable than Mastery, but it's not available at the moment.
    I get different results at femaledwarf with Mastery slightly beating out Haste. My latency setting is at 150 which is the max I see. I'm usually at 110-125.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Dch48 View Post
    I get different results at femaledwarf with Mastery slightly beating out Haste. My latency setting is at 150 which is the max I see. I'm usually at 110-125.
    Increasing the latency to 150 ms was a 3000~dps loss over 50ms and then reforging the same 500~ haste to mastery resulted in a further 249 dps loss for myself.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Veej View Post
    Good job taking the thread off topic guys.
    This is not a SV or BM discussion thread.

    If you can provide information regarding the original post, please do. If you wish to discuss a different topic, start your own thread.
    From the BM thread over at Elitist Jerks.

    Crit
    Almost all abilities crit for 200% damage, or 206% damage with a [insert meta].
    Mastery
    Mastery affects all damage done by our pet, including Kill Command. Mastery has undergone a slight change, as it is no longer visibly converted from rating to mastery to mastery effect, but jkust straight from mastery rating to effect. Behind the scenes, mastery is still coverted through both steps, and we need 600 mastery rating for 1 mastery. Each point of mastery (which we don't see) increases pet damage by 2%.
    Haste
    Haste affects both the speed of your shots (cobra and auto) and your rate of focus regeneration. You need 425 haste rating to get 1% haste. Haste effects generally scale multiplicatively. If you have 32% haste from gear and Rapid Fire, a base casting time of X would now be X/1.32/1.4. Procs that increase haste rating will stack additively with your total haste rating value (32% in this example). Focus regeneration is a base of 4 focus per second scaling multiplicatively with haste; i.e. 30% haste would be 4*1.3=5.2 fps. You will likely not see a huge increase in focus regen from upgrading gear.
    Haste does have a non negligable effect on the smoothness of the rotation, and may be subjectively better than mastery or crit, even though simming hasn't shown it to be worth it.

    Relative values
    Despite what simulation tools say, haste is not a very attractive stat over what we cannot avoid from gear. "Faux reforging" over several valus of secondary stats between haste, crit and mastery show that;

    • mastery and crit have a very high synergy
    • haste and crit have an okay synergy, though not as good as the one between mastery and crit
    • haste and mastery diminish eachother - in all cases it would be better to go either full haste or full mastery, with full mastery being significantly better within the observed min/max

    In addition I also found that
    • mastery and crit are very close together in value
    • mastery will be better then crit at more intervals than vice versa
    • a balance of mastery and crit shows better results than going purely for one or the other
    • while haste may show slightly better results at specific increases, it also does so at specific decreases, and shows loss just before and just after these points - this can only be due to dead time or shot shifting.
    • haste will, apart from the specific shot shifting points, be a loss over mastery or crit at all other tested points


    This leads to a valuation of:
    Agi>hit==exp (to cap)>>mastery>~crit>>haste

  9. #29
    *edit* My mistake, ignore this post. Too many threads open.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Thjasse View Post
    From the BM thread over at Elitist Jerks.

    Crit
    Almost all abilities crit for 200% damage, or 206% damage with a [insert meta].
    Mastery
    Mastery affects all damage done by our pet, including Kill Command. Mastery has undergone a slight change, as it is no longer visibly converted from rating to mastery to mastery effect, but jkust straight from mastery rating to effect. Behind the scenes, mastery is still coverted through both steps, and we need 600 mastery rating for 1 mastery. Each point of mastery (which we don't see) increases pet damage by 2%.
    Haste
    Haste affects both the speed of your shots (cobra and auto) and your rate of focus regeneration. You need 425 haste rating to get 1% haste. Haste effects generally scale multiplicatively. If you have 32% haste from gear and Rapid Fire, a base casting time of X would now be X/1.32/1.4. Procs that increase haste rating will stack additively with your total haste rating value (32% in this example). Focus regeneration is a base of 4 focus per second scaling multiplicatively with haste; i.e. 30% haste would be 4*1.3=5.2 fps. You will likely not see a huge increase in focus regen from upgrading gear.
    Haste does have a non negligable effect on the smoothness of the rotation, and may be subjectively better than mastery or crit, even though simming hasn't shown it to be worth it.

    Relative values
    Despite what simulation tools say, haste is not a very attractive stat over what we cannot avoid from gear. "Faux reforging" over several valus of secondary stats between haste, crit and mastery show that;

    • mastery and crit have a very high synergy
    • haste and crit have an okay synergy, though not as good as the one between mastery and crit
    • haste and mastery diminish eachother - in all cases it would be better to go either full haste or full mastery, with full mastery being significantly better within the observed min/max

    In addition I also found that
    • mastery and crit are very close together in value
    • mastery will be better then crit at more intervals than vice versa
    • a balance of mastery and crit shows better results than going purely for one or the other
    • while haste may show slightly better results at specific increases, it also does so at specific decreases, and shows loss just before and just after these points - this can only be due to dead time or shot shifting.
    • haste will, apart from the specific shot shifting points, be a loss over mastery or crit at all other tested points


    This leads to a valuation of:
    Agi>hit==exp (to cap)>>mastery>~crit>>haste
    I believe this was for the pre patch, please ignore this. The dps difference between haste and mastery now is small and dependent on your gear. Crit > haste > mastery is the best in my opinion simpy because of how it benefits both the hunter and the pet so if your pet has to run over to attack the target you still have some haste rating instead of losing all that mastery rating for a couple seconds.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    I believe this was for the pre patch, please ignore this. The dps difference between haste and mastery now is small and dependent on your gear. Crit > haste > mastery is the best in my opinion simpy because of how it benefits both the hunter and the pet so if your pet has to run over to attack the target you still have some haste rating instead of losing all that mastery rating for a couple seconds.
    except he made a post in the thread saying he updated it to 5.0.5.

    Haste is terribly unless you have enough to cross a threshold. Its really crappy before it and crappy after it but only good if you hit it on the head. Think about it logically and ignore the sims that are often so incorrect its comical.

    As BM your pet is half you damage give or take. Mastery is a direct buff to half your damage, for instance 3k mastery = 10% more pet damage if your pet does 10% more damage that means you are doing a total of 5% more damage just from the mastery buff. Haste doesn't have that kind of return. Expescially when you are talking smaller number 1 piece of gears worth of haste is going to show almost no change where as 1 piece with mastery is will always show an improvment.

    I'll say it again Haste is terrible unless you have enough for one of the thresholds, other then that it is a poor stat. BTW he first real threshold is 2900 haste to make Cobrashot 1.5 second with a windfurry buff on. Even making that threshold its still a smaller DPS return then have the near 10% pet damage increase from the same amount of mastery. Remember mastery helps dire beast as well so master in reality effects more then half you damage its actually a very good mastery.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    except he made a post in the thread saying he updated it to 5.0.5.

    Haste is terribly unless you have enough to cross a threshold. Its really crappy before it and crappy after it but only good if you hit it on the head. Think about it logically and ignore the sims that are often so incorrect its comical.

    As BM your pet is half you damage give or take. Mastery is a direct buff to half your damage, for instance 3k mastery = 10% more pet damage if your pet does 10% more damage that means you are doing a total of 5% more damage just from the mastery buff. Haste doesn't have that kind of return. Expescially when you are talking smaller number 1 piece of gears worth of haste is going to show almost no change where as 1 piece with mastery is will always show an improvment.

    I'll say it again Haste is terrible unless you have enough for one of the thresholds, other then that it is a poor stat. BTW he first real threshold is 2900 haste to make Cobrashot 1.5 second with a windfurry buff on. Even making that threshold its still a smaller DPS return then have the near 10% pet damage increase from the same amount of mastery. Remember mastery helps dire beast as well so master in reality effects more then half you damage its actually a very good mastery.
    After doing some serious checking, it appears the soft cap for Haste is around 3700~3800. 3700 Haste is a far bigger boost to dps than 3700 mastery. Your pet is directly affected by your Haste, meaning it will attack more often, regen more focus and have more chances at critical hits. Mastery is a flat dps increase, Haste is a curving increase that peaks around the 3700 mark. This correlates with most previous patches/expansions where we've always had a core base Haste to aim for, after which we can promptly forget about the stat forever.

    The reasons why Haste has such high synergy with BM:

    Go for the Throat - Auto Shot crits generate 15 focus for your pet. Firing faster results in more pet focus. Until you hit the 3700+ Haste mark, your pet will always have times when it's lacking focus to use its basic attack. This also means less time spent casting Cobra Shot for us.
    Invigoration - Every time your pet deals damage with a basic attack, you have a 15% chance to gain 20 focus. Again, the more attacks your pet does, the more instants you will gain access too.
    Dire Beast - Dire Beast's number of attacks are effected by your Haste and it gains far more damage from high Haste than high Mastery.

    The less Cobra Shots we have to fire and the faster we fire them, the more instants we get to use - ie Arcane Shot spam. Although giving your pet a 10% dps buff is nice and all, it doesn't mean your total dps will increase by 10%. It's more like a 3-4% total dps increase.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinzai View Post
    After doing some serious checking, it appears the soft cap for Haste is around 3700~3800. 3700 Haste is a far bigger boost to dps than 3700 mastery. Your pet is directly affected by your Haste, meaning it will attack more often, regen more focus and have more chances at critical hits. Mastery is a flat dps increase, Haste is a curving increase that peaks around the 3700 mark. This correlates with most previous patches/expansions where we've always had a core base Haste to aim for, after which we can promptly forget about the stat forever.

    The reasons why Haste has such high synergy with BM:

    Go for the Throat - Auto Shot crits generate 15 focus for your pet. Firing faster results in more pet focus. Until you hit the 3700+ Haste mark, your pet will always have times when it's lacking focus to use its basic attack. This also means less time spent casting Cobra Shot for us.
    Invigoration - Every time your pet deals damage with a basic attack, you have a 15% chance to gain 20 focus. Again, the more attacks your pet does, the more instants you will gain access too.
    Dire Beast - Dire Beast's number of attacks are effected by your Haste and it gains far more damage from high Haste than high Mastery.

    The less Cobra Shots we have to fire and the faster we fire them, the more instants we get to use - ie Arcane Shot spam. Although giving your pet a 10% dps buff is nice and all, it doesn't mean your total dps will increase by 10%. It's more like a 3-4% total dps increase.
    funny how that is exactly the opposite what the EJ forums and several others have said....

    With pets doing 50%ish of your damage if they go up by 10% then your total DPS does up 5%.. its VERY simple math. Mastery also increase Kill Command which is out best "nuke" ability.

    Whatever i'll keep doing what the math back you do what every you think is good even though its the opposite of the math.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dch48 View Post
    I would say that the order is Crit>Mastery>Haste and the femaledwarf.com site supports that. Also for BM, even though AMoC does sim out higher on single target fights, I still prefer Lynx Rush because it's awesome if you get more than one mob on you or in AOE situations. It doesn't get parried as often as some people are saying and maybe FD has it wrong as well. The only problem I have noticed is that in the Golden Lotus daily to kill the Behemoth, Lynx Rush will not work for some strange reason. It keeps saying out of range but all other pet attacks hit just fine.
    Yeah I've noticed several cases where LR bugs like that, which is why I switched to Crows and so far I'm not really noticing much of a difference from the change.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Thjasse View Post
    From the BM thread over at Elitist Jerks.

    Crit
    Almost all abilities crit for 200% damage, or 206% damage with a [insert meta].
    Mastery
    Mastery affects all damage done by our pet, including Kill Command. Mastery has undergone a slight change, as it is no longer visibly converted from rating to mastery to mastery effect, but jkust straight from mastery rating to effect. Behind the scenes, mastery is still coverted through both steps, and we need 600 mastery rating for 1 mastery. Each point of mastery (which we don't see) increases pet damage by 2%.
    Haste
    Haste affects both the speed of your shots (cobra and auto) and your rate of focus regeneration. You need 425 haste rating to get 1% haste. Haste effects generally scale multiplicatively. If you have 32% haste from gear and Rapid Fire, a base casting time of X would now be X/1.32/1.4. Procs that increase haste rating will stack additively with your total haste rating value (32% in this example). Focus regeneration is a base of 4 focus per second scaling multiplicatively with haste; i.e. 30% haste would be 4*1.3=5.2 fps. You will likely not see a huge increase in focus regen from upgrading gear.
    Haste does have a non negligable effect on the smoothness of the rotation, and may be subjectively better than mastery or crit, even though simming hasn't shown it to be worth it.

    Relative values
    Despite what simulation tools say, haste is not a very attractive stat over what we cannot avoid from gear. "Faux reforging" over several valus of secondary stats between haste, crit and mastery show that;

    • mastery and crit have a very high synergy
    • haste and crit have an okay synergy, though not as good as the one between mastery and crit
    • haste and mastery diminish eachother - in all cases it would be better to go either full haste or full mastery, with full mastery being significantly better within the observed min/max

    In addition I also found that
    • mastery and crit are very close together in value
    • mastery will be better then crit at more intervals than vice versa
    • a balance of mastery and crit shows better results than going purely for one or the other
    • while haste may show slightly better results at specific increases, it also does so at specific decreases, and shows loss just before and just after these points - this can only be due to dead time or shot shifting.
    • haste will, apart from the specific shot shifting points, be a loss over mastery or crit at all other tested points


    This leads to a valuation of:
    Agi>hit==exp (to cap)>>mastery>~crit>>haste
    Sadly enough EJ isn't right, and that's probably the reason why it's not updated or quite vague on their updates.

    Crit > Haste > Mastery ... till a certain cap then Mastery jumps over Haste.

    -

    BM is ahead of SV no matter what the parse results are. The reason why SV is higher parses are easily explained by :

    1) Pet uptime, are people using their pets properly are they constantly on a target?
    2) Are people using their cds at the right times to get the max out of BM?

    If you answer these questions than the majority of parses are already invalid by default.

    SV also parses higher because as a hunter in sv, you do all the dmg, the pet does basically nothing. The fact that SV scales better with gear than BM currently does, at full bis levels sv will be 10k behind bm in most fights that are single target. Parses only explain how good a certian player plays a certain spec but never at any point gives an accurate reading of which spec is better or not.
    Last edited by Hazori; 2012-10-13 at 10:32 PM.

  16. #36
    As has been said, Haste is only better if you reach a new plateau. At all other times, Mastery wins out.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    Funny thing is the bulk of raiders don't give a damn about 25m... Most raiding guilds do 10 mans now.

    Look at the main page World first was a 10 man guild.
    so because the best 25 man guild in the world became 10 man due to the fact that many of there raiders stop wow and at the same time the guild did what it was doing on every tier BE 1ST but in 10 man which you like it or not its easier suddenly nobody gives a dam about 25 mans

    Most raiding guilds do 10 mans now.
    most of the ppl take the easy way

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by pinkpanter View Post
    so because the best 25 man guild in the world became 10 man due to the fact that many of there raiders stop wow and at the same time the guild did what it was doing on every tier BE 1ST but in 10 man which you like it or not its easier suddenly nobody gives a dam about 25 mans



    most of the ppl take the easy way
    its not a matter of easy vs hard. In the current wow community the number of players with the intelligence above that of a drooling idiot is getting smaller and smaller. On top of that keeping 25 people on the same page is more of a hassle. 25m in terms of difficulty is not harder then 10m its more of a pain int he ass to get 25 players who are more useful then a pet rock.

    but that is off topic.


    Haste for BM is a bad stat untill you hit the plateaus and then its terrible over and under them mastery just overall is better.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    its not a matter of easy vs hard. In the current wow community the number of players with the intelligence above that of a drooling idiot is getting smaller and smaller. On top of that keeping 25 people on the same page is more of a hassle. 25m in terms of difficulty is not harder then 10m its more of a pain int he ass to get 25 players who are more useful then a pet rock.

    but that is off topic.


    Haste for BM is a bad stat untill you hit the plateaus and then its terrible over and under them mastery just overall is better.
    And you've tested Haste vs Mastery yourself, or are you still just parroting out of date data? If you actually look at what was last updated on the EJ BM thread, you'd see this - "Last edited by Nooska : 10/05/12 at 11:37 AM. Reason: Changed Cooldown notes, added talents, glyphs, gems and enchants sections". The information on stat ratings is not up to date. It doesn't even reference a Haste plateau, just the basic Haste calculations and some vague assertions that Haste may be better at some times rather than others.

    On femaledwarf, the recent change to Rabid has given a 3k increase in dps to the top BM dps spec that I linked earlier. Removing a 25% attack power bonus and replacing it with an attack speed bonus resulted in a damage buff. This directly shows that Haste effects result in more damage. Less burst, higher dps.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinzai View Post
    And you've tested Haste vs Mastery yourself, or are you still just parroting out of date data? If you actually look at what was last updated on the EJ BM thread, you'd see this - "Last edited by Nooska : 10/05/12 at 11:37 AM. Reason: Changed Cooldown notes, added talents, glyphs, gems and enchants sections". The information on stat ratings is not up to date. It doesn't even reference a Haste plateau, just the basic Haste calculations and some vague assertions that Haste may be better at some times rather than others.

    On femaledwarf, the recent change to Rabid has given a 3k increase in dps to the top BM dps spec that I linked earlier. Removing a 25% attack power bonus and replacing it with an attack speed bonus resulted in a damage buff. This directly shows that Haste effects result in more damage. Less burst, higher dps.
    1% of more damage is 1% more damage 1% more haste does not equal 1% more damage do you not understand that?


    Haste is very good at certain thresholds outside of that it is a misrable stat.

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