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  1. #161
    IF people stay until the end of the dungeon... they get some Valor!
    IF they quit as soon as they have the item, you have a two second wait.. then you get another player who gets Valor!

    You've never joined a dungeon on the last boss and thought "Sweet, I only have to do one boss for this random and I get my valor" ???

    Well if you have you can thank people that quit half way. It's not like you EVER have to wait more than 2 seconds (unless it's a tank.. and then maybe 20) for a replacement, so I can't see how anybody could get upset about this unless they didn't get any loot and are pissed.

    I drop out of groups all the time if I don't need the valor, with the nice thought that whoever takes over after me gets a short dungeon.

  2. #162
    Pit Lord tommypilgrim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chry View Post
    Fixed that for you.

    Also, where did you get the whole tyrant about NPC blockers and people who don't use lightwell? Not really sure they are on topic... or even relevant at all.
    You're right, this one time somebody left my dungeon group and I didn't get regrouped for a whole five days. I had to sit there, alone, without food nor water, in a pile of my own shit.

    The non-lightwellers and NPC coverers are in a similar bracket as people who drop dungeons. Selfish, selfish people ruining the game for the rest of us by not playing how the game intended. We clearly need to stop them from playing the game at all!
    Did you like the above post? How about sending me a dollar? I'd have adverts here but apparently that'd break ToS.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Chry View Post
    If they have real life issues, then they shouldn't queue up for the dungeon at all.

    Remember people, I don't care about random individuals leaving. That's fine, I understand there's real life happening.

    However, I do care about people leaving after they win a piece of loot - because it was premeditated. They knew they were going to go in there, fight their way to that boss, take the loot if it dropped and leave right after it gets put in their bags. It's just rude.
    Please tell me your secret to making life happen on your schedule. How do you even know if people left because they won loot or because they didn't win loot? You don't know what's premeditated or not.

  4. #164
    Brewmaster Chry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SherbertLand View Post
    Please tell me your secret to making life happen on your schedule. How do you even know if people left because they won loot or because they didn't win loot? You don't know what's premeditated or not.
    Usually, if someone has a GOOD reason to leave they'll let the group know.

    Otherwise, they just leave the group without a word.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Chry View Post
    Usually, if someone has a GOOD reason to leave they'll let the group know.

    Otherwise, they just leave the group without a word.
    There's no way to know if someone left for a good or bad reason, so punishing them even further doesn't really seem necessary. They're not running heroics to gear the group out, if that were so, it would be a guild group. They're running to get themselves geared, just like you when you queue alone.

  6. #166
    The Lightbringer Mandible's Avatar
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    To the first bit I can only say "Who cares?". If people don´t want to do the rest of the instance, and possibly sit with a deserter buff on their hands its their choice. All you do is reqq and you get another player in - its no big deal.

    In regards to the second bit I´d tend to agree for the most of it at least. It should be easy enough for people to do a second role by now without having to resort to needing on items that isn´t set for their current role, so I´m for items being fixed for role / spec check. But as it stands atm the loot system is bugged when it comes to who can need on what items.

    On a more or less related sidenote - why on earth is it still possible to need on lockboxes when rogues does not need to level it anymore? They changed it with the dmf quest items so why not this too...
    "Only Jack can zip up."
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  7. #167
    Brewmaster Chry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SherbertLand View Post
    There's no way to know if someone left for a good or bad reason, so punishing them even further doesn't really seem necessary. They're not running heroics to gear the group out, if that were so, it would be a guild group. They're running to get themselves geared, just like you when you queue alone.
    Right, however, when someone leaves RIGHT after they win the piece of loot it is easily assumable that they left for their own selfish greed.

    Leaving 5 minutes after the loot had gone out, perhaps during trash, would be a more reasonable and understandable time to leave.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Chry View Post
    Right, however, when someone leaves RIGHT after they win the piece of loot it is easily assumable that they left for their own selfish greed.

    Leaving 5 minutes after the loot had gone out, perhaps during trash, would be a more reasonable and understandable time to leave.
    Or maybe they needed to leave during the boss and didn't want to be an asshole? Unless you would rather they left during the boss?

  9. #169
    Brewmaster Chry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SherbertLand View Post
    Or maybe they needed to leave during the boss and didn't want to be an asshole? Unless you would rather they left during the boss?
    Then it would be perfectly reasonable for them to explain why they're leaving. And yes, I would rather them leave in the middle of a bossfight. It's obviously important that they have to leave right then, so why stop them?

    Or do they just want to get that piece off the boss and bail?
    Last edited by Chry; 2012-10-12 at 01:25 AM.

  10. #170
    Thoughts? I should be able to drop group whenever because of whatever issue without being punished other than the dungeon cooldown. Losing an item over that is ridiculous, especially since a lot of people queue specific to do a specific boss for a specific item (hi siege trinket).

    I don't think there's anything to be fixed, you can't fix people being assholes. What you can do however is improve the loot system as a whole, I think that should be the main priority to 'fix' anything.

  11. #171
    one day u will wake up and find out that wow has evolved durning 7 yrs as u say. u dun have to fly to dungeon with ur group, b4 even summoning stones was created.
    U keep saying how wow was, long time ago, ye it was like that without battlegroups etc u leaved ur group and ninja smt u got screwed on ur serv now who cares if u leave its not liek u run on ur ground mount back to sw/ orgi to ask for dps/tank at those days u have to wait for 30min or more for replace, smt just abadon the whole run and start it over again after u go back to city and run new group.

    Here is a q for all who say that system is not working atm: do u prefer to remove summonig stones, lfg,lfr and bring back vanila style game? i bet 99% even old players say NO! why? cus u get older then u was 7 yr ago when u started... i got kids wife job, still some old friends , and a game witch lucky for me evolved other way i could not play anymore cus of lack of time...so again old system was better? i agree its not perfect now but it never was and will never be cus if u gather 10 ppl in the room and show them one solution probably u will get atleast few difrent opinions. what about 10mln ppl?

    sry for my poor eng,

    i hail to all old vanila players who still play the game in new way keeping in minds how it was yr ago and how much better for us is now...

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Chry View Post
    Then it would be perfectly reasonable for them to explain why they're leaving. And yes, I would rather them leave in the middle of a bossfight. It's obviously important that they have to leave right then, so why stop them?

    Or do they just want to get that piece off the boss and bail?
    It sounds like you care more about denying that person loot than the actual action they took.

  13. #173
    you're spending a lot of time and effort on a non problem.

    if you kill a boss, you deserve whatever he has.

    it really is that simple...

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoopie View Post
    you're spending a lot of time and effort on a non problem.

    if you kill a boss, you deserve whatever he has.

    it really is that simple...
    You do deserve anything that boss has if you kill the boss, this thread isn't about soloing content. It's about groups.

  15. #175
    A minor correction: Leaving early shafts the 4 people left behind (and if it's a tank, that can be for 5 minutes or more... which is a large percentage of the time the whole run would normally take), and it also punishes the replacement player by not letting them have a chance at the exact boss they probably want to farm.

    However, I think the real question here is:

    "Does the deserter debuff do its job, and if not, how should it be changed to make sure that it does?"

    Given that Blizzard even added the debuff in the first place, arguments about whether or not Blizzard is ok with players quitting dungeon runs early are moot. However, at the moment there's a ton of things people can get on with while they're waiting for their debuff to run down, so not being able to queue isn't much of a deterrent.

    For that reason, I don't think the debuff isn't doing its job. Especially when I first hit 90, about 20% of my heroic runs had someone leaving early, usually the tank, and it was incredibly annoying. In a few cases, the replacement left immediately once they released we'd already killed the boss they were after so we had to wait even longer.

    IMO, Blizzard should make the following changes:

    1. If you have the debuff, you can still queue for LFD.
    2. If you have the debuff, you can't roll need.
    3. The timer doesn't count down unless you're in an LFD group, and in a dungeon.

    The last one is probably technically tricky, but I don't really care about the details However, in essence what it means is that if you ditch one run, you lose the right to roll need on your next run. That seems fair to me. However, they should add a 'disband group' voting option as a way out if the whole group agrees that things aren't working out.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Catalept View Post
    A minor correction: Leaving early shafts the 4 people left behind (and if it's a tank, that can be for 5 minutes or more... which is a large percentage of the time the whole run would normally take), and it also punishes the replacement player by not letting them have a chance at the exact boss they probably want to farm.

    However, I think the real question here is:

    "Does the deserter debuff do its job, and if not, how should it be changed to make sure that it does?"

    Given that Blizzard even added the debuff in the first place, arguments about whether or not Blizzard is ok with players quitting dungeon runs early are moot. However, at the moment there's a ton of things people can get on with while they're waiting for their debuff to run down, so not being able to queue isn't much of a deterrent.

    For that reason, I don't think the debuff isn't doing its job. Especially when I first hit 90, about 20% of my heroic runs had someone leaving early, usually the tank, and it was incredibly annoying. In a few cases, the replacement left immediately once they released we'd already killed the boss they were after so we had to wait even longer.

    IMO, Blizzard should make the following changes:

    1. If you have the debuff, you can still queue for LFD.
    2. If you have the debuff, you can't roll need.
    3. The timer doesn't count down unless you're in an LFD group, and in a dungeon.

    The last one is probably technically tricky, but I don't really care about the details However, in essence what it means is that if you ditch one run, you lose the right to roll need on your next run. That seems fair to me. However, they should add a 'disband group' voting option as a way out if the whole group agrees that things aren't working out.
    That's a good way to get people to force themselves to get kicked. Have fun with what they do to get you to do that.

  17. #177
    OMG YES NEED MORE FREE LOOT FROM DUNGEON SPAM GIMMEH BLIZZARD - pretty much what this thread sounds like

    ninjas have been around since people could steal from each other since the beginning of time ... sorry if u lost a pixely item i feel bad for u really ... but if u really wanted it u should have farmed it with people you know

    quitters well i just ignore them totally since im normally the tank or the healer and just pull smaller and wait for the group to be refilled ... you can pretty much 3 man a dungeon with cc and people that arnt completely idiotic and dont pull like 2398230 bajillion mobs

    blizzs new looting system is bad but just roll need on it if u want it and pray for the best result imo

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by SherbertLand View Post
    That's a good way to get people to force themselves to get kicked. Have fun with what they do to get you to do that.
    Well, the extent to which people aren't already trying to get themselves kicked demonstrates how ineffective the deserter debuff is, doesn't it? Although I'd like to think that only a small subset of the people who think it's ok to leave early are pathological enough to deliberately grief a group so they can get kicked... perhaps I'm wrong, though.

    I suppose it's the age-old problem of designing a reward-punishment system when you're trying to manage the behavior of people who don't care about the punishment. In which case, I guess the answer for WoW is the same as that in real life... "Sorry about the sociopaths. We've done the best we can, but I'm afraid you'll just have to put up with them."

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by rogueMatthias View Post
    You've never joined a dungeon on the last boss and thought "Sweet, I only have to do one boss for this random and I get my valor" ???
    Usually, if it happens to me, it's more like, "WTF, the boss I needed is already dead and now I can't leave because otherwise I'll get a debuff!"

    But yeah, keep thinking you're doing other people favors I guess.

    You know, when a DPS drops group, the game should just drop a NPC in its place to make up the other spot. It'd be just as useful, but it wouldn't take any of my loot. And it would make sure DPS queue times stay nice and long so you guys get some time to think about how you didn't value playing with others enough to stay in group.

    Actually, I'd like a new mode where I can just run with all NPCs so I don't have to deal with other people.

    Oh wait... Brawler's Guild!

  20. #180
    I think the very core of the problem is that justice points are worthless, and you only get decent valor once a day.
    I do my 1 random a day for the valor. After that I run specifics for the gear I need, as soon as I beat the boss it drops from I'm gone.
    Why? Because the rewards for doing dungeons in general are crap.

    If justice gear was at least as high as the drops, there would be less obsessing over specific dungeons and specific drops.

    There are a number of ways it could be handled but really, dungeons need to have equivalent rewards to dailies. Soloable daily quests having the best rewards in an mmorpg game is kind of silly. So justice needs to be worth something, dungeons need to drop lesser charms, and grant rep with a faction.(this could be handled by putting repeatable quests inside the dungeon, only doable once per run, only accessible if you queued via LFD and haven't quit a dungeon in 3 hours).

    As far as ninjaing goes they just should just go to the new LFR system or use the old role based LFR loot system. But honestly if justice was worth a damn thing, I could care less if someone ninjad something.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-12 at 01:14 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Appletini View Post
    Usually, if it happens to me, it's more like, "WTF, the boss I needed is already dead and now I can't leave because otherwise I'll get a debuff!"
    ...
    I've been bailing a lot lately, and it seems that when I bail on an in progress run that I get pulled into I didn't get the debuff. Could just have been a bug, as I don't get too many in progress runs but like I said I didn't get a debuff. The only time I seem to get it is if I bail before the first boss. I've bailed right after first boss, and I can't que again because of the 15 min timer thing(but with only a few minutes left on it), but I didn't get the 30 min debuff.

    edit: to the person you were replying to, the valor bonus is only decent for the first run of the day. After that the difference between doing it and running a couple of dailies is pretty minimal. If I was pulled in right in front of the last boss, I'd do it, but if it was right after the previous boss depending on my mood, the dungeon, amount of trash etc... I may just bail. If the amount of valor you got was substantial it would be a reason to stay.
    Last edited by jbombard; 2012-10-12 at 04:18 AM.

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