Solution to dungeon Quitting & Ninjas.

[DeadmanWalking]

So if you want an answer to this completely unrelated and unfitting analogy: If not a minute later someone is completely removing the mess, why would I care?

Yeah right I'm calling B.S. on you. If you went out to your car and found someone had shit on your windshield and you had to wait 10 seconds (not to mention a whole minute) for someone to clean it off your windshield you would go bat shit and you know it. If you didnt run around looking for the responcible person to punch in the face you would be screaming, "What kind of person does this!? Who in their right mind would take a dump on someones windshield when they could of just held it for a few minutes until they could find a bathroom!?"

Thanks for proving my point.

[Puri]

Yeah right I'm calling B.S. on you. If you went out to your car and found someone had shit on your windshield and you had to wait 10 seconds (not to mention a whole minute) for someone to clean it off your windshield you would go bat shit and you know it. If you didnt run around looking for the responcible person to punch in the face you would be screaming, "What kind of person does this!? Who in their right mind would take a dump on someones windshield when they could of just held it for a few minutes until they could find a bathroom!?"

As already stated, it is a completely different situation than leaving a dungeon group. The consequences are completely different.
But to bring it down to the original problem: If I know I park somewhere where some crazy people live that shit on my windshield and after they do it someone else is coming and cleaning it up, I would definitely not go "bat shit", but simply shrug my shoulders and wait for the cleaner.

[Ebbikenezer]

You know what really grinds my gears?

The fact that after seven years of WoW, people can still leave dungeon groups right after they get their item, or ninja items that other people deserve more.

Solution #1 - Quitting Groups

If a group doesn't consist only of you and people from your friend list or guild, then the game will check for the first person to click 'Leave group' within 5 minutes of getting a superior or epic item and before the dungeon has finished. That person will lose the item he just looted as he quits the group.

Do you know what kind of code logic nightmare this is, given the current way the game runs? Do you know how many issues it would cause, and how many potential working code lines it would most likely break? While I don't think the idea is horrible, the implementation is just... not even feasible, not in a satisfactory amount of time. Also: coding someone "clicking" a button doesn't really work, not as far as discerning WHY they did it, and what about if my internet goes out? What if I leave a group because something comes up and I need 20 minutes? YOU should HAVE to wait for me, right? Because, me leaving needs to be punished.

In addition to this, if a a player finishes an entire dungeon (since his or her time of joining the group), then that player receive a 10% chance of receiving a final bonus item appropriate to their class and specc, randomly selected from all current level dungeons. After a second dungeon, this will increase to 20%, and so on, until you're at 100% at which point you'll receive an epic item. This buff should have a 24 hour cooldown, so then you'll have to start working on it again, and perhaps it should also reset once you receive an epic item.

What if I que up as a healer, because I am after a DPS trinket, but I have uber healing gear, a shorter que, and it will generally be much better, overall, for the party? I can only get loot for healing, even though I already have better gear? Terrible idea. To do that, I would agree, ONLY if they also stripped dual spec back out of the game, else: No, just no. I have two specs, I play them both viably, I would like the option to gear them both at my leisure. The 10% thing isn't a bad idea, but this runs into more coding issues, which would probably take a lot of regression testing and debugging before they could even think about it. 24 Hour CD as in: You can't get it again for 24 hours, or it resets in 24 hours? Because: I won't run 10 dungeons in a 24 hour period and... if it is on CD for 24 hours, then when does that kick in? After you receive an epic? Which leads me to your next part: "Perhaps" it should reset?!?!?!?!? PERHAPS?!??!? Nah, let's have everyone cruise aaround with their 100% epic drop buff for... well, for as long as they run a dungeon once a day.
Solution #2 - Ninjas


When Blizzard level designers create a new dungeon, each item they implement as loot should be categorised as appropriate for agility users, tanks, dmg casters, and so on. As soon as an item drops from a boss, only people who can genuinely benefit from it will be allowed to roll. Once they've all selected greed or turned down the roll, anyone else may roll as well.

Waaaaaaayyyy too subjective. YOUR "genuinely benefit" and MY "genuinely benefit" are probably vastly different and even more different from the next poster. I absolutely "genuinely benefit" rolling on a piece of gear I simply want for transmog as it helps me enjoy the game more.

Thoughts?

See above, red font.

My thoughts, in response to yours.

[Rorillane]

Solution 1 is ridiculous and goes against what blizzard has said. They don't want you to be "guaranteed" loot. (Excuse VP/daily stuff) It would never happen. Not even a 10% chance. This shouldn't be some type of D3 system where as you kill heroic bosses you gain a stacking buff (NV) and have a better chance at stuff until which point its guranteed. Heroics would be rendered useless and everyone would have welfare epics.

Solution 2 used to be in place. A hunter could only roll on mail AGI gear and nothing else. This system seems to either be bugging or hasnt been put into the new dungeons, and will most likely find its way in the near future.

I'm partially against option 2 aswell. I que for heroics as a healer and roll on DPS gear because its faster for me to que, and it helps ques for other people. LFR Kind of makes me rage that I can't control what version of loot I get (Dps/heals) only based on the spec I am at the time of kill. If this solution were in place, your que times for both heroics and LFR would skyrocket at certain periods of time during a raid life cycle.

I think solution 2 should be revised to only being able to roll on gear of your item class. Paladin rolls on plate, priest on cloth, etc. Regardless of the type of stats. This would help keep healthy que times, and not make me angrypandaface.

[neccowafer]

The problem with the suggestion brought up over and over to just "do LFR loot in LFD" is the fact that the developers WANT you to be able to get some offspec gear in 5 mans. You can't get any offspec gear with the LFR loot system, meaning that if you are a tank and want to build a dps set, you need to go buy an entire set off of the AH, or go back and get questing greens to start in, and then queue for dps, in your greens, to start getting a decent dps set.

Ditto for the other way around. We'd likely see a lot less LFD tanks and healers because a lot of them are main spec dps when they raid and only go heals or tank for queue time. If it took that much more effort for them to build a set, they likely wouldn't bother. And I don't include valor items in this because they are rather difficult to get and if you raid you're unlikely to get to blow them all on offspec pieces.

If they could come up with something like LFR but where you get to choose what spec(s) of yours you want to be eligible for loot, then maybe they could bring that to LFD. You'd have the same overall chance to get loot, just it'd be split between specs you choose. So if you're a fully geared tank pally and you want a holy set, you could just pick holy gear only and start getting that set worked on instead, at LFR normal odds and pacing.

[DeadmanWalking]

I don't have a problem with not getting offspec gear in LFR loot system, if you want gear for offspec then play as the offspec once in a while. Want Tank gear? Play as the tank.

[Royalite]

Putting a penality is no a good idea. Too many people will get upset when forces outside their control prevent them from finishing (ie power outage, emergency, disconnects, game crashes). Providing an incentive to complete the dungeon would be a better idea.

[Deleted]

Solution #2 - Ninjas


When Blizzard level designers create a new dungeon, each item they implement as loot should be categorised as appropriate for agility users, tanks, dmg casters, and so on. As soon as an item drops from a boss, only people who can genuinely benefit from it will be allowed to roll. Once they've all selected greed or turned down the roll, anyone else may roll as well.


Thoughts?

You know what? I play a blood DK, tank, and the best gear for me have hit/expertise>mastery>haste>dodge/parry.
So in most case, I want some piece of gear that people who dont know about the blood spec would call DPS gear.

With your idea, I'm screwed if I'm tagged "tank" and can only roll on parry dodge shit.
And what about the cloth dps classes who wants spitits stuff because of the spirit-->hit conversion?

Thoughts?

[neccowafer]

I don't have a problem with not getting offspec gear in LFR loot system, if you want gear for offspec then play as the offspec once in a while. Want Tank gear? Play as the tank.

But dungeons should be where you obtain that offspec gear in the first place, to play as the tank. Unless you're suggesting I queue as tank without any tank gear, or while only wearing the 393 quest greens that I can obtain from a vendor. LFR is different because you should have already geared up the spec you want to play with dungeons in order to do it. Dungeons are the first step. And no, I'm not suggesting you have to "take" everything from the tank, but there will come a point where most people running heroics don't actually need the gear and that's when you can pick up offspec pieces. That's how I pick up Enh gear running as Restoration Shaman. Lots of times there's no one in the group who even wears mail besides me, so I just take it and no one cares. If you're a dps Warrior wanting to gear as tank, sometimes the tank will be a DK, Guardian, or BM, and not need that shield, so you can pick it up. And if they're BM/Guardian then they also don't wear plate, so you can pick it up.

Additionally running scenarios as tank is less useful than being a dps so you can't really count on them to gear your offset, especially with how little of the time they actually give gear. Ditto except x100 for running as a healer. Healers are basically completely useless unless they can do significant dps, like a disc priest.

[Tziva]

I really don't think people leaving dungeon runs in the middle of a run is something that needs to be "fixed." Replacement is usually quick, and unless it's a tank or a healer you can continue without them while you wait (and oftentimes even if it is a tank or healer). Unless they leave in the middle of a fight, I don't really understand why it would bother people, much less seem like a critical issue that needs fixed by bribing people to stay longer.

If you make a premade group with people you know, I can totally understand the obligation to stay so your friends don't get stuck having to replace you with a PuG, but for a bunch of random strangers in LFD, why would you care if PuG X leaves and you get PuG Y instead? We're all there for something, whether it is a piece of loot or point currency or whatever. If some dude only needed one piece of loot and it didn't drop, why shouldn't he take off so someone else who might need gear off the final boss be able to come in and have a shot at it?

[Deleted]

If a group doesn't consist only of you and people from your friend list or guild, then the game will check for the first person to click 'Leave group' within 5 minutes of getting a superior or epic item and before the dungeon has finished. That person will lose the item he just looted as he quits the group.

Only thing I don't like is this part. People shouldn't lose their items just because they want to go.

[neccowafer]

Only thing I don't like is this part. People shouldn't lose their items just because they want to go.

Rather than "losing" items I think it'd be a more elegant solution to hold items in a bank that are only rolled on at the very end of the dungeon. The idea of "taking it away" seems too punitive, but just not getting to roll because you left before rolls is more of a "oh well I had to leave. got some jp."

[yjmark]

Rather than "losing" items I think it'd be a more elegant solution to hold items in a bank that are only rolled on at the very end of the dungeon. The idea of "taking it away" seems too punitive, but just not getting to roll because you left before rolls is more of a "oh well I had to leave. got some jp."

This is a decent idea. Have only the last boss drop loot. However, you have to kill al the other bosses to get to the last boss. Obviously, this is for LFD only. Not LFR.

[Deleted]

Getting a guaranteed epic and having a 100% chance to actually get an item a little too far just because you ran 10 dungeons. But generally I like both solutions. #1 will need to be tweaked a bit to not get such high values. Go post on WoW forums and hope for a blue to read it.

[Zeek Daniels]

I think solution 1 is bull crap. What if i had an emergency and had to leave a group after a boss fight? What if i was running a dungeon and lost track of time and had to go but wanted to get 1 more boss fight in? Why am i being penalized?

Here is what a ninja is. A ninja is a person who either has control over loot distribution and uses that control to take items for himself without prior knowlege of others involved. AKA a LootMaster in a raid putting items in his bags and not allowing others to roll on them.
-If this raid had preset rules and items on reserve then him taking those reserve items is not being a ninja

Here is what a ninja is not. A person lets say a Disc priest running a random dungeon with 4 other players. Boss drops a trinket with Hit, spellpower and mastery. If the disc priest Hits NEED, he is not being a ninja, he is gearing his offspec.
If a Feral Druid hits NEED on a Spirit/Crit staff, he is not being a ninja he is gearing his offspec.

Blame blizz for having multiple specs dont blame the players for wanting to play multiple styles

Pretty sure there are so many safe guards nowadays that you cant ninja an item. Needing on Offspecs is not ninjaing no matter how bad you want that item.

[Deleted]

Considering how many posters are against these ideas, I suppose I am simply caught in the collective mindset of the community from 2-3 years back, when people actually cared about being polite and decent to other players, and working together to achieve things.

Let me ask you: what is the point of even having dungeons in the game if their sole purpose is to provide the individual player with quick items? They could easily implement more single player experiences instead, like big epic quests for your class or some sort of solo-dungeon. Those could challenge us even more than dungeons do, and wouldn't require queues.

But they don't, because this is an MMORPG, and Blizzard want it to be mostly a multi-player experience where people fight the perils of Azeroth together as teams. The fact that so many consider it to be perfectly normal to leave dungeons in the middle of it, right after getting their own loot, is only an indicator that Blizzard is doing something wrong, and not that it's the right thing to do or working as intended.

A lot of people would probably loot hardware stores too, if there weren't any alarms or police around - that doesn't mean it's the way things are intended, or should be.

While my ideas certainly need work before implementation, and a whole array of factors would have to be considered as well for each little decision, I think dismissing them or the issue we have as wrong, lame, or bad is simply ignorant.

So to summarise:
Okay, perhaps you shouldn't be penalized for wanting to go at it solo-style and only think about the fastest way to your own character's progression. We all have different ideas of what is fun, and spending time with others isn't fun for everyone.

However, dungeons were intended to be cooperative challenges. And because they have a beginning, a middle, and an end, they are obviously meant to be completed. Otherwise these bosses would be offered as solo encounters. The fact that Blizzard also offers extra reward for finishing a dungeon supports this fact, too.

I say it is up to Blizzard to make sure running full dungeons is fun, rewarding, and efficient enough to everyone in order to make sure people stay through the whole thing.
While my ideas aren't perfect, they are attempts at improving an obviously bad situation.

[Algearond]

I think solution 2 would have the better result.

[Yoshimiko]

You've got to be joking.

Look, I can see why you would attempt to defend this kind of behaviour if you do it yourself, but don't pretend like it's not wrong.

The vast majority of people I get grouped up with stay until the end of the dungeon, and they do it a) because of the chance of more rewards, and b) because it's the right thing to do.

Whenever someone leaves the rest always go 'wtf?', 'sigh', 'ninja', or something along those lines. It's perfectly clear that the majority of players consider it an obvious responsibility to stay until a dungeon is finished or until the group for some reason falls apart.

This wasn't even up for discussion a couple of years back. A person who thought that it was okay to quit on their group would get flamed and be considered a noob or ninja.

I played in Classic. I played in BC. I did this in Classic. I did this in BC. I never had a bad rep, either. Most people really liked running with me - due to how fast I tend to play.

You're just..wrong.

Let me open up with I don't take gear from people if they legitimately need it. If I see a healer with a 380 weapon, I'm not snagging the 463 away. I'm perfectly in my right to do so, but I honestly don't plan to heal much. I'd much rather a dps steal tanking items than try to tank with ilvl 435. Same with healers.

Now, with that out of the way, If I have to quit, you don't know the reason. I might be sick, I might have an irl emergency, Maybe it's raid time. Punishing people for that is kind of an asshole thing. If you really want to know - talk to them after they leave, Most of the time that I've seen(from people on my server) It's something work related. Occasionally they just didn't want to finish it - and that's fine to.

I just feel more and more people as of late are forgetting this is a game. It's intended to have fun. Yes, losing a piece of gear sucks - but it's still getting used 99% of the time. It's very VERY rare that someone steals an item just to DE it. Now, those are the people I have a problem with.

[Deleted]

I think solution 1 is bull crap. What if i had an emergency and had to leave a group after a boss fight? What if i was running a dungeon and lost track of time and had to go but wanted to get 1 more boss fight in? Why am i being penalized?

I'm pretty sure that if an emergency arises, a lost dungeon item in World of Warcraft isn't what you should be concerned about. Also, real emergencies occur very seldom.

If you did simply lose track of time, then perhaps you shouldn't have joined a dungeon run in the first place? Perhaps Blizzard should state the average time it takes to run each dungeon in its information, so people have it in consideration. Being fully aware that you have 20 minutes to play and still joining the dungeon is simply rude and shouldn't be something Blizzard takes into consideration.

[StationaryHawk]

Giving people a 10% chance to receive a random item at the end of a dungeon will just create more whining about RNG. And there is already a 30min penalty for leaving a dungeon that, if you're grinding dungeons, can be long enough in my opinion.

Otherwise, just go back into queue. If you lose a DPS, it only takes all of five seconds to find a new one.

You're just..wrong.

I'm afraid that personal experience is not enough to prove that he's incorrect, nor are his personal experiences enough to prove his point to be valid. They're both just opinions.