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  1. #81
    Legendary! Holo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimord View Post
    For someone with so much "PvP experience" you really don't know how expertise and dodge work, do you? I guess you need some "PvE Hero" to give you a couple lessons.
    You can't really be that ignorant, can you?

    Please teach me, i would love to see that.

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  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Holo View Post
    That simply never happens. You know what kind of damage certain classes are capable of and act accordingly. Losing to damage crits takes a hell of alot of luck to happen (like 1 in 100000 chance) since it would require that many crits in a row with the low crit rating we have atm. However, parries or dodges on absolutely critical control moves happens so ridiculously often that i have to deal with it EVERY. SINGLE. GAME.
    The second you land a critical hit, you've already influenced the outcome of the fight. Statistically, you can count on an average as being part of the "damage potential" of a class; but that's not the way probability works. Maybe you get lucky and someone dies before they know it, maybe someone doesn't die because you didn't crit with anything, and he did. Or that healer landed a crit heal and he went to 100%.

    Stop looking at things solely from the perspective that suits you. This is not about RNG. This is not about dodge. If anything, this is about KS being on the hit table - so why not vouch for that?

  3. #83
    Legendary! Holo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zardi View Post
    The second you land a critical hit, you've already influenced the outcome of the fight. Statistically, you can count on an average as being part of the "damage potential" of a class; but that's not the way probability works. Maybe you get lucky and someone dies before they know it, maybe someone doesn't die because you didn't crit with anything, and he did. Or that healer landed a crit heal and he went to 100%.

    Stop looking at things solely from the perspective that suits you. This is not about RNG. This is not about dodge. If anything, this is about KS being on the hit table - so why not vouch for that?
    A single random crit does not affect the outcome of a match unless the damage is massively OP. Your point is null.

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  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Holo View Post
    A single random crit does not affect the outcome of a match unless the damage is massively OP. Your point is null.
    Because an increase in the damage of the healing thrown into a fight doesn't have any influence who wins and who loses. Right. Who would have told, eh!
    It doesn't even have to be a large crit, a crit streak, or a killing blow to be meaningful to the fight. If you focus a target, every single bit counts; and the tighter the fight, the larger the impact. This is a fact, not an opinion.

    Sure, the damage/healing added from crits could even out in the long run, and they'd become merely anecdotal (but not irrelevant). But you won't find such large samples in any PvP fight, ever.

    Anyway, just as a follow to your alleged point - that a crit only matters if the ability is insanely OP... Surprise, surprise, it is exactly the same problem you're facing with parry and Kidney Shot. A powerful ability, a gamechanger, not yielding the expected results because of RNG. You wouldn't care in the slightest about parry and dodge if we were talking about white hits, would you? So what is the problem then, RNG o Kidney Shot?
    Last edited by Zardi; 2012-10-14 at 02:31 PM.

  5. #85
    I loved eating a parry/dodge with my crusader strike during cata... Crippled the Holy Power generation by a huge amount.

    It still is a goddamn pain in the ass, but at least there is judgment and possibly an exo, so resource generation is not at zero. Anyhoo, having things on a rng mechanic that are essential to your tactic, survivability and anticipation just sucks. For any class. It's a bad PvP design.

    But that ain't new.

  6. #86
    Legendary! Holo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zardi View Post
    Because an increase in the damage of the healing thrown into a fight doesn't have any influence who wins and who loses. Right. Who would have told, eh!
    It doesn't even have to be a large crit, a crit streak, or a killing blow to be meaningful to the fight. If you focus a target, every single bit counts; and the tighter the fight, the larger the impact. This is a fact, not an opinion.

    Sure, the damage/healing added from crits could even out in the long run, and they'd become merely anecdotal (but not irrelevant). But you won't find such large samples in any PvP fight, ever.

    Anyway, just as a follow to your alleged point - that a crit only matters if the ability is insanely OP... Surprise, surprise, it is exactly the same problem you're facing with parry and Kidney Shot. A powerful ability, a gamechanger, not yielding the expected results because of RNG. You wouldn't care in the slightest about parry and dodge if we were talking about white hits, would you? So what is the problem then, RNG o Kidney Shot?
    Kidney Shot. Gouge. Shiv. Dismantle. Basically any ability that can decide a match in a heartbeat but can still be RNG'd.

    A lucky damage crit cannot decide a match in a heartbeat no matter how loud you shout that it can.

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  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimord View Post
    For someone with so much "PvP experience" you really don't know how expertise and dodge work, do you? I guess you need some "PvE Hero" to give you a couple lessons.
    i don't know where you get your delusion that you only need 3% hit/exp to be "capped" in pvp. It's not only you though, there must be some kind of high profile website or blog spouting this bull for so many people to believe this.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by billtimbob View Post
    I don't understand why if you play a caster class in PvP, you never have to worry about your spells missing (spell pen cap is easy to get), but an entire game can shift based on whether or not a kidney shot is dodged. Isn't this mechanic outdated by now?
    because blizzard thinks RNG = skill

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimord View Post
    For someone with so much "PvP experience" you really don't know how expertise and dodge work, do you? I guess you need some "PvE Hero" to give you a couple lessons.
    Really, enlighten us. And after you've done, reforge away that extra hit you have.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-14 at 05:48 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    i don't know where you get your delusion that you only need 3% hit/exp to be "capped" in pvp. It's not only you though, there must be some kind of high profile website or blog spouting this bull for so many people to believe this.
    Vanguards recommends 3% hit and 3% expertise, so I guess it comes from there. I think that most classes have ~3% or less dodge and parry (besides when they can increase it), so that "cap" would mean you'll get over a mage dodging your specials.
    Shadow Walk : Significantly increases Stealth effectiveness for 6 sec, but causes Stealth to be nerfed to justify its usage. In addition, it uses old Enveloping Shadows icon and has no sound, animation or spell effect to show that the skill is actually doing something.

  10. #90
    you get over 3% in both just from wearing pvp gear i think even reforging everything away.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    you get over 3% in both just from wearing pvp gear i think even reforging everything away.
    It depends on the items you get, since some have different values. I have 4% expertise now and 3% parry. I think I'll float my expertise around 4% just to be sure that I don't get my KS dodged by a troll mage or something.
    Shadow Walk : Significantly increases Stealth effectiveness for 6 sec, but causes Stealth to be nerfed to justify its usage. In addition, it uses old Enveloping Shadows icon and has no sound, animation or spell effect to show that the skill is actually doing something.

  12. #92
    Legendary! Holo's Avatar
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    3% is softcap. That means casters and the like won't dodge or parry you. But they are not the problem here.



    That, is a problem. And not only with Rogues. Warriors, Paladin's DK's and any other melee have the same thing.
    More than 3% of each (Also night elves have 5% dodge by default).

    Honestly, i thought this was all common sense.

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  13. #93
    Herald of the Titans Grimord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    i don't know where you get your delusion that you only need 3% hit/exp to be "capped" in pvp. It's not only you though, there must be some kind of high profile website or blog spouting this bull for so many people to believe this.
    I never even used the 3% figure anywhere... At all...

    Yet, what you all seem to be unaware of is: Diminishing returns and the fact hit is not the same as expertise. Plus, everyone has a 5% baseline chance to be missed. Also, ability mechanics tend to be on a different roll from white hits, but that depends on the class, plus I haven't done actual PvP for a couple expansion packs, now but hey, it's always nice to see pseudo-elitists get mad at you for no reason.


  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Synche View Post
    Parry is pretty much the only avoidance plate wearers have, our dodge is at like 3%, if that. Also the Str > Parry conversion didn't scale too well at 90 compared to how it was at 85. At 5.04 at 85 we were sitting at 30-35% parry depending on gear level, now in full dreadful set I sit at ~13% parry, which can still help with good RNG but it isn't anything special compared to the dodge that agility wearers get.
    and now put on your first blue honor set at 85.. its normal you have more % of a stat then you have on a nearly fresh 90 toon. wait till we are at the of 90. then it wil be higher.

  15. #95
    In a purely stat based game (where you input commands, rather than directly control your character), no. They are the statistical representation of the fact that your character would obviously try to avoid any incoming attack.

    In an action game where you move around, yes. It is nonsensical that I can move to the side, but that my character's movement has nothing to do with whether or not my opponents attack hits or misses, but is instead determined by numbers on a character sheet, particularly when there are attacks in the game that are manually dodged (see: raids). Of course, WoW is hardly the only MMO that does this, but yes, it is in my opinion an outdated mechanic with this style of game. (Either I can directly control my character or I can't; if I can, let me actually dodge/parry incoming attacks. If I can't, stats and RNG are fine.)

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimord View Post
    I never even used the 3% figure anywhere... At all...

    Yet, what you all seem to be unaware of is: Diminishing returns and the fact hit is not the same as expertise. Plus, everyone has a 5% baseline chance to be missed. Also, ability mechanics tend to be on a different roll from white hits, but that depends on the class, plus I haven't done actual PvP for a couple expansion packs, now but hey, it's always nice to see pseudo-elitists get mad at you for no reason.
    lol, ok. Now I know you really have no idea what current mechanics are and know not to take you seriously.

  17. #97
    Legendary! Holo's Avatar
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    Players have baseline:

    3% miss across the board.

    Casters: 3% dodge 3% parry - Nelves 5% dodge.
    Melee: 3% of one stat, 14%+ of the other.

    Meaning that if you don't want your critical abilties to be dodged or parried against melee, you need as much expertise as your opponent has dodge or parry. Meaning definitely more than 14%.

    I don't really understand why it is that hard to comprehend.

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  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Zardi View Post
    Not a double-standard at all. So, how exactly is winning because of a lucky crit streak any diferent to losing because of an unlucky parry/miss? It's the same thing! And if it doesn't look like it, just have a look at the situation from the other player's perspective.

    If we're to consider RNG a bad thing, it is so in all of its incarnations, which would also include procs from weapons and trinkets. Heck, going further, if we want PvP to be solely about "skill", why not remove gear while at it?
    Read what Holo said earlier. Critical damage is very VERY rarely gamebreaking (see: literally never in competitive pvp). RNG avoidance is in no way shape or form fun, interesting OR BALANCABLE for PvP. CC brings predictability to the game. Burst gives it slightly more dyanism to play around. Throwing RNG avoidance that only effects half the classes (or players) into the mix is utter stupidity.
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  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimord View Post
    I never even used the 3% figure anywhere... At all...

    Yet, what you all seem to be unaware of is: Diminishing returns and the fact hit is not the same as expertise. Plus, everyone has a 5% baseline chance to be missed. Also, ability mechanics tend to be on a different roll from white hits, but that depends on the class, plus I haven't done actual PvP for a couple expansion packs, now but hey, it's always nice to see pseudo-elitists get mad at you for no reason.
    You're clueless.
    Shadow Walk : Significantly increases Stealth effectiveness for 6 sec, but causes Stealth to be nerfed to justify its usage. In addition, it uses old Enveloping Shadows icon and has no sound, animation or spell effect to show that the skill is actually doing something.

  20. #100
    Dreadlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holo View Post
    So asking for a fair game is taking it too seriously now?
    Dude, why are you even in this thread?[COLOR="red"]
    askin for a fair game? nice, then only force mirror comps in arenas 24/7, grz

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