Page 1 of 6
1
2
3
... LastLast
  1. #1

    Why is dodge and parry still in the game?

    I don't understand why if you play a caster class in PvP, you never have to worry about your spells missing (spell pen cap is easy to get), but an entire game can shift based on whether or not a kidney shot is dodged. Isn't this mechanic outdated by now?

  2. #2
    What spell pen cap?
    They removed spell pen and dodge & parry are DEFENSIVE Stats and those are RNG (specially because you CANT parry/dodge when someone is behind you).

  3. #3
    Legendary! Treelife's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    England
    Posts
    6,789
    No, why would it be outdated? Would you not try to dodge or parry someone running at you with a giant sword?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Darleth View Post
    and those are RNG

    Exactly why it is bad. And everyone knows getting behind a player is a crapshoot because a decent player can turn around as fast as you can get behind them.

  5. #5
    Mechagnome Eled.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Paris
    Posts
    594
    Quote Originally Posted by billtimbob View Post
    Exactly why it is bad. And everyone knows getting behind a player is a crapshoot because a decent player can turn around as fast as you can get behind them.
    What does the decent player do if there's two of them ?

  6. #6
    Stood in the Fire Knails's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Chicago, Illinois
    Posts
    449
    Quote Originally Posted by billtimbob View Post
    Exactly why it is bad. And everyone knows getting behind a player is a crapshoot because a decent player can turn around as fast as you can get behind them.
    This may come off as trolling, but it sounds like you're just bad. It's not an outdated mechanic it's a "real life" mechanic that if someone were to try to punch you in the face or kidneys you would attempt to DODGE or deflect it...meaning PARRY.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Darleth View Post
    What spell pen cap?
    They removed spell pen and dodge & parry are DEFENSIVE Stats and those are RNG (specially because you CANT parry/dodge when someone is behind you).
    The problem is that you can be behind someone (like, you are using backstab) and then have it still parried due to latency.
    Shadow Walk : Significantly increases Stealth effectiveness for 6 sec, but causes Stealth to be nerfed to justify its usage. In addition, it uses old Enveloping Shadows icon and has no sound, animation or spell effect to show that the skill is actually doing something.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Knails View Post
    It's not an outdated mechanic it's a "real life" mechanic that if someone were to try to punch you in the face or kidneys you would attempt to DODGE or deflect it...meaning PARRY.
    I would also try to dodge a fireball. So much for the 'real life' analogy.

  9. #9
    Stood in the Fire Knails's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Chicago, Illinois
    Posts
    449
    Quote Originally Posted by billtimbob View Post
    I would also try to dodge a fireball. So much for the 'real life' analogy.
    You just compared REAL LIFE to dodging a MAGIC FIRE BALL. Are you kidding me? You have to use some sort of imagination that when a Mage casts his spell he's channeling it to hit said person so it's "heat seeking" so to speak.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Sendai View Post
    The problem is that you can be behind someone (like, you are using backstab) and then have it still parried due to latency.
    Okay, but this isn't a problem of the game itself, its a connection problem with your Internet or the gameservers. This has nothing to do with an "outdated mechanic" or anything else.

    After all, saying that dodge and parry are "outdated mechanics", I find that Crit is also an outdated mechanic, I mean, its RNG!

  11. #11
    Bloodsail Admiral nerdjames's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    1,097
    Come on guys, RP isn't justification for a bad PvP mechanic. How about we start questioning why dragons drop armor that just happens to fit you? That said, I like avoidance to a degree. If regularly getting behind a player you can increase your damage, that's an element of skill. What needs to go is random CC avoidance. Even if it looks like you're behind your target, the server disagrees fairly often and you can still see avoided abilities. I'd be happy if just non-throughput abilities were just made to always land (barring active defenses). Mitigation is fine. Get out of jail free isn't.

  12. #12
    why is your kidney shot missing? are you not hit/expertise capped like any real pvp player should be? (I assume this makes it so you won't miss correct? not 100% sure as I mostly play healer pvp).

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by asb View Post
    Come on guys, RP isn't justification for a bad PvP mechanic. How about we start questioning why dragons drop armor that just happens to fit you? That said, I like avoidance to a degree. If regularly getting behind a player you can increase your damage, that's an element of skill. What needs to go is random CC avoidance. Even if it looks like you're behind your target, the server disagrees fairly often and you can still see avoided abilities. I'd be happy if just non-throughput abilities were just made to always land (barring active defenses). Mitigation is fine. Get out of jail free isn't.
    as I said: this is a problem with the game servers or your own internet. This has nothing to do with the mechanics of a secondary stat. I have a solid internet connection and I dont encounter problems like that very often. It sucks, I understand that, but you cant say "durr, that mechanic is bad, guy is parrying/dodging me though i'm standing behind him because my latency or the gameserver sucks".

  14. #14
    Besides all the better arguments for it, why not just accept that it's a different flavour of a different set of classes?

  15. #15
    Herald of the Titans Mehman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    The moon
    Posts
    2,542
    Quote Originally Posted by asb View Post
    Come on guys, RP isn't justification for a bad PvP mechanic. How about we start questioning why dragons drop armor that just happens to fit you?
    Or how a gnome can fit into the same piece of armor a tauren can

    Anyways, Dodge and parry are there to satisfy the PvE side of the game, nothing more.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Chireru93 View Post
    why is your kidney shot missing? are you not hit/expertise capped like any real pvp player should be? (I assume this makes it so you won't miss correct? not 100% sure as I mostly play healer pvp).
    Getting enough expertise to negate parries would probably be a life-long mission.

    Either way, I agree that it is kind of "outdated", yeah. At least the amount of dodge ferals/rogues (and even hunters to a certain extent) have is for sure, pretty fucked up.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Sendai View Post
    The problem is that you can be behind someone (like, you are using backstab) and then have it still parried due to latency.
    Really? Can you post a screenshot or something of that? Never heard of it before, and for ferals that can't happend atleast (shred will never be parried).
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainArlong View Post
    When you play a video game, you don't put any "effort" into it at all. You're pushing keys on a keyboard, you're not running a marathon or playing a sport.

  18. #18
    Bloodsail Admiral nerdjames's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    1,097
    Quote Originally Posted by Darleth View Post
    as I said: this is a problem with the game servers or your own internet. This has nothing to do with the mechanics of a secondary stat. I have a solid internet connection and I dont encounter problems like that very often. It sucks, I understand that, but you cant say "durr, that mechanic is bad, guy is parrying/dodging me though i'm standing behind him because my latency or the gameserver sucks".
    I understand that and made mention of it. Regardless, balance shouldn't be based around theoretical results; they consider observable happenings. When I see a rogue shadowstep just to be sure his kidney shot lands and it still gets dodged, I can't help but think there's something wrong. I guess everyone should just move to New York to play on an in-town data center?

    I guess it's not as bad since everyone will be stacking PvP Power over a primary stat, but I'd rather just see it gone. Random saves against important CC just aren't part of an ideal game design.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Darleth View Post
    Okay, but this isn't a problem of the game itself, its a connection problem with your Internet or the gameservers. This has nothing to do with an "outdated mechanic" or anything else.

    After all, saying that dodge and parry are "outdated mechanics", I find that Crit is also an outdated mechanic, I mean, its RNG!
    50ms. That's a quite good ping.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelodalix View Post
    Getting enough expertise to negate parries would probably be a life-long mission.

    Either way, I agree that it is kind of "outdated", yeah. At least the amount of dodge ferals/rogues (and even hunters to a certain extent) have is for sure, pretty fucked up.
    Plus parry from plate wearers...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zheryn View Post
    Really? Can you post a screenshot or something of that? Never heard of it before, and for ferals that can't happend atleast (shred will never be parried).
    I have had my Kidney Shot just after a Backstab parried plenty of times. That's why I love Shadowstep because it guarantees the landing.
    EDIT : I just re-read my post and I was talking about Kidney Shot, but I didn't mention it for whatever reason.
    Shadow Walk : Significantly increases Stealth effectiveness for 6 sec, but causes Stealth to be nerfed to justify its usage. In addition, it uses old Enveloping Shadows icon and has no sound, animation or spell effect to show that the skill is actually doing something.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Sendai View Post
    50ms. That's a quite good ping.

    Plus parry from plate wearers...
    Parry is pretty much the only avoidance plate wearers have, our dodge is at like 3%, if that. Also the Str > Parry conversion didn't scale too well at 90 compared to how it was at 85. At 5.04 at 85 we were sitting at 30-35% parry depending on gear level, now in full dreadful set I sit at ~13% parry, which can still help with good RNG but it isn't anything special compared to the dodge that agility wearers get.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •