Why is dodge and parry still in the game?

[fizzbob]

Okay, but this isn't a problem of the game itself, its a connection problem with your Internet or the gameservers. This has nothing to do with an "outdated mechanic" or anything else.

After all, saying that dodge and parry are "outdated mechanics", I find that Crit is also an outdated mechanic, I mean, its RNG!

if the person you're attacking has high latency, YOU can't hit them. it's why people spam the lag macro in arena and have for YEARS. it makes you invulnerable

[blackblade]

Parry is pretty much the only avoidance plate wearers have, our dodge is at like 3%, if that. Also the Str > Parry conversion didn't scale too well at 90 compared to how it was at 85. At 5.04 at 85 we were sitting at 30-35% parry depending on gear level, now in full dreadful set I sit at ~13% parry, which can still help with good RNG but it isn't anything special compared to the dodge that agility wearers get.

You also likely aren't stacking str via gems like we did in WLK/Cata with the way secondary stats work with gems and all. (Though i'm not sure if PVPer actually gemmed for resil or not either.)

[billtimbob]

You just compared REAL LIFE to dodging a MAGIC FIRE BALL. Are you kidding me? You have to use some sort of imagination that when a Mage casts his spell he's channeling it to hit said person so it's "heat seeking" so to speak.

That's the point sherlock. You were the one that brought up 'real life' in a fantasy RPG.

[Deleted]

Parry is pretty much the only avoidance plate wearers have, our dodge is at like 3%, if that. Also the Str > Parry conversion didn't scale too well at 90 compared to how it was at 85. At 5.04 at 85 we were sitting at 30-35% parry depending on gear level, now in full dreadful set I sit at ~13% parry, which can still help with good RNG but it isn't anything special compared to the dodge that agility wearers get.

A subtlety (tons of extra agility) rogue with full PVP gear is looking at 15-16% dodge right now, so the difference is not that big.

[Norzuk]

I just wish I could have spell resistance again.

[Bsod]

i see the problem if non damage abilitys can get dodged/parried. meele-damage abilitys should always be able to be dodge/parried (if the enemy is in front of you) but maybe its time to make abilitys like kidney shot non dodge/parrie-able.

[Synche]

i see the problem if non damage abilitys can get dodged/parried. meele-damage abilitys should always be able to be dodge/parried (if the enemy is in front of you) but maybe its time to make abilitys like kidney shot non dodge/parrie-able.

I can assure you, the amount of times a CC ability is dodged or parried is vastly over-exaggerated. RNG is what makes PVP, it is what makes you have to adjust your play style and react to what is happening in a fight. If everything was guaranteed to hit, it would be extremely boring.

[Deleted]

Didn't mind until plate DPS got more parry than dodge of the agility DPS.

[kleinlax21]

Try to stand behind your target. Stupid, I know, but I've been really focusing on doing that when i face off against plate/agi classes and I find it helps. ESPECIALLY when warriors have their damn parry CD that idk what it's name is.

Lots of Spec's have 20% avoidance from dodge/parry/block. Do whatever you can do minimize it's impact, and enjoy 20% extra dps as a melee class

Also, I think CC should always hit if you are capped. IMO, those abilities shouldn't be subjected to RNG if and only if you are hit capped. Just my opinion of course, but my logic is that big abilities like those should do what they intend to do, especially if they are subject to long cooldown's.
Examples: if I miss an Oblit as a Frost DK, the worst that happens is I lose a Killing Machine proc. The runes are still up & not wasted, and I can launch another Oblit one second later. Rogues/Ferals don't lose the entire energy cost of a missed ability. Other melee classes, afaik, have similar resource management systems that come into play when an ability is dodged/parried/missed. I think that, given most melee classes ability to quickly recover from a dodged attack while using abilities standard in the rotation, CC should abide similar mechanics.

Maybe applying 10% of the cooldown if you miss on a CC ability instead of the normal 100% cooldown is a viable solution. Like I said earlier, its just an opinion. And I reserve the right to be wrong.

[Deleted]

You just compared REAL LIFE to dodging a MAGIC FIRE BALL. Are you kidding me? You have to use some sort of imagination that when a Mage casts his spell he's channeling it to hit said person so it's "heat seeking" so to speak.

And my sword is a magical sword that is controlled by my mind and seeks for blood.......
You are the one who started to compare ingame shit to real life shit so dont act like the other person is retarded when you are the one that is retarded.

Magic spells arent heat seeking so your whole theory is bullshit

[shise]

For that matter you could also remove all your class cd's and let them all be in one spell, so you only need to press one key...
Really why so many people want to remove so many things? We'd come to a point where it wouldn't be fun at all to play with your numbers.

[Feranor]

Either way, I agree that it is kind of "outdated", yeah. At least the amount of dodge ferals/rogues (and even hunters to a certain extent) have is for sure, pretty fucked up.

Fucked up as in "ridiculously low"?

Unless I missed something, Agility no longer increases Dodge (for Ferals at least). Which means we have 3.46% Dodge at 90.

Edit: It seems Agility still increased Dodge, but for much less than it did before. An entry level gear Feral would have about 10% dodge.

[Illana]

cuz pve

/thread

[kleinlax21]

cuz pve

/thread

This, pretty much. When they can remove dodge/parry from PvE, then expect PvP to get the same treatment. Until then, however..

[Deleted]

I can assure you, the amount of times a CC ability is dodged or parried is vastly over-exaggerated. RNG is what makes PVP, it is what makes you have to adjust your play style and react to what is happening in a fight. If everything was guaranteed to hit, it would be extremely boring.

I strongly disagree with your post and what makes PVP. First of all, the amount of times CC doesn't land is not vastly over-exaggerated. I don't dare to use Kidney Shot if it's not in a fleeing, stunned or disoriented target or unless I used ShS'ed due to this reason. Secondly, I could easily lose an entire match if my 20 seconds CD stun doesn't land when it had to. How does this exactly make PVP? If I land the stun and the other team react in a different way than expected, then yes, I have to adapt, but having to adapt just because I have a 16% chance of getting it parried or dodged does not make PVP.

There's always some luck factor, but games shouldn't depend on if I managed to land my CC or I had a % of dying. Do you know why CLOS was moved to 100%? Improved sap disappeared? Because RNG should be kept to a minimum. Give casters an almost impossible to out-gear 9-16% chance of missing their CC and see how it feels.

To make my point clear, I don't advocate removing dodge or parry, but some CC should not be dodgeable/parriable.

[Verain]

why is your kidney shot missing? are you not hit/expertise capped like any real pvp player should be? (I assume this makes it so you won't miss correct? not 100% sure as I mostly play healer pvp).

You cannot expertise cap in pvp. Players have dodge and parry in excess of what a mob would have.


The real issue here is why kidney is on the melee hit table at all. No one things is a problem that you can't dodge and parry shockwave, hammer of justice, deep freeze, leg sweep (which is unarguably a melee move and should be on the hit table, but "designed last" sez, no way!), that stupid hundred hand punch (um, also a melee attack), and others. I'm not sure about, say, Storm Bolt, but mostly the dodgeable ones are maim, kidneyshot, and the pet stuns (and pets have it easy for obvious reasons).

---------- Post added 2012-10-12 at 03:45 PM ----------

This, pretty much. When they can remove dodge/parry from PvE, then expect PvP to get the same treatment. Until then, however..

Incorrect. Dodge and parry aren't an issue in pve. With the correct amount of expertise and positioning, I never have to look at a dodged or parried attack. Now, often it's not even optimal to expertise cap in pve. If my envenom is dodged, I simply can try again, and I get more dps from that secondary stat being in mastery. But kidney is stupidly clutch, and this is a very uncommon issue to have in pvp- mostly kidney and the mirror move. There used to be more things on this table, and of course it's much easier to get behind a target when you have a move speed advantage over them. Cats still HAVE their move speed advantage, but rogues lost theirs.

[Mihalik]

cuz pve

/thread

Actually Dodge and Parry both see more effective use in PvP then they ever do in PvE.

In PvE they only exist for two things. One is to force you to stack certain statistics to improve your dps on target (Thus lowering the Value of your ONE stat, may it be Agi or Str, without the evade caps everyone would just stack one stat and thats it.) And second to increase the effective health of tanks via mechanics beyond Stamina. If tank would only stack Stamina healing and tanking would be the most boring shit in the history of boring shits.

Now in PvP evades do much more and fill in the randomness factor. Without chance evades WoW pvp would look like Tekken. Which is not necesarilly bad, but thats Tekken and not WoW. For every time you lose a fight due to RNG you also win one due to RNG. Further more it adds an extra layer to the skill cap of PvP.

-Okey here comes IWIN button....Shit...IWIN button failed....adapt or lose. Good players learn to play around it. Bad ones QQ. Even tought it is true sometimes you just lose due to RNG.

[Phoenexis]

Fucked up as in "ridiculously low"?

Unless I missed something, Agility no longer increases Dodge (for Ferals at least). Which means we have 3.46% Dodge at 90.

Edit: It seems Agility still increased Dodge, but for much less than it did before. An entry level gear Feral would have about 10% dodge.

10% is quite a lot. I don't play melee but I'm sure I'd go berserk if my CC abilities or main nukes would fail to land. It really isn't fair when you don't win a match because that final CC ability got countered. Same thing goes for crit. Many games are won because of lucky crit streaks that give a team the upper hand in situations in which they're supposed to be at a disadvantage.

This isn't a QQ against Ferals which you obviously love, it's QQ against the whole system that's retarded. So unless you're to lose something if all forms of random evasion, you should be happy. Why would you be against such a change?
And why would people promote RNG because it "feels real" while other aspects of the game are much less realistic and more apparent?

[Synche]

I strongly disagree with your post and what makes PVP. First of all, the amount of times CC doesn't land is not vastly over-exaggerated. I don't dare to use Kidney Shot if it's not in a fleeing, stunned or disoriented target or unless I used ShS'ed due to this reason. Secondly, I could easily lose an entire match if my 20 seconds CD stun doesn't land when it had to. How does this exactly make PVP? If I land the stun and the other team react in a different way than expected, then yes, I have to adapt, but having to adapt just because I have a 16% chance of getting it parried or dodged does not make PVP.

There's always some luck factor, but games shouldn't depend on if I managed to land my CC or I had a % of dying. Do you know why CLOS was moved to 100%? Improved sap disappeared? Because RNG should be kept to a minimum. Give casters an almost impossible to out-gear 9-16% chance of missing their CC and see how it feels.

To make my point clear, I don't advocate removing dodge or parry, but some CC should not be dodgeable/parriable.

How can you disagree when you prove my point in your statement ? PVP is all about reacting to the situation at hand. I have had executed parried / dodged at clutch times and have ended up being killed directly after due to it, or I have parried one and thus saved my own life.

I bet you would want PVP trinkets taken out as well since someone could clear your stun as well right ?

Casters need CC effects otherwise they would be fodder for melee even more so, melee on the other hand is much different.

[Deleted]

How can you disagree when you prove my point in your statement ? PVP is all about reacting to the situation at hand. I have had executed parried / dodged at clutch times and have ended up being killed directly after due to it, or I have parried one and thus saved my own life.

I bet you would want PVP trinkets taken out as well since someone could clear your stun as well right ?

Casters need CC effects otherwise they would be fodder for melee even more so, melee on the other hand is much different.

Nice straw man argument, Synche. I disagreed with PVP being about RNG, not about PVP being all about reacting to the situation at hand. Second straw man argument : Your comment about PVP trinkets. I won't even bother with that.

Fine. Why exactly is most of the warriors, paladins and death knights CC undodgeable/unparriable?