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  1. #241
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nakaya_Kilrogg View Post
    Whoa now. I'm part of the classic raider market...*snip*

    No matter how much content Trion releases, if the game as a whole doesn't appeal to a person, then it's a moot point.
    But see here's the thing, I wasn't referring to anyone still subscribing. For someone who just loves the game so much they will play it no matter what isn't referenced in the equation.

    I'm talking about people who have already left, possibly picked WoW and Rift back up, but would have gone back to SWTOR provided ample options to *insert activity here* (PvE, PvP, etc) Providing no way for them to play at the highest level of the game is a very strong handed and frankly, stupid tactic.

    Those people would rather pay $15 to receive the amount of content they do from other games.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    But see here's the thing, I wasn't referring to anyone still subscribing. For someone who just loves the game so much they will play it no matter what isn't referenced in the equation.

    I'm talking about people who have already left, possibly picked WoW and Rift back up, but would have gone back to SWTOR provided ample options to *insert activity here* (PvE, PvP, etc) Providing no way for them to play at the highest level of the game is a very strong handed and frankly, stupid tactic.

    Those people would rather pay $15 to receive the amount of content they do from other games.
    I'm still on the look out for the perfect MMO. I don't just love SWTOR so much that I'll play it no matter what. I'll play it until something else comes along in which I'm not doing laps around Org, Sanctum, or the Fleet. Unlike people who blindly refuse to see the shortcomings of the game, I do. I just don't have a viable alternative out there to play. Until SWTOR adds a few things to make it better, I'm playing it with the idea to move on when "a better game" (as in better for me) comes out. Rift, WoW, and GW2 don't have what I want, but I'm still very much a raider wanting to raid shit and a PvPer wanting to kill people on the other team. Rift has always felt clunky, and WoW just feels old. With SWTOR, I still have interest in un-experienced class stories (what drew me to this and every other BioWare game). I think, if it weren't for that, I might not even play an MMO.

    Sad, the state of MMOs these days.
    Formerly known here as Nakaya_Kilrogg.
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  3. #243
    Epic! lokithor's Avatar
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    And here I was thinking about coming back when it became F2P. After reading this thread though there's no way in hell.

  4. #244
    Bloodsail Admiral Jamos77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lokithor View Post
    And here I was thinking about coming back when it became F2P. After reading this thread though there's no way in hell.
    Your loss I guess. Seeing as it will be free to login you don't lose anything by trying it out. If instead you let the opinions of 5-6 strangers put you off a game, good luck with your next one (seeing as 95% of this thread is written by 5-6 people it's heavily influenced by a very small amount of viewpoints).
    SWG - Jamus Divinus - Bria 2005-2011

    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    There is plenty to criticize with the game and BioWares handling of it without resorting to exaggeration, so let's not do it : /

  5. #245
    Epic! lokithor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamos77 View Post
    Your loss I guess. Seeing as it will be free to login you don't lose anything by trying it out. If instead you let the opinions of 5-6 strangers put you off a game, good luck with your next one (seeing as 95% of this thread is written by 5-6 people it's heavily influenced by a very small amount of viewpoints).
    It's not just opinions. You can't do jack shit without shelling out cash, and I'll be damned if I pay them any more money to unlock shit I've already paid for.

  6. #246
    A game with insane hype, a great release, only to crash and burn to where it became a ghost town not even 6 months later. Now F2P has so many limitations you can't even do anything. Easily the biggest flop in MMO history and sadly they could have recovered if they did this F2P right. Ouch.

  7. #247
    Bloodsail Admiral Jamos77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sTyLnK View Post
    A game with insane hype, a great release, only to crash and burn to where it became a ghost town not even 6 months later. Now F2P has so many limitations you can't even do anything. Easily the biggest flop in MMO history and sadly they could have recovered if they did this F2P right. Ouch.
    Wouldn't call 250k-500k subs a flop. As of right now with the data available online TOR has the 2nd highest paid sub level in MMO gaming. Wouldn't call it the biggest flop seeing as my server is full 24/7 these days and the vibe ingame is actually quite positive. Depends on expectations I guess.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-04 at 08:58 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by lokithor View Post
    It's not just opinions. You can't do jack shit without shelling out cash, and I'll be damned if I pay them any more money to unlock shit I've already paid for.
    I see your point. In your position I wouldn't have a problem paying to unlock stuff i'd already paid for if it meant I didn't have to pay a sub. I guess there's a limit for each person on how much is too much. The principal though is the same imo. I pay every month to use stuff i've already paid for (I pay a sub). It's just different terminology. The F2P could be better I'm sure. I'm just not an expert in the field and so can't wax lyrical about things I dont actually know about.

    The reason I was previously warning you against taking people's opinions here too seriously is that noone on this forum is a F2P expert. None of us have the data BW used to make the decisions they did. We weren't invited to any meetings and despite some of the people's tone, none of us here have any clue about the statistics involved in making a F2P model. All you get are a whole crapload of 'educated guesses'. Just wanted to make sure you were put off by facts not by people's opinions of them.
    Last edited by Jamos77; 2012-11-04 at 08:06 AM.
    SWG - Jamus Divinus - Bria 2005-2011

    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    There is plenty to criticize with the game and BioWares handling of it without resorting to exaggeration, so let's not do it : /

  8. #248
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nakaya_Kilrogg View Post
    I'm still on the look out for the perfect MMO. I don't just love SWTOR so much that I'll play it no matter what. I'll play it until something else comes along in which I'm not doing laps around Org, Sanctum, or the Fleet. Unlike people who blindly refuse to see the shortcomings of the game, I do. I just don't have a viable alternative out there to play. Until SWTOR adds a few things to make it better, I'm playing it with the idea to move on when "a better game" (as in better for me) comes out. Rift, WoW, and GW2 don't have what I want, but I'm still very much a raider wanting to raid shit and a PvPer wanting to kill people on the other team. Rift has always felt clunky, and WoW just feels old. With SWTOR, I still have interest in un-experienced class stories (what drew me to this and every other BioWare game). I think, if it weren't for that, I might not even play an MMO.

    Sad, the state of MMOs these days.
    I feel you. I just think a lot of people like the raiding scene. The numbers shown from WoW and Rift seem to say it's a large portion of the community. SWTOR isn't even trying to capture those people or else they would provide the ability to play at the highest level. I was dead set to quit WoW myself, until SWTOR started rubbing me wrong in multiple ways and then bang the Cartel Coin thing, now this. It's one of the reasons why I am so vehement about my distaste for it all...I feel like they literally pulled a 'gotcha' on me, because I wanted this to be my MMO.

    I have since returned to the one I've played for many years, quit doing things I hated about it, and now I enjoy it more than I have in years. I wouldn't have even considered that as an option if SWTOR had stayed true (for me). And likewise, I agree that the market is in a sad state...but unlike you I have been leaning heavily to just walking away from all of them and I am not looking for the next great one at all. I doubt that will ever be possible though, lol.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    I feel you. I just think a lot of people like the raiding scene. The numbers shown from WoW and Rift seem to say it's a large portion of the community. SWTOR isn't even trying to capture those people or else they would provide the ability to play at the highest level. I was dead set to quit WoW myself, until SWTOR started rubbing me wrong in multiple ways and then bang the Cartel Coin thing, now this. It's one of the reasons why I am so vehement about my distaste for it all...I feel like they literally pulled a 'gotcha' on me, because I wanted this to be my MMO.
    Actually, before LFR, the numbers for WoW expressed the opposite. The easiest way to seize a large portion of the audience is to make your shit casual friendly. And by casual friendly, I mean giving people more than just 3 options for your endgame activity.

  10. #250
    If only we could get an MMO with WoW's familiarity in movements and combat fluidity, Tera's combat system, SWTOR's story quests, Rift's development pace and variety in end game activities, raiding mechanics from all the games combined and as a cherry on top set in EvE's universe with their sandbox space game.

    One can dream...

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-04 at 02:43 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by notorious98 View Post
    Actually, before LFR, the numbers for WoW expressed the opposite. The easiest way to seize a large portion of the audience is to make your shit casual friendly. And by casual friendly, I mean giving people more than just 3 options for your endgame activity.
    Problem with LFR is that it pigeonholes player in to raiding that probably didn't want to raid in the first place, it was the cheap solution for Blizzard instead of making more types of end-game content, for comparison Rift approaches that much better as far as I see it with multiple types of content at end-game.
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  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    Problem with LFR is that it pigeonholes player in to raiding that probably didn't want to raid in the first place, it was the cheap solution for Blizzard instead of making more types of end-game content, for comparison Rift approaches that much better as far as I see it with multiple types of content at end-game.
    Agreed. Anytime you can diversify your game you should. In the short run people might complain "zomg why u focus on something other than what I want?" but you will gain/keep all the people who want more than just one or two types of end game.

    Which is why space should have been a form of end game.

    But oh well.
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  12. #252
    Bloodsail Admiral Jamos77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    If only we could get an MMO with WoW's familiarity in movements and combat fluidity, Tera's combat system, SWTOR's story quests, Rift's development pace and variety in end game activities, raiding mechanics from all the games combined and as a cherry on top set in EvE's universe with their sandbox space game.

    One can dream...
    It will never happen. Don't laugh but you don't want to know how many of my friends (me included) who thought TOR would encompasse all that back in 2008. In the end...we got the story part right, yay

    If 200mil (or whatever TOR's cost 'is' these days) and 5yrs don't make the perfect MMO then I dispair at ever seeing your suggested combination. Noone will invest so much again into an MMO. Money is more wisely invested in smaller projects with higher chances of success. Dumbing things down is the future. Accessible. Easy. Casual. Those are the words that are 'greenlighting' projects nowadays. What you suggest is anathema to a bean counter at EA/Activision/SOE et al.

    My bleak outlook is based on too many of the games I love being dumbed down with each iteration. Don't mind me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    There is plenty to criticize with the game and BioWares handling of it without resorting to exaggeration, so let's not do it : /

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamos77 View Post
    It will never happen. Don't laugh but you don't want to know how many of my friends (me included) who thought TOR would encompasse all that back in 2008. In the end...we got the story part right, yay .
    I think the closest we will come will be Eve/Dust. If they go on to keep adding more facets to their universe people will be pretty pumped.

    Now if they would just let me play dust on my pc...
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  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    I think the closest we will come will be Eve/Dust. If they go on to keep adding more facets to their universe people will be pretty pumped.

    Now if they would just let me play dust on my pc...
    True. It's not technologically possible atm to make a game engine that can do it all: ground fights, aerial fights, small battlefields, large battlefields, 1st person, 3rd person etc, etc, etc. The only game that tried this was the Battlecruiser: Millenium or how it was called and it was utter shit.

    You just CAN'T make such a game engine. If you want to even get near that goal is to make separate game engines/games and put them together in one package, while hoping there won't be compatibility issues between the different game engines OR just make 2 totally separate games, like Eve and Dust 514.

  15. #255
    Bloodsail Admiral Jamos77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    I think the closest we will come will be Eve/Dust. If they go on to keep adding more facets to their universe people will be pretty pumped.

    Now if they would just let me play dust on my pc...
    http://www.projectswg.com/ is what I'm waiting for.

    Post NGE mechanics. All 8yrs of content. JTL updated with 'Space Invasion' patch mechanics from 2011. Basically the game I was playing until 15th December 2011. Free. 12 of my friends and I just waiting...a few thousand in wait with us. One server, x thousand strong so will seem like a TOR server at primetime. Beast Mastery mechanics in place, mutation game including the last added mutant ever (mutant Acklay). Convoy system, atmospheric flight. Space PvP in my Tie Oppressor...oh joy. A pipe dream worth having imo.
    SWG - Jamus Divinus - Bria 2005-2011

    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    There is plenty to criticize with the game and BioWares handling of it without resorting to exaggeration, so let's not do it : /

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamos77 View Post
    It will never happen. Don't laugh but you don't want to know how many of my friends (me included) who thought TOR would encompasse all that back in 2008. In the end...we got the story part right, yay

    If 200mil (or whatever TOR's cost 'is' these days) and 5yrs don't make the perfect MMO then I dispair at ever seeing your suggested combination. Noone will invest so much again into an MMO. Money is more wisely invested in smaller projects with higher chances of success. Dumbing things down is the future. Accessible. Easy. Casual. Those are the words that are 'greenlighting' projects nowadays. What you suggest is anathema to a bean counter at EA/Activision/SOE et al.

    My bleak outlook is based on too many of the games I love being dumbed down with each iteration. Don't mind me.
    Thing is though, it's just a generic theme park MMORPG with elements from the current market (besides the EvE part but that's kinda the only way to get the sandbox space game in to the mix) basically what Blizzard did with Wow back in the day, sadly you are more than likely right though, new developed MMO's focus to much on emulating WoW with their one unique feature instead of taking all that's good on the market and building their game on that.
    Active PoE: @MajorAsshole EvE: Redblade (Reikoku)
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  17. #257
    Bloodsail Admiral Jamos77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    Thing is though, it's just a generic theme park MMORPG with elements from the current market (besides the EvE part but that's kinda the only way to get the sandbox space game in to the mix) basically what Blizzard did with Wow back in the day, sadly you are more than likely right though, new developed MMO's focus to much on emulating WoW with their one unique feature instead of taking all that's good on the market and building their game on that.
    Agree completely. I'm sure many a developer has brainstormed such a game. High quality PvE/PvP themepark experience with a truckload of story and sandbox as a foundation. Polish and content. Style and substance. Fred and Ginger. It's an MMO wet-dream, well mine involves Jawa's, orange peelers and mandalorian jelly, but I digress

    That was one of the reasons why I'm not putting too much stock into The Elder Scrolls MMO coming out later this decade.
    SWG - Jamus Divinus - Bria 2005-2011

    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    There is plenty to criticize with the game and BioWares handling of it without resorting to exaggeration, so let's not do it : /

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    Thing is though, it's just a generic theme park MMORPG with elements from the current market (besides the EvE part but that's kinda the only way to get the sandbox space game in to the mix) basically what Blizzard did with Wow back in the day, sadly you are more than likely right though, new developed MMO's focus to much on emulating WoW with their one unique feature instead of taking all that's good on the market and building their game on that.
    My question is, how in the world can a company.. any company.. get all of what people want into a launch MMO? Can you imagine the costs? The manpower and development time? SWTOR's 100 million would look like Chump Change.

    To list everything people seem to want:
    Story Content
    Solo Content
    Mini-Games
    PvP Battlegrounds/Warzones of varying size
    Ranked WZs
    Arenas
    GTN/AH
    In-depth Tradeskill System
    Raids, at least 12 bosses to start, at varying difficulties
    WoW-level character fluidity
    Rift-level content releases
    A Theme-Park aspect
    A sandbox aspect
    More End-game content that isn't raiding, isn't pvp, and isn't dailies
    Add-ons
    Group Content, quests and dungeons and the like
    LFR/LFD
    Cross-server ques or Megaservers, so there isn't a wait for anything
    Beautiful graphics
    World PvP
    NO lag/low FPS even in 100+ people world pvp

    This isn't even counting the "Hotkey MMO vs. Non-Hotkey MMO" and all of the other personal-preference-arguments of what's good and what isn't. These days, people seem to want, if not straight up, a variation of the list above. I'm sure I forgot some things, and I'm sure some of the things I listed some people might not want, but that's a good guideline, I'd say.

    What I want to ask, is how? How could any company both afford that, as well as deliver it within the next 5-8 years? By the time they could deliver, the entire fucking gaming community has changed and wants something different. SWTOR, for example, began in 2008. If they'd released in 09 with the game as it is now, I imagine things having gone a lot better for BW/EA. This was better than the model people wanted 4 years ago, but after all that time, we're sick of it and want new shit. It's the goddamn development time and money, along with parent companies all breathing down your neck. Still, without a big company, you can't afford to do what you want. Big companies are fucked, because they can't get it right and are too impatient. Indie devs are fucked, because they might have the vision, but they can't afford to bring it to life.

    Gamers are fucked, because they want too much. It's not a bad thing to want a lot of shit in a game, but they are unrealistic expectations.
    Formerly known here as Nakaya_Kilrogg.
    I don't play Nak anymore, I'm not on Kilrogg, and
    I haven't played WoW seriously since the end of LK.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by Nakaya_Kilrogg View Post
    Gamers are fucked, because they want too much. It's not a bad thing to want a lot of shit in a game, but they are unrealistic expectations.
    The thing is, I was content with swtor when it launched because I thought that their goal would be to expand on what they had created. That was what they said, that was what I believed. I would have been okay with half as much raiding content if they had just been working on adding DIFFERENT things. But that's the problem. Its not a matter of the game launching with EVERYTHING. Its a matter of the gaming trying to move TOWARD EVERYTHING. Not just 1 raid, 1 wz, 1 daily hub patches every 4 months. That's crappy. That's the warcraft formula. Me and many others are done with that. You could launch your game as that at first to get a population but if you aren't building outward, just upward, you are going to alienate your primary demographic. The people who are sick of the wow formula. That's the key here. People who are okay with the wow formula are, for the most part, still playing wow. That's not who you should be targeting as a new mmo.
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  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Nakaya_Kilrogg View Post
    *snip*
    Actually, WoW has nearly all of that entire list.

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