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  1. #621
    Quote Originally Posted by ControlBlue View Post
    Playing Operative, level 14.

    That second bar is getting quite some use alreadyl... and have 46 levels worth of abilities to learn yet...
    I'm subscribed for a month and my OP(Dinged 50 2 days ago.) would now need 5 bars if I put on everything on my bars. So stuff like sprint, quick travel, emergency fleet transport, relics and other useful clicky things are a no go.
    The Legacy abilities alone fill half a bar. Yes I'm aware that is stuff that I can only use every 15 minutes while solo at most but it is also stuff I NEED quick access to while solo in the very moment I want to use them. Those are usually last resort reserves to solo champions and the like.

  2. #622
    I can't believe there are people that will try to justify BioWare selling UI functionality.

    Well, I can, but I don't want to believe it.

  3. #623
    Quote Originally Posted by Cooper View Post
    I can't believe there are people that will try to justify BioWare selling UI functionality.

    Well, I can, but I don't want to believe it.
    It might be because many of us can/have bought action bars off the GTN already and are thus set.
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  4. #624
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    It might be because many of us can/have bought action bars off the GTN already and are thus set.
    That doesn't make it not reprehensible.

    Somebody somewhere still had spend real money on enabling the most basic functionality of the game for you to be able to buy it off the GTN.

  5. #625
    Quote Originally Posted by Cooper View Post
    That doesn't make it not reprehensible.

    Somebody somewhere still had spend real money on enabling the most basic functionality of the game for you to be able to buy it off the GTN.
    No. The stipend is free with sub.
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  6. #626
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cooper View Post
    That doesn't make it not reprehensible.

    Somebody somewhere still had spend real money on enabling the most basic functionality of the game for you to be able to buy it off the GTN.
    Actually your ideas are wrong on two points.

    1) Most people are using their stipend b/c they don't need to spend it on anything else and want the credits

    2) 4 action bars are now going to be standard for even F2P players so it's not even an issue. I could hate them forever if they left it at 1, or even 2, for being greedy assholes. Giving you 4 is more than enough. So really, the fact that they start off in a bad place is very scary...but clearly they listen to us common folk saying they need to stop being dickbags.

    Edit:
    Damnit HK, stop reading my mind on stuff.

  7. #627
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    Actually your ideas are wrong on two points.

    1) Most people are using their stipend b/c they don't need to spend it on anything else and want the credits
    The stipend is not "free" any more than the free toy with a Kid's Meal is free. Somebody still had to spend that money. Not to mention the opportunity cost of getting Quickbars instead of, say, Cartel Packs or whatever, or just hanging onto them for future releases. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

    2) 4 action bars are now going to be standard for even F2P players so it's not even an issue. I could hate them forever if they left it at 1, or even 2, for being greedy assholes. Giving you 4 is more than enough. So really, the fact that they start off in a bad place is very scary...but clearly they listen to us common folk saying they need to stop being dickbags.
    As for as I know it's four for Preferred. F2P players are still stuck with two.

    And they didn't "listen to us common folk", they listened to their bottom line. If the numbers had shown that sticking with the previous set-up had been a net gain, BioWare would've stuck with it. Instead, the quickbar issue was causing a net loss; people were quitting instead of buying the extra bars, and the new system was getting a lot of bad press. So that's a win for rational people, for now, but the problem is that some people obviously believe selling the UI was copasetic. As long as those people exist, companies will keep pushing the boundaries of what is acceptable to withhold and sell.
    Last edited by Cooper; 2012-12-06 at 03:57 AM.

  8. #628
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cooper View Post
    The stipend is not "free" any more than the free toy with a Kid's Meal is free. Somebody still had to spend that money. Not to mention the opportunity cost of getting Quickbars instead of, say, Cartel Packs or whatever, or just hanging onto them for future releases. There is no such thing as a free lunch.
    Semantics will be semantics. It's an extra on top of what was already being received for the same value. It does nothing to argue your point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cooper View Post
    And they didn't "listen to us common folk", they listened to their bottom line. If the numbers had shown that sticking with the previous set-up had been a net gain, BioWare would've stuck with it. Instead, the quickbar issue was causing a net loss; people were quitting instead of buying the extra bars, and the new system was getting a lot of bad press. So that's a win for rational people, for now, but the problem is that some people obviously believe selling the UI was copasetic. As long as those people exist, companies will keep pushing the boundaries of what is acceptable to withhold and sell.
    Can I have your fact sheet for this behind the scenes data you have? Oh wait, you don't have it. So all we actually know is they received feedback and then acted on it. Is the model better for it? Is it what we asked for? Yes. Yes.

  9. #629
    Yes, basic economic concepts are "semantics".

  10. #630
    Okay, so you tell me.

    What do subscribers spend their stipend on?

    Bags that can hold anywhere from 1000 credits to 1 million or 3 unlocks that sell for a total of 1 million.
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  11. #631
    Quote Originally Posted by Cooper View Post
    Yes, basic economic concepts are "semantics".
    No, it is semantics. That's like saying subscribers pay for content patches. They don't. They pay for access to the game in a sub only game, or improved features/access to the game in a freemium game. The patches themselves are part of the service delivered by the company.

    So yeah, the extra stipend is "free" in that it's something that has been added on to the fee for full access to the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    Okay, so you tell me.

    What do subscribers spend their stipend on?

    Bags that can hold anywhere from 1000 credits to 1 million or 3 unlocks that sell for a total of 1 million.
    Anecdotal evidence from these boards and the little I've been on the SWTOR boards? They actually buy a lot of the bags to get the rare items that only come from the bags. (assuming you're talking about the cartel pack things >.>)

  12. #632
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    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusherO0 View Post
    Anecdotal evidence from these boards and the little I've been on the SWTOR boards? They actually buy a lot of the bags to get the rare items that only come from the bags. (assuming you're talking about the cartel pack things >.>)
    I think everyone learned their lesson quickly. But good news, there are more bags on the way! Lol.

  13. #633
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    I think everyone learned their lesson quickly. But good news, there are more bags on the way! Lol.
    Those things sell really well in pretty much every game they've made it into. Can't really fault a dev for continuing to put them in when they're clearly a big moneymaker and don't really take all that long to create.

  14. #634
    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusherO0 View Post
    No, it is semantics. That's like saying subscribers pay for content patches. They don't. They pay for access to the game in a sub only game, or improved features/access to the game in a freemium game. The patches themselves are part of the service delivered by the company.
    If subscribers aren't paying for content patches, then how are companies getting the funding to develop said content patches? They're not making them for free, and the costs are passed on to the customers. That's how business works.

    So yeah, the extra stipend is "free" in that it's something that has been added on to the fee for full access to the game.
    It may (or may not) be better value for the customer's money, but it is not "free." It's just a marketing ploy - just like the toy in a kid's meal. You can bet that McDonald's is not eating the cost of including a toy car in their Happy Meals, and neither is BioWare eating the cost of including Cartel Points for subscribers.

  15. #635
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cooper View Post
    If subscribers aren't paying for content patches, then how are companies getting the funding to develop said content patches? They're not making them for free, and the costs are passed on to the customers. That's how business works.
    This is why you are arguing semantics. It's not economics. A subscription covers access to the game and whatever that is legally outlined to entail. A company might need to recover expenditures with that money, or might not. Going forward content is created to keep money coming in, aka keeping subscriptions active. Just because people use your money to make more money, doesn't mean that anything given back has an associated cost to you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cooper View Post
    It may (or may not) be better value for the customer's money, but it is not "free." It's just a marketing ploy - just like the toy in a kid's meal. You can bet that McDonald's is not eating the cost of including a toy car in their Happy Meals, and neither is BioWare eating the cost of including Cartel Points for subscribers.
    Regardless, the cost is not being passed on to the consumer unless when they added toys they raised the price. Possibly they cut costs elsewhere, but no extra cost is being passed to the consumer. More realistically is that they reduced their margin in order to have a higher net gain on the product at the same cost to the consumer. This is common sense for advertising.

    Cartel Coins don't even factor in the same at all since they are an imaginary/digital good. The Cartel Coins are given freely without any promise of giving you things to spend them on from an Economic stand point. The effort it took to create 'Cartel Coin' is negligible. Refer to the first point, where anything added is work to continue money coming in.

    sheesh, give people internet access to the NASDAQ and CNN tickers on TV and suddenly everyone is an Econ major.

  16. #636
    Forget it.

    You're not just going through ridiculous contortions to justify the idea that there really is such a thing as a free lunch, you're smarmy about it.
    Last edited by Cooper; 2012-12-06 at 09:04 PM.

  17. #637
    Quote Originally Posted by Cooper View Post
    Forget it.

    You're not just going through ridiculous contortions to justify the idea that there really is such a thing as a free lunch, you're smarmy about it.
    That's so not what he is saying.
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  18. #638
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    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    That's so not what he is saying.
    Oh of course not, but let's imagine for a minute that I am. You know how I would win that argument?

    Plants.

    Plants eat air, water and sunlight for lunch. Do you know what they pay for that? Not a damn thing.

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