5.1 Warlock changes

[Zinnin]

I don't think Carrion Swarm is good enough. It requires melee range

Not with MF =P

[Elmi]

Oh and regarding GoSup and GoServ still being inferior to GoSac for Affliction in a relatively stationary single-target PvE scenario. What about making Haunt affect pet's damage?

[gez]

From what I've seen, people justify KjC's use by the situation that happens once every full moon: That time when you finished 90% of the cast and need to move right away.

---------- Post added 2012-10-13 at 02:57 PM ----------



I don't think Carrion Swarm is good enough. It requires melee range, and knock backs aren't what they used to be, especially without snares.

I had previously proposed to return to the Cata CC model and implement Shadowflame, Ranged targeted Howl of Terror, and something else.

If anything the best choice would be to give Death Coil to all specs and replace with something like Shadowflame, although it should be more powerful.

However, in the end, other classes should have their CC reduced if PvP is to become actually playable.

you can always increase the range just like dreadlords in well of the eternity and add a kinda of weak slow like 50% for 4-5 sec.

all this w/o losing the stun but if we gotta chose plz give me that stun, also KJC isnt that bad had you ever tried using it in arena as destro? its pretty usable ( obviusly the talent is too punishing) but if you play with a Hpala who can freadom you+ backdraft you can move and keep generating embers casting 1.9 incinarate+felflame

also in nuking time you just active kjc+ freadom and start landing those CBS.




just a question do we aggre that having both a strong single target stun for destro and a decent knockback (with a slow if posible for a short duration) as baseline for all the spec wont make us broken?

[pokeadott]

As a destro lock, you're generally not the peeler, you're the peel... ee?

The problem you're describing with "too high" vs "useless" is a healing issue. Too much light healing flying around negates normal damage. Burst damage beats burst healing otherwise arena matches would never end.

Couple things...

1) Comp/Strat dictates how the peeling goes. If you're with a Shaman healer, there are many many comps that are looking to just CD your shamie to death (DK/Ret, Shatterplay, etc etc). Considering how easy my damage is to predict and how good our defensives counter rush-down comps (dif story vs traindown), it's easy enough to just ignore me while tunneling into my shaman. Ever try to peel a DK as a warlock? Or a Mage? Or worse a Warrior? Back in the day, we at least had Coil that could buy 3 seconds to land a heal which could save the game. Now, I blow Fear DR's and then have to hope to out pressure them - not easy when their healer can free-cast all day. I really really really miss having something besides Fear - esp conidering the other tools that classes have gotten. We are falling behind in that arms race.

2) Too high vs useless is *not* a healing issue. It's an issue with our burst. We are only dangerous when we have Embers with DS/Trinket up - every 2 min at a minimum. Look at mages with shatters every 30 sec (sometimes every 10 - frostbombing a nova is insane), or spriests mindspike/blasting, or elles thwoing out Lavabursts and Fulms. These happen with regularity. Do they hit as hard as DS/Trink/CB? Nope. Do they do significant and impactful damage on a frequent basis though? Yes. I'd rather be able to take 70% of a health bar every 30-60 seconds than 95% of it every 2 minutes. Destro feels really awkwardly tuned to be too good when the stars align, but too trickley when they don't.


...


Also, I'd love to see what kind of restrictions you're looking at for a knockback (CD/Range/etc) vs. a stun. Unless I play with a DK/Boomkin/SPirest, a stun would double dip on DRs (not a terrible thing, but something to consider) so maybe a knockback in that situation. On the otherhand, we are already really really good on vertical axis maps (hi portal), so knockback might solve a problem we don't really have. Really hope it's off embers either way.

---------- Post added 2012-10-13 at 12:04 PM ----------

also KJC isnt that bad had you ever tried using it in arena as destro? its pretty usable ( obviusly the talent is too punishing) but if you play with a Hpala who can freadom you+ backdraft you can move and keep generating embers casting 1.9 incinarate+felflame

also in nuking time you just active kjc+ freadom and start landing those CBS.

Not really. For building embers/mobile dmg, Fel Flame is superior on everything but mana - non issue usually. In pvp, there are way too many situations where you will accidently move and incur the penalty to justify having the on-use ability. It's not worth the drawback. If they got rid of the passive, I'd definitely consider taking it for pvp (again - how does this not demonstrate that the talent is crap? give me a nerfed version and i'm happier).

I'm usually rolling with MF to try to max out RoF - not for the useless stun, but for ember generation. I spend a crazy amount of time trying to game embers.

KC - Please make KC incur a zero cast time penalty. Limit it by CD, limit it by spells, limit it by anything but a cast time penalty. Or make it 5% like the Shamie LB glyph.

MF - Please include Howl/SFury.

AV - Please make it 2 seconds of 100% damage feedback to give it some use.

[gez]

[QUOTE=pokeadott;18737477]Couple things...

1) Comp/Strat dictates how the peeling goes. If you're with a Shaman healer, there are many many comps that are looking to just CD your shamie to death (DK/Ret, Shatterplay, etc etc). Considering how easy my damage is to predict and how good our defensives counter rush-down comps (dif story vs traindown), it's easy enough to just ignore me while tunneling into my shaman. Ever try to peel a DK as a warlock? Or a Mage? Or worse a Warrior? Back in the day, we at least had Coil that could buy 3 seconds to land a heal which could save the game. Now, I blow Fear DR's and then have to hope to out pressure them - not easy when their healer can free-cast all day. I really really really miss having something besides Fear - esp conidering the other tools that classes have gotten. We are falling behind in that arms race.

2) Too high vs useless is *not* a healing issue. It's an issue with our burst. We are only dangerous when we have Embers with DS/Trinket up - every 2 min at a minimum. Look at mages with shatters every 30 sec (sometimes every 10 - frostbombing a nova is insane), or spriests mindspike/blasting, or elles thwoing out Lavabursts and Fulms. These happen with regularity. Do they hit as hard as DS/Trink/CB? Nope. Do they do significant and impactful damage on a frequent basis though? Yes. I'd rather be able to take 70% of a health bar every 30-60 seconds than 95% of it every 2 minutes. Destro feels really awkwardly tuned to be too good when the stars align, but too trickley when they don't.


...


Also, I'd love to see what kind of restrictions you're looking at for a knockback (CD/Range/etc) vs. a stun. Unless I play with a DK/Boomkin/SPirest, a stun would double dip on DRs (not a terrible thing, but something to consider) so maybe a knockback in that situation. On the otherhand, we are already really really good on vertical axis maps (hi portal), so knockback might solve a problem we don't really have. Really hope it's off embers either way.[COLOR="red"]

---------- Post added 2012-10-13 at 12:04 PM ----------


this happened for a while till i learned how to deal with it, and yes FF is better to build ember while moving but you will oom yourself pretty quick, if you just sustain your dps while moving with incinerate and then a FF you will keep your mana usable and also improve your ember generation+ havoc, its take time to adatp to the passive but once you used to it aint that bad ( i dont recommend using it outside having a Hpaly as healer) the snare thing is avoidable with freedom but with another healer im not sure, i think if you keep just one stack it could be usable but havent try

im sticking with the idea that KJC needs the MS passive removed ( i think its alrdy removed but not sure) and it will be a better talent to use, also 2 more seconds on the active, also fakecasting is like more easier just make a macro /stop casting /cast felflame and done it lol

i dont find any use to MF outside breaking openers from rogues SP/druids and mages

and av is just useless any kinda of shield/self heal negate the effect its needs to be increase to 50% or at least 40%, your idea is like too powerful but too short unless you get hitted by a CB i dont really think that the enemy will take much dmgs in those 2 secs, also i can stop dealing dmgs in that moment and AV will be like a 2Sec inmunity its not worth

[Phoenexis]

I personally think that if we were to get a stun it should be on a unique DR, otherwise it's a little bit lackluster. But we really need a stun on another DR, and multiple ways to CC our targets like before. Fear is the most countered CC in the game, hence why we had AoE fear, Death Coil and Shadowfury. Destruction relied heavily on its diversity in terms of DRs, without that it's pretty much stuck in a bad place in many situations: getting trained after the healer has dispelled, attempting to help your partners that are getting rushed, applying some pressure while not bursting, etc...

I don't think that having 2 knock-backs would solve the problem, it would only solve half of it. Having Carrion Swarm with a 50% snare would make up for the loss of Shadowflame, not the whole toolkit.

[Deleted]

Gez, as destruction, you're locked out of casting so often, that using Fel Flame to generate embers doesn't leave you oom for long :+)

[Jessicka]

I personally think that if we were to get a stun it should be on a unique DR, otherwise it's a little bit lackluster. But we really need a stun on another DR, and multiple ways to CC our targets like before. Fear is the most countered CC in the game, hence why we had AoE fear, Death Coil and Shadowfury. Destruction relied heavily on its diversity in terms of DRs, without that it's pretty much stuck in a bad place in many situations: getting trained after the healer has dispelled, attempting to help your partners that are getting rushed, applying some pressure while not bursting, etc...

I don't think that having 2 knock-backs would solve the problem, it would only solve half of it. Having Carrion Swarm with a 50% snare would make up for the loss of Shadowflame, not the whole toolkit.

"Unique" DR would be too strong, I think you're looking for a sleep or root, something not in our current toolkit.

[Deleted]

bigger radius on shadowfury would be ridiculous.. please leave it how it is now.

[Phoenexis]

"Unique" DR would be too strong, I think you're looking for a sleep or root, something not in our current toolkit.

Well, if it's on a 45 second cooldown I don't see how we could abuse it much, especially since we're so limited in terms of CC diversity. The problem with Destruction isn't only the lack of mobility and gap openers, but also the tools to peel and get casts off.
If this new spell were to be implemented, then people would no longer be using Shadowfury because both would get caught up into each other with DR. That's already sort of the case with Demonology and the Felguard.
We are in desperate need of different sources of effective CCs because:
-Our peeling is lousy and very problematic when we are not being focused
-Our chain CCs are inferior to all other casters
-Our main CC type (fear effect) is the most vulnerable to counters
-Our windows of opportunity for casting are very small

[Deleted]

Personally i feel that we need to get a Disorientate instead of a stun but that is only due to Shadowfury DR's.

If we had Dragons breath, we would be able to deal with melee easier as this is quite obviously where the issue is.

[Deleted]

Hence the Flamethrower ! You just have to figure out how to implement it so that it isn't too similar to Dragons Breath.

[Lucidious]

I still think a 3 second stun on a 45 second cooldown that is single target and doesn't cost an ember is the easiest and most effective option. I have been imagining having some sort of ability all day while i've been bg'ing/dueling and whether or not it would come in handy and a stun trumps them all. Mix that with mortal coil or howl and we got ourselves some casting options.

[pokeadott]

I still think a 3 second stun on a 45 second cooldown that is single target and doesn't cost an ember is the easiest and most effective option. I have been imagining having some sort of ability all day while i've been bg'ing/dueling and whether or not it would come in handy and a stun trumps them all. Mix that with mortal coil or howl and we got ourselves some casting options.

If we're looking at more than stun/knockback, my actual prefered option would be a root on a short CD. We would get a better duration and short CD because it doesnt cause loss of control, and it would solve our major issues with creating a casting window. If we could get anything, I'd take a 5-8sec single target root on a 20-30sec CD. That would definitely be more attractive than a stun or knockback to me.

...

As for the 2 sec 100% on AV, I think you're under-estimating how powerful that would be. Ideally it's usable while CC'ed so picture feedbacking a shatter combo, or the initial dmg of Stampede/Blink, or a recklessness/avatar unload, etc. A LOT of damage goes out in 2 seconds. It would give the ability a skill cap and a purpose imo.

[Zharradan]

if it's a powerful knock back WITH roots on 30-45sec cd it is better than a stun. stun conflicts with almost all classes, DR is a bitch

it must be roots because melees have so much gap closers today so it prevents instant charge when they got knockback'd

@edit: better yet, a single 4sec root ranged targeted (like shadowfury) on a short cd, something like 15 sec

[gez]

Gez, as destruction, you're locked out of casting so often, that using Fel Flame to generate embers doesn't leave you oom for long :+)

well the only thing that is capable to lock me down in arena is a warrior, outside that i cast really often, its pretty hard to kite and i need my team to peel my ass out, but i find BF/howl the way to go in any arena its give me decent cast windown BUT still feels like something is missing that stun and a knockback will fill that empty spot

and yes thats true im not getting OOM so hard by spaming FF cuse im doing muliple things not only dmgs, but i dont like having to spam a thing that would leave me oom for a couple of sec, now more than ever that the new stuns needs RoF to be pulled out

also plz dont ask for a single target stun with 3 sec duration, why the hell i will want that when i have shadowfury? and is an aoe stun, if its going to be single target its need to be 5 sec at least


roots on a 30-45 sec is just too weak its need to be in a short cd 15-20 sec,freedom just counter it to easy, as many classes can break roots so no the stun is more powerful and its not needs to be in an unique DR that would be broken, you can always setup your stun with your team an example:


im playing with a frost mage ( some times fire) and an Hpala i picked howl cuse there was no need fore shadowfury there, but if i get a single target stun it will be DF always on the target to kill my stun on the healer and paly stun to support our cc thats all, decent pvp player can organized several stuns and make them effective


also green fire is comming at 5.2? im so sad now T.T what i just read in mmo just made me cry in a corner so deeply

[Phoenexis]

Personally i feel that we need to get a Disorientate instead of a stun but that is only due to Shadowfury DR's.

If we had Dragons breath, we would be able to deal with melee easier as this is quite obviously where the issue is.

Hence why I said stun on different DR
How about a stunning flamethrower?

[wholol]

" I need" "we need" I can see a lot of those around, this shouldn't be about opinion, which is better for creating kill windows and gaining distance? a daze? a knockback? a stun ?a root? are any of these magical / physical, why ? because a stun that bypasses a DK's shell and doesn't get reflected by warrior's reflect is a much more accurate form of control than a magical stun and so on.

if xel wants to provide us with "the most powerful possible incarnation of any given mechanic" are simple stuns and knockbacks enough? does the knockback root or daze? imo for that very description to come into play the idea really needs to be thought out of the box.

[Jessicka]

if it's a powerful knock back WITH roots on 30-45sec cd it is better than a stun. stun conflicts with almost all classes, DR is a bitch

"the most powerful possible incarnation of any given mechanic"

A Meteor, that hits the ground at the feet of your opponent(s), launching them 40 yards and burying them under debris leaving them unable to move, ever again.

[Phoenexis]

The best form of CC would probably be a stun (although DK's IBF can counter that) on a different DR, so maybe some form of character disabling ability that isn't even classified as a stun would be the best case.