1. #1

    Calculating my EP and came up with something weird.

    After calculating my EP on my 469 geared rogue I got the following values:
    SUBTLETY
    Agi 3.73
    AP 1.05
    Crit 1.02
    Haste 0.77
    Mastery 0.88

    This doesn't sound right to me at all. My armory link: (can't post links yet, so just add this to the armory EU) /en/character/grim-batol/Dakilla/simple
    I've set Simcraft to use my nonactive specc and checked so it did use my subtlety specc.

    In my combat gear and specc I got:
    Agi 3.22
    AP 1.19
    Crit 0.96
    Haste 1.24
    Mastery 1.04

    This looked pretty ok to me.
    Last edited by DaKilla; 2012-10-11 at 09:30 AM.

  2. #2
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    Crit is being valued oddly high and mastery oddly low in simcraft for Subtlety, I've yet to see a definitive answer as to why.
    I am the lucid dream
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  3. #3
    How do simulations take into account HAT?
    Shadow Walk : Significantly increases Stealth effectiveness for 6 sec, but causes Stealth to be nerfed to justify its usage. In addition, it uses old Enveloping Shadows icon and has no sound, animation or spell effect to show that the skill is actually doing something.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Sendai View Post
    How do simulations take into account HAT?
    I'm pretty sure it just adds a CP every 2 secs when you do a sim as a solo char.

  5. #5
    Well that is indeed very weird. Whatever you are using is complete garbage. AP by definition is worth 1 EP for every spec all the time. That is why its "equivalence points." You are looking at other stats equivalent value in attack power. I mean technically you could set the equivalent stat as crit or agi or whatever, but none of your stats are showing as worth 1 EP so... those numbers are equivalent to what exactly?

  6. #6
    Yeah I guess I'm doing something wrong, just don't know what. I've been playing rogue since Vanilla but never went to deep into simcrafting myself. Used tools like shadowcraft before.

  7. #7
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    Well that is indeed very weird. Whatever you are using is complete garbage. AP by definition is worth 1 EP for every spec all the time. That is why its "equivalence points." You are looking at other stats equivalent value in attack power. I mean technically you could set the equivalent stat as crit or agi or whatever, but none of your stats are showing as worth 1 EP so... those numbers are equivalent to what exactly?
    It's not EP, it's a scale factor. You can opt to normalize them though and have one stat worth 1 and the rest worth their value relative to it.
    I am the lucid dream
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    It's not EP, it's a scale factor. You can opt to normalize them though and have one stat worth 1 and the rest worth their value relative to it.
    I didn't say there weren't other valid ways to assign values to stats than EP. However, the OP specifically said he got those numbers for his EP and asked if something was weird, and the first thing that I would look to see to look for weird results was if the stat you are setting things equivalent to is actually worth 1. None of them were, which is weird for EP, thus my post.

  9. #9
    Is Sim-C right, or the more traditional assumptions? Sub only got easier to model this expansion.

    Hrm.

  10. #10
    Yeah those aren't EP values. Equivalence Points are, by definition, normalized to AP=EP.

    Maybe Simcraft normalizes its values to 1 DPS = 1 point? The OP makes very little sense to me because I have no idea how Simcraft relates the value of stats to each other...

  11. #11
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    Is it perhaps something to do with loosing the +crit chance to backstab/ambush, thus making crit more viable as they were generally being capped by most sub rogues pre-mop?

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by DScythe View Post
    Is it perhaps something to do with loosing the +crit chance to backstab/ambush, thus making crit more viable as they were generally being capped by most sub rogues pre-mop?
    Crit is worth less now because you lose the crit multiplier in lethality. I don't think any rogue had capped backstab crit... that would require having had 70% crit chance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    Is Sim-C right, or the more traditional assumptions? Sub only got easier to model this expansion.

    Hrm.
    I'd lean towards simc being wrong based on the large difference between actual results and what they suggest (not just the pure dps numbers, but the relationship between the specs). I realize it was fairly close for DS, but doesn't seem to be the case now.

  13. #13
    Crit is worth less now because:
    1)- No critical mulitplier
    2)- No energy rewards for critting (glyph of backstab)
    3)- No dot rewards for critting (firelands 2 piece)


    Sim-C could for sure be wrong. For years it couldn't do sub at all, but I though that was all worked out, which is why I'm so surprised at these very different numbers.

  14. #14
    Theoretically it's possible that new scaling (rating, not "scaling" referring to rogue gear as a whole) has put crit ahead of other stats! At 600 rating to 1% crit that's a viable option, right? With another 6,000 crit rating I could get another 10% crit! I'll grant that applies to poisons now, but even assuming 0 crit from anything (base crit chance, agility), I'd be seeing almost a 10% damage increase in 6,000 rating change. oooooh.

    Edit: To be clear, I was saying 6,000 MORE crit is just over an 8.8% damage increase for me, which, I suspect, is truly negligible compared to 6,000 haste, rather than "pretty close".
    Last edited by Kael; 2012-10-12 at 09:14 PM.

  15. #15
    The relative value of rating to percent crit has changed in the same way that mastery, expertise, haste, etc. have. So that alone wouldn't account for it.

    It doesn't mean that crit is necessarily bad- I mean, poisons can crit at double strength now- but it seems very strange when we expect it to be lower. I'm most surprised at how low haste shows in that top post.

  16. #16
    Legendary! Xanjori's Avatar
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    Crit only becamse good last xpac when we got T12 2set tbh, without the 2set it was a long long way behind haste. With the bonus crit damage and everything else we lost now crit cant be good really.
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