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  1. #1

    boss fights in dungeons interesting?

    I have yet to step into any dungeon except AC Storymode. I'll be honest, the fights weren't that interesting. Same ghost models seen everywhere and just slightly larger, not very inspiring. All the fights had a simple dps them down asap except the lovers where you had to try and separate them. Nothing that great.


    ** below contain storymode spoilers ***


    Today I fought the mouth of Zhaitan at the end of this weird illusionary party. If the setting was like the inside was like a mansion and when they revealed themselves the walls also faded away that would of been better. Anyway the mouth fight was interesting compared to AC.

    He could AoE stomp and send out a three waves of fire which was a knockdown as well. So ranged and melee damage attacks
    Ghost weapons circled him which I took out first (not sure if I need to) but they followed you once they got down past 50% health.
    He also ate ancient artifacts which slaves delivering to him (not sure but I think they buffed and healed him)
    Also he looked different to anything I had seen in the game (new model) I find this to be important than just using oversized mobs from the game world.
    The room had a nice setup of 4 pillars to LoS him, and a ramp where the slaves came down. So the fight could be fought on different levels.

    I think the best thing I liked about the fight is no one shot kills from the boss but if not handled correctly the fight could quickly get out of hand.

    Are there any interesting boss fights in the dungeons or will it be more like AC SM?
    Last edited by MrSerious; 2012-10-10 at 01:39 PM.
    "you can't be serious!!" - yes actually I am.

  2. #2
    Stood in the Fire Tintenkiller's Avatar
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    Did they change Mouth of Zhaitan since I did it then? I did it like 3 weeks ago - and it had all the mechanics you described mind you. Yet I could simply tunneldrive dps him from afar as a ranger. I didn't have to mind the artifacts - their bonus was totally neglectable, in fact it was faster to just dps the boss instead of switching to the slaves. Those weapons surrounding him? Didn't touch them, watched how they ripped apart the NPCs and didn't bother.
    So ... nah, not really an interesting fight, since it was actually fastest to simply ignore EVERY mechanic of him, stay at a distance to sidestep his ranged attacks and tunneldrive him...

  3. #3
    TBH no not really any interesting fights.

  4. #4
    It's funny, because some outdoor events actually have more interesting mechanics than the 5-man instances, but they go unnoticed because the events just get zerged.

  5. #5
    I often can't tell when we are fighting a "boss". They don't seem different than the champion mobs for the most part.

    For example, in SF I didn't realize those golems were boss encounters till like the 3rd or 4th run. During CoE I thought that Resident Evil looking guy was just a mundane champion. You fight him like 4 separate times so I just thought there was one of him in every room. CM is one of the worst for this because the "bosses" look almost identical to the rest of the baddies.

    Most encounter tactics in the dungeons are what we used to call, "tank & spank" bosses in EQ. There is no actual tanking ala EQ but tactically speaking the concept is the same; just shoot the boss, don't die. "Tank & spank" was traditionally seen as a lowly, lazy or crude form of encounter. layers used to denigrate such encounters. Certainly so, sometime after SoL and PoP that went out of fashion. I guess GW2 is more appropriately called; "kite & spank".

    There were 2 bosses so far in which someone stopped to say, "Okay, for this boss you..."; werewolf guy and the part with the wasps in TAx.

    Only thing to expect different in Expo mode is more HP and more damage from mobs/traps. That is the only means by which Anet can make this style of combat work. Everything in the game is only challenging due to "more hp & more damage". Tactics don't vary much.


    Very disappointed in the dungeons of GW2. Guild Wars 1's missions were so much fun and so thoughtfully made.

    In GW2? This is Nintendo/twitch gaming stuff. Meh, not interested.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2012-10-10 at 02:20 PM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post

    Very disappointed in the dungeons of GW2. Guild Wars 1's missions were so much fun and so thoughtfully made.
    I quite agree. I remarked in another thread that I wished ArenaNet had gone with the mission style in their instances/dungeons rather than the typical mmo dungeon mode.

  7. #7
    Well, I think the "dungeons" of GWEN were more thought out than in GW2. Somewhat more challenging too because you had to really work as a team in GW1. And that was totally true in the Hard Mode and elite missions.

    Maybe it's just because I am having a blast in GW1 right now, but something I said before still holds true for me in GW2: even when we [guildies] are playing "correctly" it feels like that team work is incidental or not really necessary to the dungeon.

    The parts that I do like from GW2's dungeons are when we have to cooperate. Like the room in the submarine path in COE where someone works the consoles to shut off lasers/summon robots. That to me is Guild Wars, team cooperation.

    Like one of the first quests in GW1 pre-Searing is finding a friend to hit a switch so you can walk through a door. Or the teleporter stones in Dunes of Despair, tree seeds in Maguuma, etc. That's still a remarkable point of design and philosophy.

    Other side of it is as my sister [also a GW1 fan] put it: "I feel like I am solo-ing next to other people in GW2. We're not really working together."

    I want that necessary teamwork to conquer a bigger/impossible puzzle.

  8. #8
    Oh I agree with you Fencers. I'm actually kind of surprised that ANet went the route they did with their dungeons. It seems so unlike their previous designs.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Doozerjun View Post
    Oh I agree with you Fencers. I'm actually kind of surprised that ANet went the route they did with their dungeons. It seems so unlike their previous designs.
    Should say I don't dislike the style of GW2's dungeons. I think they can be really fun romps. It's just that dungeons are sorta brainless or so uneven in difficulty I can't imagine they had enough QA for the dungeons.

    But fun 'gogogo' missions/dungeons with tons of little mobs, mini-events, some champs and little puzzles? Hell yea! Take a page from DDO or Raiderz if you are going to do that style though. Please.

  10. #10
    The Lightbringer Karizee's Avatar
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    Depends on the dungeon & the boss of course ;-)

    Positioning & kiting is critical to most dungeons, knowing which utility skills to use & weapons to swap, maximixing useage of environmental weapons, traps & triggers, utilizing dynamic events like getting the Cave Troll boss to fight Lt Kholer in xAC, judicious use of CC and speed buffs, line of sight, knowing where you can jump in water to rez/heal yourself, assigning offensive/defensive teams, assigning timed tasks like setting triggers, etc.

    Great fun! No boring gear checks here
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  11. #11
    Positioning & kiting is critical to most dungeons, knowing which utility skills to use & weapons to swap, maximixing useage of environmental weapons, traps & triggers, utilizing dynamic events like getting the Cave Troll boss to fight Lt Kholer in xAC, judicious use of CC and speed buffs, line of sight, knowing where you can jump in water to rez/heal yourself, assigning offensive/defensive teams, assigning timed tasks like setting triggers, etc
    Wow. To someone that hasn't played the game, that marketing-style paragraph there might lead them to believe the instances are actually really deep and challenging.

    Of course, it's a pretty big exercize in straw-grasping, but they don't have to know that!

  12. #12
    Bloodsail Admiral Riavan's Avatar
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    Trash is harder than boss mechanics.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-11 at 08:19 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Well, I think the "dungeons" of GWEN were more thought out than in GW2. Somewhat more challenging too because you had to really work as a team in GW1. And that was totally true in the Hard Mode and elite missions.

    Maybe it's just because I am having a blast in GW1 right now, but something I said before still holds true for me in GW2: even when we [guildies] are playing "correctly" it feels like that team work is incidental or not really necessary to the dungeon.

    The parts that I do like from GW2's dungeons are when we have to cooperate. Like the room in the submarine path in COE where someone works the consoles to shut off lasers/summon robots. That to me is Guild Wars, team cooperation.

    Like one of the first quests in GW1 pre-Searing is finding a friend to hit a switch so you can walk through a door. Or the teleporter stones in Dunes of Despair, tree seeds in Maguuma, etc. That's still a remarkable point of design and philosophy.

    Other side of it is as my sister [also a GW1 fan] put it: "I feel like I am solo-ing next to other people in GW2. We're not really working together."

    I want that necessary teamwork to conquer a bigger/impossible puzzle.
    I have to say I hated those mechanics. The ones where someone holds a gate for you, or lets others teleport etc. Terrible. They're not imaginative, or great, they're tacky and old and even gauntlet legends got over them. I pray that phantasy star online 2 won't have them also. The tree seeds are probably the part I can identify that I hated most about gw1, nearly as bad as the gamecube first crystal chronicles title where someone would have to constantly hold a torch for everyone else.
    Last edited by Riavan; 2012-10-10 at 10:20 PM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Riavan View Post

    I have to say I hated those mechanics. The ones where someone holds a gate for you, or lets others teleport etc. Terrible. They're not imaginative, or great, they're tacky and old and even gauntlet legends got over them. I pray that phantasy star online 2 won't have them also. The tree seeds are probably the part I can identify that I hated most about gw1, nearly as bad as the gamecube first crystal chronicles title where someone would have to constantly hold a torch for everyone else.
    They don't really have to be imaginative or new mechanics. They just represent the design agenda in a very clear way; cooperate. That those elements are introduced very early on and enforced [can't really game the gate puzzle] is worth noting.

    Contrasted with GW2 which doesn't emphasize needed cooperation in any strict sense; yea, it's a big departure.

    The design was predicated on a player being glad they succeeded through cooperation. Not that you got to swing a sword and I held a torch or some other gadget.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by zito View Post
    TBH no not really any interesting fights.
    Now, now there are some really cool fights in the game, they're just overshadowed by some of the more horrendous ones.

  15. #15
    Fencer expressed it quite well.

    Encounter design in GW2 is seriously lacking in many regards. It almost seems like ANet hasn't played a modern MMO in years and just copied some of the mechanics that were around in 2008 and called it a day.

    ANet only really knows one mechanic to make things difficult, and that's instantly one-shotting the players with..whatever. It's actually quite annoying at times. Very few encounter are actually fun and engaging while also being challenging.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Tintenkiller View Post
    Did they change Mouth of Zhaitan since I did it then? I did it like 3 weeks ago - and it had all the mechanics you described mind you. Yet I could simply tunneldrive dps him from afar as a ranger. I didn't have to mind the artifacts - their bonus was totally neglectable, in fact it was faster to just dps the boss instead of switching to the slaves. Those weapons surrounding him? Didn't touch them, watched how they ripped apart the NPCs and didn't bother.
    So ... nah, not really an interesting fight, since it was actually fastest to simply ignore EVERY mechanic of him, stay at a distance to sidestep his ranged attacks and tunneldrive him...
    I don't think they changed it from when you did it but for me I approached the fight very differently. As a guardian I picked off the floating weapons with my scepter then went in with a hammer to hit the boss, when the adds came down I trapped them in that circle or punted them away with my banish ability.

    Sounds like I basically made the fight more of a challenge than I needed to but I enjoyed it more than any other minor boss fight so far especially the boss fights in AC.

    Now had the mouth eating the artifacts gave him that frenzy buff which stacks would of been better. Even though It sounds like I did it the hard way the potential was there for a good fight.

    One very important thing for dungeon bosses is they should look different than oversized trash mobs. The volcanoe zone fight in mount maelstrom is ok probably more due to the setting of the fight but when an oversized destroyer popped up I was disappointed. I like interesting bosses, with interesting fight mechanics, in interesting surroundings. surely that's not too hard to do. They can then shrink all the bosses and hand them out as mini pets as well.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-11 at 09:00 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Very disappointed in the dungeons of GW2. Guild Wars 1's missions were so much fun and so thoughtfully made.
    IS there an good example of this in youtube? I could do some random search but perhaps the name of one fo the better missions in GW1.
    "you can't be serious!!" - yes actually I am.

  17. #17
    For every boss in GW2 that is somewhat fun or interesting, there is at least one that is 10 minutes of spamming damage abilities. The ones that I've found more interesting were the event ones, not the single boss ones. A lot of times, trash is more difficult than bosses.

  18. #18
    High Overlord arukas's Avatar
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    Only done the story mode of the first 4 dungeons and I can say the only one I really enjoyed and found interesting was the last boss of SE. The rest was kinda boring and not much thinking required.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by MrSerious View Post
    IS there an good example of this in youtube? I could do some random search but perhaps the name of one fo the better missions in GW1.
    I don't know about youtube vids. Might want to looks for Urgoz's Warden, Gate of Madness, The Deep, Domain of Anguish, Arborstone, Eternal Grove, Glint's Lair, Tomb of Primeval Kings, etc.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2012-10-11 at 04:22 PM.

  20. #20
    for a guy that loved the wow raiding, I find the dungeons and the boss fights a bad joke. Many reasons here, no use in elaborating. Bottom line is I find them very stale.

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