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  1. #1

    Balance : Haste vs Crit?

    I have been naturally been going haste as my first secondary stat out of habit from cata but looking at EJ and top boomkins in the world it seems since the break points for haste are so far off without 4 piece everyone is stacking crit.

    It seems like a very mathy question and the sims i use seem to be not quite up to date.

    I know there are some really smart boomkins in these forums if you want to chuck in your 2 cents it would be greatly appreciated.

  2. #2
    Zookeeper Sunfyre's Avatar
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    There's a ton of places this is already answered (including the guide) -- go haste cap first. Then crit.

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  3. #3
    it all depends really. if you look at top logs for feng and elegon the biggest dps is coming from haste reforges, however on the multi-dot fights the best dps is coming from heavy crit reforge or a balance between the two. unless you want to reforge for every single fight just choose which is more valuable to you and your raid.

    its quite intuitive really:

    single target w/ haste = higher nature's grace and more starfires
    multi target w/ crit = more starsurge procs

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by crunk View Post
    it all depends really. if you look at top logs for feng and elegon the biggest dps is coming from haste reforges, however on the multi-dot fights the best dps is coming from heavy crit reforge or a balance between the two. unless you want to reforge for every single fight just choose which is more valuable to you and your raid.

    its quite intuitive really:

    single target w/ haste = higher nature's grace and more starfires
    multi target w/ crit = more starsurge procs
    I would imagine on multi target fights, you would make better use of the extra ticks from being haste capped. If there's enough targets, it's easy enough to have starsurge saturation while still maintaining that haste cap.

    Reaching that haste cap also works with your crit. Dot ticks are occurring more often, and you're getting 1 extra tick which is another chance to crit for a starsurge proc.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by earthwormjim View Post
    I would imagine on multi target fights, you would make better use of the extra ticks from being haste capped. If there's enough targets, it's easy enough to have starsurge saturation while still maintaining that haste cap.

    Reaching that haste cap also works with your crit. Dot ticks are occurring more often, and you're getting 1 extra tick which is another chance to crit for a starsurge proc.
    i see your point, but our dots aren't what they used to be and with zero math to back up my statements it feels like crit is much better on multi-target fights. the only evidence i have for this is top 50 ranks on all the new fights for this tier so take that for what you will. maybe in a few more weeks the math kids will have a definite answer because as it stands great moonkins on both US and EU are all doing different things with stats/talents. i'm pretty sure this is what blizzard was going for, so good job to them i suppose.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by crunk View Post
    i see your point, but our dots aren't what they used to be and with zero math to back up my statements it feels like crit is much better on multi-target fights. the only evidence i have for this is top 50 ranks on all the new fights for this tier so take that for what you will. maybe in a few more weeks the math kids will have a definite answer because as it stands great moonkins on both US and EU are all doing different things with stats/talents. i'm pretty sure this is what blizzard was going for, so good job to them i suppose.
    One thing to keep in mind is that some people are not able to reach ~5200 haste. A lot of the 463 stuff out there has crit or mastery on it. If you can't reach that haste cap, it's better to go all crit.

    Also, our dots are still extremely strong, it's nearly always a dps increase to multi-dot. The more dotting you are doing, the greater the benefit to getting that extra tick on each dot. Just look at Will of the Emperor 25m rankings; Moonfire and Sunfire are the top damaging abilities.

    The druids that ranked on that fight all went for the haste cap.
    Last edited by earthwormjim; 2012-10-12 at 12:00 PM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by crunk View Post
    i see your point, but our dots aren't what they used to be and with zero math to back up my statements it feels like crit is much better on multi-target fights. the only evidence i have for this is top 50 ranks on all the new fights for this tier so take that for what you will. maybe in a few more weeks the math kids will have a definite answer because as it stands great moonkins on both US and EU are all doing different things with stats/talents. i'm pretty sure this is what blizzard was going for, so good job to them i suppose.
    It is best at our current gear level to balance haste and crit. Go for 5273 haste and get as close to that as you can in crit as well. Gem secondary gems. 180 haste + 180 spirit. Or whatever. Depending on your gear. 180 crit + 180 spirit. You can even use a Revitalizing in your helm, and squeeze even more crit by being able to reforge all of that gemmed spirit off of your gear. Into whatever. Haste or crit, depending. Trust me. You won't miss the intellect from the burning, if it helps you reach the breakpoint while balancing the crit rating along the way. From swapping that gem out and being able to reforge all of that gear, I've seen a quite notable increase in dps.
    If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfyre View Post
    There's a ton of places this is already answered (including the guide) -- go haste cap first. Then crit.
    So why Lappé from Paragon is going full crit? http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...C3%A9/advanced
    Main: Wildmax, Drak'thul - Moonkin, Hardcore raider.
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  9. #9
    Field Marshal Shinerr's Avatar
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    So i was wondering this exact thing and after looking at a ton of top end Boomkins on the armory I just decided to do some personal tests on the training dummies. I did 3 builds, One was all crit, one was balance between the two (about 2500 haste and then everything crit>mast), and then one where I went 5273 haste>crit>mast. Now let me just say that there is no real in depth math on this, just me hitting training dummies and spending a fortune on gems/reforges/enchants. For me the two highest were the all crit build and the haste to 5273, they ended up being about 3k dps higher or lower of each other (I am assuming that is just RNG). So basically the same dps, however the haste build felt much smoother and alittle less RNG, especially for things like the orbs on Elegon. Once again these are just my experiences not a math proven fact.
    Last edited by Shinerr; 2012-10-12 at 01:10 PM.

  10. #10
    Also...5.1 buff!
    No, that's a tooltip fix. We already got the buff as a hotfix.

  11. #11
    Field Marshal Shinerr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberowl View Post
    No, that's a tooltip fix. We already got the buff as a hotfix.
    Yeah I saw and tried to edit in time. You beat me though...lol

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Dead_MAX View Post
    So why Lappé from Paragon is going full crit? http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...C3%A9/advanced
    There's also no public logs for Lappé...

    Go with the data you have, logs are showing on Will of the Emperor, a heavy multi-dotting fight, that the top ranking druids are going for the haste cap.

  13. #13
    Zookeeper Sunfyre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AvenDreamz View Post
    im going haste till 5237 breakpoint , here is how i perform --> youtube.com/watch?v=_jRB7abw9o0&feature=youtu.be
    Thank you for linking your video in four different posts.

    That being said, the breakpoint is 5273, not 5237.

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  14. #14
    The answer has pretty much always been that you should hit haste breakpoints whenever possible.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfyre View Post
    Thank you for linking your video in four different posts.

    That being said, the breakpoint is 5273, not 5237.
    even an -2 iq guy would understand that i misstyped the '7' and '3' and here is your answer since i knew only you could said that --> '' Thank you for saying in 6 different posts that haste is > crit till break point '' .... why are u so bad since we agree?

    Don't flame other users for pointing out obvious errors.
    Last edited by Mihir; 2012-10-17 at 08:32 AM.

  16. #16
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    I managed to snag 9th on normal Will this week (under US-Bronzebeard Slippykins (shh it's a fake guild)), and I've recently switched from full haste to 5273 haste then dumping rest into crit. Worked wonders tonights, delicious rankings!

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    I managed to snag 9th on normal Will this week (under US-Bronzebeard Slippykins (shh it's a fake guild)), and I've recently switched from full haste to 5273 haste then dumping rest into crit. Worked wonders tonights, delicious rankings!
    Grats on 9th! But how's that expertise in shoulders working out?
    Last edited by xrayEU; 2012-10-17 at 08:10 AM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by xrayEU View Post
    Grats on 9th! But how's that expertise in shoulders working out?
    If it's intended I guess you want the haste but is it worth it?
    Not sure what you're getting at here, Expertise gives Spell Hit now.

    Slippykins: that's the approach I've been taking and it feels like the most comfortable approach DPS-wise without having to regem/etc between encounters (which would obviously be the optimal approach).
    Last edited by Tecton; 2012-10-17 at 08:21 AM.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Tecton View Post
    Not sure what you're getting at here, Expertise gives Spell Hit now.

    Slippykins: that's the approach I've been taking and it feels like the most comfortable approach DPS-wise without having to regem/etc between encounters (which would obviously be the optimal approach).
    I was afraid someone would say something like that, I had no idéa that expertise gave spell hit.
    So thanks for clearing that up I guess :]

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfyre View Post
    There's a ton of places this is already answered (including the guide) -- go haste cap first. Then crit.
    You were advocating the opposite not that long ago, sometimes I wonder why people rather act like they know stuff, instead of just admitting they aren't sure

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