Thread: [Disc] Elegon

  1. #1
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    [Disc] Elegon

    Has anyone played around with Disc on Elegon?

    Our healers are struggling a bit during the final burn phase (possibly due to some people not dropping stacks enough *cough* melee *cough*). I'm our top DPS on most attempts, and Vampiric Embrace is of course fantastic during that final burn because it scales off the damage buffs already - but we were poking around with the idea of a third healer. Up until that last phase they're 2 healing it with ease, but during that last phase - maybe we're missing a mechanic or something - the damage is absurd even through cooldowns - and once we run out of cooldowns we wipe.

    So thinking about what kind of healer we wanted, it had to be something that could DPS up until that last phase and then bomb heals like crazy - disc was the first choice (we already have a mistweaver as one of the 2 healers doing the same thing pretty much). So I did the math on smite spec on Elegon, unless I'm mistaken in my math somewhere, this is what I got:

    35k DPS as Smite spec on a dummy with raid buffs.

    35,000 * 50% more damage aura = 52,500 DPS / HPS

    52,500 * 100% more damage taken debuff (Draw Power stacks) = 105,000 DPS / HPS

    105,000 DPS * 50% more healing aura = 157,000 HPS

    So it could be that atonement is not affected by the aura twice - that it gains the bonus damage, but not the bonus healing - in which case it would be 105k DPS / HPS - is this the case? If not, would I really be doing 157k HPS during that final burn phase?

    As Shadow I'm probably doing 250-300k DPS during that - so it's a big dps loss to only do 105k, but given the healers don't scale anywhere near as well as the dps do during that burn, I'd slaughter the healing meter as Smite even if atonement doesn't benefit from the aura twice (which I think it probably does) - that would make the fight WAYYY easier (and probably mean I'd never get to shadow on it again, but I think i'd be ok with that given what I'd be gaining here).
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2012-10-12 at 10:07 AM.
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  2. #2
    i'm no big help for that math..
    The way we killed it with 2 healers on last phase was simple, we stacked up at the boss spam healed it and killed it. we could just barely heal through it, even though the raid had 20 stacks in the end. Note that we killed 5 orbs first time and 6 orbs second time, when 7th wave spawned we nuked the boss like hell. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzIbN...1&feature=plcp our kill.

    My point is, you shouldnt need a third healer.. but thats how we did it
    Last edited by Deviolle; 2012-10-12 at 09:53 AM.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    Has anyone played around with Disc on Elegon?

    Our healers are struggling a bit during the final burn phase (possibly due to some people not dropping stacks enough *cough* melee *cough*). I'm our top DPS right now, and Vampiric Embrace is of course fantastic during that final burn because it scales off the damage buffs already - but we were poking around with the idea of a third healer. Up until that last phase they're 2 healing it with ease, but during that last phase - maybe we're missing a mechanic or something - the damage is absurd even through cooldowns - and once we run out of cooldowns we wipe.

    So thinking about what kind of healer we wanted, it had to be something that could DPS up until that last phase and then bomb heals like crazy - disc was the first choice (we already have a mistweaver as one of the 2 healers doing the same thing pretty much). So I did the math on smite spec on Elegon, unless I'm mistaken in my math somewhere, this is what I got:

    35k DPS as Smite spec on a dummy with raid buffs.

    35,000 * 50% more damage aura = 52,500 DPS / HPS

    52,500 * 100% more damage taken debuff (Draw Power stacks) = 105,000 DPS / HPS

    105,000 DPS * 50% more healing aura = 157,000 HPS

    So it could be that atonement is not affected by the aura twice - that it gains the bonus damage, but not the bonus healing - in which case it would be 105k DPS / HPS - is this the case? If not, would I really be doing 157k HPS during that final burn phase?

    As Shadow I'm probably doing 250-300k DPS during that - so it's a big dps loss to only do 105k, but given the healers don't scale anywhere near as well as the dps do during that burn, I'd slaughter the healing meter as Smite even if atonement doesn't benefit from the aura twice (which I think it probably does) - that would make the fight WAYYY easier (and probably mean I'd never get to shadow on it again, but I think i'd be ok with that given what I'd be gaining here).

    My guild downed this boss last night and we two healed it with me as disc and a resto shaman. I will say for certain, do NOT go for 3 healers, you will not down it that way. You will lose too much damage and unless everyones pulling 100k dps or you have elegon down to 35% by time second orb phase ends, I doubt you will be able to kill him.

    For atonement, I was smiting/holyfire/penacing as much as I could, I only was able to get about 24k dps. I was also managing about 60k hps. For rest, I would assume if your healers are getting overwhelmed, its a cd management problem. I wouldn't say melee are problem, especially if you have a rogue (ours was mostly cloaking stacks off and didn't have a problem). As well, what is rest of your group comp? If you have a druid symbiosis you, you will gain tranq which will stabilise your raid. I will also need to know roughly what % you have boss at going into final burn phase and when your using lust exactly.

    Mostly it depends on stabilising your raid and downing adds asap. First thing your guilds going to want to do is get into position, if someone can tranq, would be perfect time to, have a marker about 5 feet off the buff/debuff area and timewarp/lust. Have your healers rotate cooldowns and have dps pop personals after healer cd are up. If you have a lock, make sure your using healthstones. Other than that, its pretty much it, if your healers are still having mana problems or are unable to keep raid up with that, I would say either they need replacing or the dps/tanks are taking too much damage *cough* adds *cough*.

  4. #4
    Blademaster mily's Avatar
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    You dont want to drop stacks druing finaly burn phase, couse you will get much more dmg outside the inner ring. As soon the pillars goes down and inner ring is spawned again, stack on boss and use Hero + all DPS/Heal CD.

  5. #5
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Raid Comp tonight was:
    Brewmaster
    Prot Paladin

    Mistweaver
    Holy Paladin

    Ret Paladin
    Rogue
    Warlock
    Mage
    Warrior
    Spriest

    We're going into the final phase between 35 and 40%, and we're way ahead on the enrage timer - I'm guessing if everyone was alive we would beat the enrage by about 30 seconds (all around 100k dps before the Draw Power stacks start) which is why we think we can swing a third healer particularly if they are dps-y. To clarify, we will get the kill with more practice, we keep getting Elegon to like 10% before we wipe, we just run out of raid walls and such and then all fall down. Our mistweaver is doing like 50-60k hps while our hpal is only around 30-35k though - but the ret and prot and me are doing a sizeable amount of healing as well.

    We were dragging all the adds to the middle to AoE them on the boss, but next time we want to try AoE'ing them when they aren't on the astral elevator so they don't have the damage buff, we thought that might help. Alternatively me as disc could work, or - our normal third healer is a Tree - and we figured we could bring them in as Boomkin and do Heart of the Wild healing during the final phase, we only need like 45 seconds without people dying. As soon as the adds are dead we're lusting, and the bosses health just evaporates - but never quite dissapears before we die (it's been so close I'd been dispersing and hoping he'll die to DoTs a few times now).

    To clarify the third healer thing, if i were going disc - I'd never be casting real heals at any point - I'd probably roll shields for Rapture procs - but it would all be penance/holy fire/smite for atonement as it appears to scale so crazily on this fight. But ya maybe the druid idea is better, or maybe killing the adds off the platform will drop their damage enough - or stacking up and just healing through the debuff will work (we are still having ranged drop stacks during the final phase).

    Thanks for the help
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2012-10-12 at 10:06 AM.
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  6. #6
    Blademaster mily's Avatar
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    Forget about droping stacks, just hug the boss and fire Hero, Barier, Tranq etc. Also if you are too ahead of enrage timer that means your 2nd phase is too short. Try to kill more waves as you will stack more debuff on boss and make final phase easier.

  7. #7
    We are running 4 and 3. We could definitely do 4 and 4. Everyone fought over doing 5 in the first wave (we might not be able to do 5), and when I suggested 4 and 4 my mage climbed down my throat and started laying eggs in my stomach.

  8. #8
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    We are running 4 and 3. We could definitely do 4 and 4. Everyone fought over doing 5 in the first wave (we might not be able to do 5), and when I suggested 4 and 4 my mage climbed down my throat and started laying eggs in my stomach.
    (Verain's my GM btw)

    I think we should do at least 4 and 4, but I don't think we really need more than that. I should do the math on at what point more stacks isn't worth the uptime on the boss just to confirm it though. People wanted to do 4 and 3 because we knew we had the dps and healers wanted to try to see if that made it easier, but the problem isn't healing the add waves its healing the final burn.

    Killing 4 waves causes 5 stacks of Draw Power (because it counts the cast you let through), each stack increases damage dealt by 10%, if you kill 4 and 4 this is 100%. If our raid dps on Elegon is say, 700k (6 dps at 100k, 2 tanks at 50k) with the aura but not with Draw Power stacks, then its 1,050,000 raid DPS after the first 5 stacks (4 waves). After the subsequent 5 stacks (waves 5-8) it's at least 1,400,000 raid DPS - since we're trying to decide whether it's worth staying on Elegon or burning another add wave, let's say another add wave takes 12 seconds of time we could put into Elegon instead, or if we kill the adds increases our damage by 10% more.

    12 seconds of 1,400,000 DPS is 16,800,000 (6% of Elegon's total health), alternately we can do another add wave in which case our dps has another draw power stack for the remainder of the boss, let's say 35% of his hp or about 100M hp. Another draw power stack bring it to 110% * 700k = 1,470,000 raid DPS - so we're only gaining 70k raid dps for the remainder of the fight versus the risk of damage during the 5th stack and the loss of 16.8M damage if we just punched the boss during that time. Ignoring the risk of damage during the 5th stack for the moment.

    16.8M damage / 70K DPS is 240 seconds that it would take for killing the 9th wave to be worthwhile given our raid dps. So if the boss survived more than 4 minutes of our raids DPS after the 11th Draw Power stack, it would be a dps gain to go to 11. But after that 11th stack we go into the empyreal pillars phase (no boss dps) - and then aoe some adds (mild boss dps) - and then burn the boss: at this point he only has like 60 seconds to live right? So that additional 70k dps from the 11th stack is only getting us 4.2 million damage versus the 12 second burn giving us 16.8 million damage.

    But actually, we'd have a slightly shorter (20% shorter) burn phase after the 11th stack too, since we know we wouldn't be going for a 12th stack. So keeping the 12 seconds burn guess from above, 12 * 0.8 = 9.6 seconds of 11 stack raid dps which is 1,470,000 - so 14,112,000. So Actually:

    4.2M + 14.1M = 18.3M > 16.8M

    So, we're pretty close to balanced there - to get much more complex I should really be doing this properly in excel or something because my napkin is pretty full here and my simplification is beginning to effect the outcome - but it looks like 11 stacks of Draw Power (9 waves) is still worthwhile, but 12 stacks probably isn't I'd guess.

    All purely from a dps standpoint and that won't be true for all raids given the base raid dps is going to be different based on comp and players and such - but at least we know whether it's worthwhile or not!
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2012-10-12 at 08:35 PM.
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  9. #9
    Why aren't you guys resetting your stacks during burn phase?

    You say you're 'ahead' of the enrage timers, make it easier on your healers and have your range reset their stacks often (they can easily reset it within a GCD, instant cast). Then have your melee reset at least once during the burn phase.

    Also, I would go 6 -> 4 stacks, that buff is the core mechanic of the fight. Getting 6 stacks can be easily done with personal DPS CDs and DPS potion. That 6 stacks helps tremendously with getting the boss down.

    You're over thinking it with your math. Just have everyone play well and not die, reset debuffs, and get the boss to have 5-5 or 6-4 stacks.

    edit: there's no way two healers can keep up the raid if you guys are not resetting your debuff during burn phase. With the gear we have now, we can't skip boss mechanics like that.

  10. #10
    Blademaster mily's Avatar
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    We are doing 7 and 5 on 25 man. Our burn phase dont last more then 20 sec. And for all of you sugesting stack resets, are you awaew there is elctric storm outside the inner ring, wich deals crap loads of dmg, when the burn phase starts?

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    105,000 DPS * 50% more healing aura = 157,000 HPS
    Your math seems solid, and i'd considered something similar myself earlier, however I did realize one problem with that. Our healers are bursting to 300k during that phase..... and dmg to almost 500k meaning that disc is gonna be a bit behind, even if it is super easy to do and you'll obviously get a solid amount of dmg extra in there.

    From what I can see, this would not be worth it to put a full time healer (1 of 2 in a 10 man) However, if you can afford one of your lowest dps to swap with an atonement disc, this could be a reasonable way to make the healing a little easier, especially in the melee group, without sacrificing too much dmg.

    We ran without disc, 6 healing 25 man. Ranged dropped stacks at about 8 for our kill, we did 4 waves, then 3.
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/wopj9...=14753&e=15311

    Quote Originally Posted by mily View Post
    We are doing 7 and 5 on 25 man. Our burn phase dont last more then 20 sec. And for all of you sugesting stack resets, are you awaew there is elctric storm outside the inner ring, wich deals crap loads of dmg, when the burn phase starts?
    If you're going to reset early enough, it really doesn't hit that hard, we're doing 6+ stacks for one reset, finishing the fight at about 12 stacks. If you pop a personal cd (I used dispersion, it exponentially reduces the damage you take during the next 20 seconds)
    Last edited by Nestar; 2012-10-13 at 03:25 PM.

  12. #12
    Do 4-4. Reset stacks on last phase. Burn the boss. Have the dps do their defensive/healing abilities. Should do the trick.

    It worked for us and we have poor dps/tanks. To me, your problem seems to be a last phase that lasts too long.

  13. #13
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    >< We figured out what we were doing wrong. So, your supposed to kill the pillars at the same time - otherwise he gets a huge haste buff and spams adds at you - we were killing them in sequence, which resulted in us going into the final phase with about 40-60 adds (yes, even though we were killing some before the floor came back). The haste buff also seems to make his raid damage go faster - so doing it incorrectly means your also taking like 2.5x the raid damage of the already insane phase - so with that solved we killed it a couple attempts later (a couple because the elevator boss is apparently new to people!) ^^
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  14. #14
    Blademaster mily's Avatar
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    Just to report, after latest buff to our class, or perhaps it's better to say fix, Disc specc is perfectily valiable for this fight in 25 man. Spirit shell is stunning for Total Anhilation, to point where you acctualy think we are OP. Dont forget to combine it with Archangel/Power infusion/Inner Focus. Also you can, Smite/holy fire your way trough 2nd phase and actualy outdps some classes on Sparks. Use Phase 3 for Potion of focus/Hymn of hope.

    I used Purify and forced other healers to disspell too, as using Mass dispell on CD would get me oom quickly.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by mily View Post
    We are doing 7 and 5 on 25 man. Our burn phase dont last more then 20 sec. And for all of you sugesting stack resets, are you awaew there is elctric storm outside the inner ring, wich deals crap loads of dmg, when the burn phase starts?
    you just need to step out and in, takes barely a second and if done right results in no extra damage

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