Jaina and Dalaran in 5.1 [Heavy lore spoilers]

[corebit]

I've read tides of war, and seen how Jaina did infact go batshit crazy. I even agreed that well her rage and hatred was justifed for what Garrosh did, her sudden intolerance and ruthlessness brought on by the book just makes her into a clone of how Varian was to begin with in the story, and I disliked his character just as much as i dislike Jaina she is now, her throwing around her weight against the sunreavers when they faught with the kirin tor, now because of her personal grudge against Garrosh, is more demeaning to the story then anything I can say about it.

And I am honest to the story, just because it conflicts with your view on it doesn't make mine wrong. I'm pissed off they took Jaina down this road because of trying to satisfy the feckless whiners crying for war on the threads. Now she's no better then Varian use to be, and thats a sad turn of events, so I'll have something to say against it. A character wasted for the most demeaning people who play wow and don't understand or care for the characters at all.

I am also on the sunreavers side in this, Jaina making her personal war against the sunreavers because she doesn't have the balls to take care of Garrosh herself, the most powerful f**ing mage on azeroth, and she doesn't just teleport into orgrimmar (like she use to with Thrall) and one shot Garrosh, wtf is that about?

Jaina sacrificed everything, including her own father, to make peace with the Horde.
As a reward for that, she gets to see Theramore nuked in front of her eyes.

Even the most reasonable, logical and calm of people change their view dramatically when confronted with what Jaina faced.
She now directs her hatred to the entire Horde, Sunreavers included, so your statement that her anger is just: "personal grudge against Garrosh" is incorrect.

[iscalio]

Trassk: If you really stick to describing her as "batshit crazy" then the devaluation of words I warned about has apparently already happened. "Batshit crazy" can properly describe a character like the Joker, not Jaina (nor Varian or Garrosh for that matter).

Also, blaming "feckless whiners" for all aspects of the story you do not like is baseless and unproductive commentary. One might call it whining, in fact. And Jaina is not waging a "personal war" against the Sunreavers, she is waging the Aliiance war against Garrosh's Horde. The Sunreavers are antagonized by association with those among them who betrayed Dalaran vows of neutrality and assisted Garrosh's war effort.

[melak]

Trassk: If you really stick to describing her as "batshit crazy" then the devaluation of words I warned about has apparently already happened. "Batshit crazy" can properly describe a character like the Joker, not Jaina (nor Varian or Garrosh for that matter).

Also, blaming "feckless whiners" for all aspects of the story you do not like is baseless and unproductive commentary. One might call it whining, in fact. And Jaina is not waging a "personal war" against the Sunreavers, she is waging the Aliiance war against Garrosh's Horde. The Sunreavers are antagonized by association with those among them who betrayed Dalaran vows of neutrality and assisted Garrosh's war effort.

this!

/10 chars

[Joen]

I was wondering, perhaps the new Dalaran will move into te big crater in Stormwind?

[Zuben]

'Innocent until proven guilty' is a bit hard to enforce if the risk that while 'proof is being found', more horde troops could secretly be utilizing portals to get where they want.

It's not like the Sunreavers actively fought Garrosh's command to use the portals to assault the alliance.

And well, if they were threatened into letting it go, then it's still partially their fault for letting their allegiances hinder the fact that they are a part of a neutral city and organization. (until now neutral, I mean)

Sure, but it doesn't change the fact Jaina is going against the ideals that used to separate her from the likes of Garrosh. Things become a lot simpler when you throw ethics and justice out the window, but Sylvanas and Garrosh have received insane amount of criticism for doing that, I don't see why it should be different for Jaina.

[7seti]

Sure, but it doesn't change the fact Jaina is going against the ideals that used to separate her from the likes of Garrosh. Things become a lot simpler when you throw ethics and justice out the window, but Sylvanas and Garrosh have received insane amount of criticism for doing that, I don't see why it should be different for Jaina.

That's basically why she's doing it: the Horde did it first. When your enemies start fighting dirty, sometimes you have to do the same. Remember that the Horde is using dubious tactics in the name of conquest, but the Alliance is just fighting for it's own survival. And so far they've been losing, badly. If they don't start taking a harder line against the Horde, they face enslavement or extinction.

[Zuben]

That's basically why she's doing it: the Horde did it first. When your enemies start fighting dirty, sometimes you have to do the same. Remember that the Horde is using dubious tactics in the name of conquest, but the Alliance is just fighting for it's own survival. And so far they've been losing, badly. If they don't start taking a harder line against the Horde, they face enslavement or extinction.

Still doesn't excuse Jaina for her actions. Look, I'm not arguing what she's doing is unadvisable. I'm saying she shouldn't be defended if you think what Sylvanas does is wrong. That would be a double standard.

[LordofBones]

Man, all this qq about Jaina reminds me of the whining about Varian when he first showed up in Stormwind Keep.

Also, the Sunreavers, whether intentionally or by neglect, violated the neutrality of the Kirin Tor.

Again.

[MMOTotal]

I was wondering, perhaps the new Dalaran will move into te big crater in Stormwind?

That would be a great idea if that happened, or possibly above the ruins of Theramore.

[Trassk]

Trassk: If you really stick to describing her as "batshit crazy" then the devaluation of words I warned about has apparently already happened. "Batshit crazy" can properly describe a character like the Joker, not Jaina (nor Varian or Garrosh for that matter).

Also, blaming "feckless whiners" for all aspects of the story you do not like is baseless and unproductive commentary. One might call it whining, in fact. And Jaina is not waging a "personal war" against the Sunreavers, she is waging the Aliiance war against Garrosh's Horde. The Sunreavers are antagonized by association with those among them who betrayed Dalaran vows of neutrality and assisted Garrosh's war effort.

I know you thin your trying to sound reasonable, but to be it just sounds like an alliance fan who tilters towards that way of seeing things. Even if you think it sounds logical to blame everything on the horde because of what happened in theramore, should others suffer for the actions of one?

This is where logic and common sense differ.

[Bulletnips]

This patch needs more Sylvanas and Rexxar.

[Mehrunes]

You're missing the point. The point is that Aethas allowed the Horde to use Dalaran as a mobile base without Jaina's knowledge, betraying the city's neturality in the faction war. He knew full well what the Horde cost Jaina, he was there when she gave her acceptance speech, and still he sided with the Horde over the Kirin Tor. If Aethas were to tell Garrosh 'No, you will not use Dalaran to get to Darnassus,' what's Garrosh gonna do? Declare war on a mobile city packed with some of the world's most powerful mages, at least one of whom has a personal reason to use the magical version of a KILL-SAT? Aethas made his choice to look the other way, and in doing so (Fear-driven or not), made it clear that his loyalties were with the Horde above the Kirin Tor.

So again, the Horde, rather than respect Dalaran's neutrality, drove them to the Alliance much like the Sentinels drove the blood elves to the Horde.

Difference being, Jaina was not involving herself in the war. She wasn't letting Varian use Dalaran to transport warmages and she wasn't using Dalaran as a mobile base to rain holy hell down on the Horde from above. Aethas, on the other hand, fully knowing what the Horde cost Jaina and knowing Jaina is the new head of the Council, allowed Garrosh to move troops through a city that officially had nothing to do with the war.

At the very least, Garrosh picked her side for her by betraying Dalaran's neutrality.

But Jaina did exactly the same thing. She allowed the Alliance to use her city-state as a naval base for the Alliance in their attack on the heart of the Horde (Durotar, border of Mulgore). She even build a new road connecting Theramore directly to Barrens' entrance to save few hours of going around. If she were to refuse Varian back then, what would he do? Declare war on Theramore and lay siege to the city? With Garrosh ready to attack him from behind in such a situation?

So how exactly was Jaina not involving herself in the war? I say she was involving herself in the war long before Aethas did. And unlike Aethas, who could as well not be the one behind this, Jaina fully knew what was going on in Theramore. The difference was of course that Theramore was always leaning towards Alliance, but before MoP Jaina was also against the war, and a friend to Thrall (which was really poor writing to me). Jaina's choice wasn't simply looking the other way, it was embracing the Alliance and granting them a supply route and a military base. She made it clear her loyalties were with the Alliance above all long before she was even made the leader Council of the Six (but she was Kirin Tor member all that time) and even before she took the anti-Horde stance.

And it's still not Horde's doing that drove Dalaran into Alliance's arms. The council decided to stay neutral after Theramore's destruction. Why would covert operation in Darnassus change their stance on that? Not only is the situation much less drastic that the annihilation of an entire city, but the city in question is of lower significance to the Kirin Tor. Same applies to assumed death of Anduin. It's one teenager against who knows how many children in Theramore. And the Council of the Six decided on neutrality back then nonetheless.

Jaina is clearly abusing her powers as the leader of the Kirin Tor, the voice files suggest that. Most likely she is doing the purge only with the aid of Silver Covenant, but not the council.

Rommath should turn Quel'Danas into the new Horde mage base.

It is very likely. With Jaina kicking Sunreavers out of Dalaran, later putting those who refused to leave in Violet Hold and purging those who resist ("I purged the Horde out of Dalaran"), and the Silver Covenant backing her up, I believe Silvermoon will retaliate by kicking all High Elves from Quel'Danas. And they will begin war preparations afterwards. After all Jaina believes Aethas is responsible for Darnassus attack. Also, in Lor'themar scenario you infiltrate you most likely kill some Kirin Tor members. That would in turn convince Jaina even more of Aethas' "guilt". Would she just leave him be in her enraged state, or would she go Maiev-mode, turning her anger against Silvermoon for rescuing "the traitor" in the process? So many possibilities.

...And Garrosh talking all the time about MASTERING the Sha-powers instead of giving in to them, Holy Shit! If he truly succeeds he will be some badass end boss, but also confirms that he still is himself and not under control of some greater power, so no mind-control, influence shit, Hell yeah!!!!! (...unless he fails and succumbs to all of the different Sha at the same time....OMG that would be very, very bad for us, but again another "normal" character slain because of being mind-controlled, etc, that wouldn't be that great)

Maybe he will try to harness all six of the Sha (or seven if they do represent Y'Shaaraj's heads), and Y'Shaaraj shall be reborn. Garrosh fight will be Cho'Gall 2.0.

Let's see...

Varian declares war in Wrath...check.


So Alliance is at fault...where? If by we weren't being bestest buddies with the Horde then...yeah...we'll shoulder some responsibility.

Did you even read what you wrote?

f**k sake, if the horde loses dalaran, I want the alliance to lose a faction like the earthen ring.

oh right and what do the horde get in place of it? Are the sunreavers going to make a flying city to in there own defense against Jaina's now irrational war against the horde?

Knights of the Ebon Blade for the Horde! And Aecherus will be Dalaran's equivalent. Throughout WotLK Ebon Blade members were doing things the Forsaken way, they even compared themselves to Forsaken few times. They even arranged the forging of Shadowmourne, which was to mimic Frostmourne. They are morally ambiguous and follow the same "the end justifies the means" mentality as the Forsaken. I never understood why Varian didn't take any action, even severing ties with them, against those Ebon Blade members who didn't swear loyalty to the Alliance (the players) after Wrathgate. Both Forsaken and Ebon Blade are factions of free undead, both had similar origin and plans (destruction of Lich King and the Scarlet Crusade/Onslaught), morality and ways of doing things. And not even a hint of distrust towards Knights has been shown.


But now it can finally change. After all Sylvanas was said to get some spotlight in MoP as well, and she is unifying Lordaeron under her rule. The major thing in her way is the fact that Darion is a wuss ever since his father was freed, and now he, Alexandros'spirit and Tirion have threesomes on daily basis.

It's an Alliance capital city to begin with.

Not that I agree with making Horde players not able to use the Dalaran in Northrend, but there should be a 'present' version back in the Eastern Kingdoms.

Why in Eastern Kingdoms and not on the current front in southern Pandaria? And where exactly in Eastern Kingdoms? Southern continent is mostly Alliance controlled, but it would make no sense to move Dalaran there. So Lordaeron then? That's what "back" would suggest in literal sense after all. In Hillsbrad where it once was, surrounded by all sides by the Forsaken, with Quel'Thalas connected by a portal to Undercity. Sounds like a perfect spot. With Alliance's focus turned on Pandaria a city-state with internal turmoil would last long in the middle of enemy territory. Or maybe move it above Silvermoon itself, to hunt down Aethas?

Jaina may be the most powerful living mage on Azeroth, but Blood Elves are a race of people attuned to magic. After what Jaina did to Sunreavers, with Silver Covenant joining her, Lor'themar will most likely expel all High Elves from Quel'Denas in retaliation. Especially since he has some animosity towards Vereesa. And thanks to her action the rift between Sunreavers and Rommath and his magisters is basically gone now. Blood Elves are now more united than ever. Maybe with exception of the time when Kael'thas renamed them Blood Elves, but that was also the time when they were weakened by the Scourge. Now they are over Kael'thas' betrayal, they rebuild their city, Amani trolls are weakened after Zul'Jin's and Drakara's deaths and the Sunwell is reignited. While Jaina most likely faces opposition from within Kirin Tor's council itself. I can't see Khadgar and Modera approving the shift towards Alliance, if they voted against it after Theramore's fall.

Add the Forsaken to the mix, and the fact that Alliance forces are focused on Pandaria's front, and Jaina simply won't be able to barge in Lordaeron on her own. Moving Dalaran to Eastern Kingdom's right now would make no sense. Besides, even if she were to hunt Aethas down, her main target is still Garrosh. She's more likely to try with Orgrimmar again.

But I do agree that bringing another version of Dalaran (other than the one used in Lor'themar's scenario) would be a really interesting thing. Maybe not in 5.1 yet, but later on. It would nicely change the dynamic of the factions. But moving it back to Lordaeron right now would be a really bad move on Jaina's part.

The Horde exists because they made a bad deal with the Legion and blew up their homeworld.

And the Alliance exist because Night Elves made a bad deal with the Legion, which eventually lead to them blowing up half of their homeworld. Sorry, but this argument can be used against both factions.




I wonder what happened to Anduin. It could be blizz trolling us again, after all the 5.2 part of legendary chain is called Two Princes (or something like that). Or the achievement was the red herring and Anduin will indeed die. After all it's Garrosh "killing" him, isn't it? And he isn't the one to write a letter to Varian saying "I killed your son. Probably. Maybe. I'm not really sure." And the Alliance knows of Anduin's "death". Garrosh would more likely put his head on a spike, arm ballista with that spike, and shoot it into Varian's face. Either that, or he would make a voodoo priest shrink the head so he could wear it as a necklace.

Maybe Lor'themar will finally cave in to Halduron and Rommath and accept the crown? Kael'thas was also a prince, not a king. That would be epic turn of events.

Another intriguing part is the old alliances mentioned by Lor'themar. The Alliance is unlikely, as he bitches about them a moment before. Naga are active again, but under the leadership of Azshara now, who also reappeared in the lore, and they are doing something to Neptulon. The Legion is extremely unlikely, as it just devastated Quel'danas a few years earlier. Remnants of the Illidari? There is some activity in the Black Temple in 5.1, although related to warlocks, and apparently to Wrathion.

It could also be Shattered Sun Offensive/Sha'Tar. But since neither of these factions (I'm not sure if SSO still exists) would ally with Silvermoon-Horde member, so it would require Silvermoon out of the Horde. Which is unlikely to happen. Maybe the Scryers alone? With Sunreavers being added to Rommnath's magisters Lor'themar is unifying his people. Scryers would fit in this movement nicely.

Or it could be Forsaken. After all the relations between Quel'thalas and Undercity were rather cold lately, and Theron simply wants those relations to go back to TBC status.

[7seti]

And the Alliance exist because Night Elves made a bad deal with the Legion, which eventually lead to them blowing up half of their homeworld. Sorry, but this argument can be used against both factions.

Nope. The Alliance existed before the Night Elves joined it. The Horde would never have existed without the orcish invasion.

Knights of the Ebon Blade for the Horde! And Aecherus will be Dalaran's equivalent.

With Sylvanas capturing and torturing/brainwashing one of the Ebon Blade's highest ranking death knights? I really think not.

I don't see why there has to be a "horde equivalent." Unless the Alliance gets to blow up a horde city as well.

[Haajib]

Kadghar is still technicaly a council member of the kirin tor, and because he is somewhat bonded with A´dal is the Naaru going to aid the alliance aswell?

[iscalio]

I know you thin your trying to sound reasonable, but to be it just sounds like an alliance fan who tilters towards that way of seeing things. Even if you think it sounds logical to blame everything on the horde because of what happened in theramore, should others suffer for the actions of one?

This is where logic and common sense differ.

Where are you getting that from? I do not intend to defend Jaina's actions, nor did I ever talk about Theramore. I just dislike your hyperboles ("batshit crazy") and your personal attacks ("the most demeaning people who play wow"). I think it is not helping your arguments, which at their core are often reasonable.

But I think I overestimated you. I apologize.

[Falrinn]

Kadghar is still technicaly a council member of the kirin tor, and because he is somewhat bonded with A´dal is the Naaru going to aid the alliance aswell?

I doubt the Naaru will directly involve themselves in the Horde/Alliance conflict. At most I could see them provide assistance to both the Alliance and the rebel Horde to try to force Garrosh out of the picture quickly so Azeroth can properly prepare for the coming war with the Legion.

Before then we could see more previously neutral Draenei show up under the Exodar's authority, but there is already plenty of precedent for that and no need to involve Kadghar in the process.

[Combatbulter]

Jaina may be the most powerful living mage on Azeroth, but Blood Elves are a race of people attuned to magic. After what Jaina did to Sunreavers, with Silver Covenant joining her, Lor'themar will most likely expel all High Elves from Quel'Denas in retaliation. Especially since he has some animosity towards Vereesa. And thanks to her action the rift between Sunreavers and Rommath and his magisters is basically gone now. Blood Elves are now more united than ever. Maybe with exception of the time when Kael'thas renamed them Blood Elves, but that was also the time when they were weakened by the Scourge. Now they are over Kael'thas' betrayal, they rebuild their city, Amani trolls are weakened after Zul'Jin's and Drakara's deaths and the Sunwell is reignited. While Jaina most likely faces opposition from within Kirin Tor's council itself. I can't see Khadgar and Modera approving the shift towards Alliance, if they voted against it after Theramore's fall.

First Jaina isn't the most powerful mage on Azeroth, she is a master mage but not the most powerful and yes the High elves will most likely pay dearly, the blood elves might sever their connection to the new sunwell, meaning they will sufffer from withdrawal once more. They could even pull a Kaldorei move, expelling the High elves for good including their descendants.

[Callei]

Sure, but it doesn't change the fact Jaina is going against the ideals that used to separate her from the likes of Garrosh. Things become a lot simpler when you throw ethics and justice out the window, but Sylvanas and Garrosh have received insane amount of criticism for doing that, I don't see why it should be different for Jaina.

The Sunreavers looked the other way while the Horde used a neutral city that has stated it will have nothing to do with the faction war to get troops positioned for attacks on Alliance cities. The Horde betrayed Dalaran's neutrality, and Jaina learns the Sunreavers looked the other way.

That's called digging your own grave.

[LordofBones]

But Jaina did exactly the same thing. She allowed the Alliance to use her city-state as a naval base for the Alliance in their attack on the heart of the Horde (Durotar, border of Mulgore). She even build a new road connecting Theramore directly to Barrens' entrance to save few hours of going around. If she were to refuse Varian back then, what would he do? Declare war on Theramore and lay siege to the city? With Garrosh ready to attack him from behind in such a situation?

So how exactly was Jaina not involving herself in the war? I say she was involving herself in the war long before Aethas did. And unlike Aethas, who could as well not be the one behind this, Jaina fully knew what was going on in Theramore. The difference was of course that Theramore was always leaning towards Alliance, but before MoP Jaina was also against the war, and a friend to Thrall (which was really poor writing to me). Jaina's choice wasn't simply looking the other way, it was embracing the Alliance and granting them a supply route and a military base. She made it clear her loyalties were with the Alliance above all long before she was even made the leader Council of the Six (but she was Kirin Tor member all that time) and even before she took the anti-Horde stance.

And it's still not Horde's doing that drove Dalaran into Alliance's arms. The council decided to stay neutral after Theramore's destruction. Why would covert operation in Darnassus change their stance on that? Not only is the situation much less drastic that the annihilation of an entire city, but the city in question is of lower significance to the Kirin Tor. Same applies to assumed death of Anduin. It's one teenager against who knows how many children in Theramore. And the Council of the Six decided on neutrality back then nonetheless.

Jaina is clearly abusing her powers as the leader of the Kirin Tor, the voice files suggest that. Most likely she is doing the purge only with the aid of Silver Covenant, but not the council.

See, the thing is that the Horde used Dalaran as the middle-man in their strike against Darnassus. It's sort of like launching attacks from Sweden without the knowledge of the Swedish government. What really damns Aethas and the Sunreavers is that they're the most likely culprits considering their sympathies, and that the Sunreavers aren't exactly mewling little lambs considering it was a Sunreaver working under the aegis of that particular group who partcipated in the destruction of Theramore.

And Theramore is an Alliance city; according to lore the Horde struck Ashenvale first, which lead to Theramore's retaliation. I'm not sure what exactly you want Jaina to do here; a fellow Alliance state is under attack and her country's the only Alliance port, plus Warchief Warmonger Orc has a manifest destiny thing going on re: Kalimdor.

[Berethos08]

Jaina's choice wasn't simply looking the other way, it was embracing the Alliance and granting them a supply route and a military base. She made it clear her loyalties were with the Alliance above all long before she was even made the leader Council of the Six (but she was Kirin Tor member all that time) and even before she took the anti-Horde stance.

Actually, Tides of War indicates she had not been a part of the Kirin Tor since they started rebuilding after Antonidas fell and Archimonde attacked. In fact, she outright states it in a conversation with Rhonin:

"Nothing is wrong with me, Jaina. Merely - well, I have a concern that I'd like to share with you."

She frowned, a small crease appearing between her brows, and put the glass down. "Me? Why me? I'm not one of the Council of Six. I'm not even a member of the Kirin Tor anymore." Once, she had been, working closely with her master, Antonidas. But after the Third War, when the scattered members of the Kirin Tor had reformed, it hadn't felt the same to her.