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  1. #1041
    Over 9000! Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reppu Kishin View Post
    I actually buckled down and made an account simply to put out some of the nonsense. At least from this post.

    Jaina's 'neutrality' with the Kirin Tor was strictly limited when she had taken the reigns over Theramore. In fact, her staunch support of the Alliance greatly outweighed her 'stance' with the Kirin Tor, including during Wrath of the Lich King. Her own self-imposed neutrality is what made her continue to support Alliance and Horde relations, not her previous tutoring within the Kirin Tor.

    While Jaina very much, during Wrath of the Lich King, was a member of the Kirin Tor as she was the Alliance, she was still known as the ruler of Theramore, first and foremost. Which is exactly why during Wrath of the Lich King, she lead Alliance operations, NOT Kirin Tor operations. The fact she was a neutral leader of the Alliance was why she was respected by the Horde, and the Kirin Tor.

    None of her operations ever conflicted with the Horde.

    Come Cataclysm, and Theramore being more of an actual supply base and less of a neutral nation. This? Still has nothing to do with Jaina of the Kirin Tor. After Wrath of the Lich King, Jaina returned to Theramore full time and continued operations as normal. The escalation between the Horde and the Alliance had nothing to do with Jaina of the Kirin Tor. This is key here.

    Speculation is all that is given if Theramore was behind any of the major operations on Kalimdor (as some will claim Camp Taurajo was purely a Theramore job), unless I'm missing key text here, that's only speculation. And irrelevant, ultimately, to the point I am responding to.

    Jaina's involvement in the defense of Theramore was in defense of her home, her people, and of the Alliance. This? Had absolutely no bearing on the Kirin Tor. If ANY individual was guilty of breaking neutrality agreements of the Kirin Tor, it was Rhonin when he went to assist in the defense of Theramore. Not Jaina. And even then, Rhonin was there purely to defend and evacuate. Again, unless I'm missing key text, I do not believe Rhonin ever went on the counter-offensive, and was mostly there to try to prevent devastation and loss of life.

    Since Theramore, Jaina has been struggling to remain neutral. The fact that Dalaran was used by the Horde to attack an Alliance city was the Horde breaking the neutrality agreement. Again, not Jaina. One could argue Jaina's attempt to drown out Orgrimmar was a breech of neutrality, but that was still Jaina Proudmoore of the Alliance, not Jaina Proudmoore, Member and Head of the Council of Six of the Kirin Tor.

    Any claims of Jaina breaking neutrality for purging the Sunreavers for their (double) involvement in two Pro-Horde, Anti-Alliance movements? Be they deep or just a sect of betrayers? Is enough for ANY real or fantasy organization to cut ties then. If the Sunreavers were truly as innocent as they claimed, they should have let themselves be locked up until a proper investigation was put forth. Jaina is not a monster, despite as much as some people claim. Her terms were clear. But if the Sunreavers were adamant to have their cake and eat it too, they needed to be thrown out. Aethas couldn't control his own people (Unless he WAS in control of the deception), and that makes for not only a poor leader, but a poor member of the Six.

    End of the Day: The Horde broke the neutrality agreement first and foremost by using Dalaran as a means of unleashing attacks on Alliance cities. Unless you argue Rhonin trying to evacuate and prevent the utter DEVASTATION of Theramore was breaking the neutrality agreement first, but that's a stretch at best. More like helping his wife, who is a staunch Alliance member.

    So, again, unless I am missing something? I'm getting this odd feeling that you aren't illogical, but ignorant.

    Thank you for my first post.
    1: Jaina had left the Kirin tor otherwise she wouldn't have had to rejoin them in Tides of war.

    2:Jaina defended Darnassus killing intruders before a sunreaver shows the horde how to bypass those defences, so Jaina punishs the sunreavers for breaking neutrality, which she did just prior.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragemv View Post
    I hade it, fanboy in so many degree, HOW did jaina breake the neutrality? When the horde stole the forkuseing isle from dalaran? When they used that to nuke her city and by that killing Rhonning the leader of Dalaran? her friend. Or was it when the horde used the neutrality of the sunreabers from the horde to teleport to darnassus?
    Tell ME WHERE did SHE break the neutrality ? You go saying BS about how she did it, BUT where, really? Fact is horde stole the forkusing isle from dalaran, they nuked her city and killed the leader of dalaran with it(because of the mana bomb) rhonning was there and he died. The Horde used the neutrality of dalaran to sneak soilders into darnassus. it was first after that she started to attack the sunreavers
    Oh boy first the focusing Iris is now in Dalaran, the horde took it from the blue Dragonflight.

    Rhonin himself vouched for the Thalen and Aethas vote made it possible for Jaina to become the leading member of the six.

    She broke the neutrality in Darnassus she had the city in lock down, disposing of every charlatan that tried to slip through and it seems a sunreaver helped to bypass those defences.

    It is fun that you call me fanboy, even though I stated several times in this thread that she made the right decision, was it a biased one of course it was, but still right. But as it seems you were too lazy to read most of the thread and decided to make an ignorant poorly thought through post, if you want a discussion you should get your facts straight.
    Last edited by Combatbulter; 2012-10-16 at 02:25 PM.
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  2. #1042
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    Maybe it's just me but the Kirin Tor's allegiance seems at times very inconsistent.

    During Vanilla WoW Dalaran seemed to be a part of the Alliance due to all the quests revolving around the crater and a few other quests in Hillsbrad/Alterac.

    Then Wrath came about and we had them as a neutral. Yet they had Blood Elves amongst their ranks which would indicate they had chosen to side with the Alliance prior to Wrath which obviously isn't the case as they still hold some semblance of loyalty to the Horde. Rhonin also admitted that he still loyal to the Alliance during Night Of The Dragon, not to mention the initial battle to simply allow Horde into Dalaran.
    The rest is just bleh.

    What strikes me though as odd is Ambermill has been completely forgotten about, which shows the Kirin Tor aiding the Alliance while also having their mages and an archmage turned into Forsaken.
    Last edited by Scummer; 2012-10-16 at 02:23 PM.

  3. #1043
    Oh crapples, looks like Tyrande done snapped!

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  4. #1044
    Over 9000! Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    Maybe it's just me but the Kirin Tor's allegiance seems at times very inconsistent.

    During Vanilla WoW Dalaran seemed to be a part of the Alliance due to all the quests revolving around the crater and a few other quests in Hillsbrad/Alterac.

    Then Wrath came about and we had them as a neutral. Yet they had Blood Elves amongst their ranks which would indicate they had chosen to side with the Alliance prior to Wrath which obviously isn't the case as they still hold some semblance of loyalty to the Horde. Rhonin also admitted that he still loyal to the Alliance during Night Of The Dragon, not to mention the initial battle to simply allow Horde into Dalaran.
    The rest is just bleh.

    What strikes me though as odd is Ambermill has been completely forgotten about, which shows the Kirin Tor aiding the Alliance while also having their mages and an archmage turned into Forsaken.
    My main guess why they accepted the blood elves into the city is they needed their help in the nexus war and the elves wanted something in return, like access to all their data and dalaran as a neutral base of operation.

    Yeah Ambermill really is strange either they severed ties with Dalaran at some point, which is very unlikely or someone screwed up big time, hasn't anyone asked a lore dev about it?
    Last edited by Combatbulter; 2012-10-16 at 02:31 PM.
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  5. #1045
    New Kid Zaelsino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Yeah Ambermill really is strange either they severed ties with Dalaran at some point, which is very unlikely or someone screwed up big time, hasn't anyone asked a lore dev about it?
    Red Shirt Guy asked Metzen, who blamed it on on the design team "not knowing that Dalaran was supposed to be neutral."

    Well, not that it much matters now, I suppose.

  6. #1046
    Over 9000! Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaelsino View Post
    Red Shirt Guy asked Metzen, who blamed it on on the design team "not knowing that Dalaran was supposed to be neutral."

    Well, not that it much matters now, I suppose.
    Is that 100% certain? I disregarded it because I thought it was a rumor.
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  7. #1047
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    1: Jaina had left the Kirin tor otherwise she wouldn't have had to rejoin them in Tides of war.

    2:Jaina defended Darnassus killing intruders before a sunreaver shows the horde how to bypass those defences, so Jaina punishs the sunreavers for breaking neutrality, which she did just prior.
    Re 2: Neutrality was broken first in Theramore by a Sunreaver(s). If anything, 2 is an Eye for an Eye. Now everyone is blind.

    Still, this does not make Jaina a hypocrite in the least. Because the issue is of using Dalaran and the resources of the Kirin Tor as a whole to help one side of the war. Jaina stopping a Horde invasion force is not the Kirin Tor or Dalaran being used in such a manner.

    At that point, it is well known Jaina is Anti-Garrosh, but not strictly Anti-Horde. She believes peace will only be capable of existing if Garrosh is put down. Since neutrality and peace is Dalaran's creed these days, this is not exactly a bad way of thinking. This does not mean Jaina has ever used Dalaran as a means of attacking Garrosh directly. The Sunreavers/Horde did the opposite by using Dalaran and the resources of the Kirin Tor to attack Darnassus.

    So, no. Again, Jaina did not break neutrality first. The Sunreavers did in Theramore. Jaina representing herself to aid the Alliance but leaving Dalaran and the Kirin Tor resources out, ultimately, is not breaking neutrality. As much as Blood Elf Logic dictates One Individual Represents Everyone Else AKA Garithos was the whole Alliance, that is not how 'reality' works.

    If Jaina sees a Garrosh Loyalist, they're dead. In the name of peace, Garrosh must be put down. And that's a fact. And now more so than ever, Jaina remains Anti-Garrosh, NOT Anti-Horde.

  8. #1048
    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    Maybe it's just me but the Kirin Tor's allegiance seems at times very inconsistent.

    During Vanilla WoW Dalaran seemed to be a part of the Alliance due to all the quests revolving around the crater and a few other quests in Hillsbrad/Alterac.

    Then Wrath came about and we had them as a neutral. Yet they had Blood Elves amongst their ranks which would indicate they had chosen to side with the Alliance prior to Wrath which obviously isn't the case as they still hold some semblance of loyalty to the Horde. Rhonin also admitted that he still loyal to the Alliance during Night Of The Dragon, not to mention the initial battle to simply allow Horde into Dalaran.
    The rest is just bleh.

    What strikes me though as odd is Ambermill has been completely forgotten about, which shows the Kirin Tor aiding the Alliance while also having their mages and an archmage turned into Forsaken.
    I think during one of those "ask the lore guys" Q&A sessions, it was claimed that the Ambermill mages were an unaffiliated splinter faction. I regard that as a weasel answer to avoid the whole "why allow the Horde in Dalaran" debate, as the old Ambermill NPCs are in the Dalaran hospital:

    http://www.wowhead.com/npc=32653
    http://www.wowhead.com/npc=32650
    http://www.wowhead.com/npc=32651
    http://www.wowhead.com/npc=32652

    They also made no mention of the ones around the Dalaran Crater. Forsaken kill those guys too.

  9. #1049
    New Kid Zaelsino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Is that 100% certain? I disregarded it because I thought it was a rumor.
    Yeah, he posted it on SoL quite a while ago. It's an off-the-record kind of deal, but eh.

    How they can somehow forget a development that large (we had only just spent an entire expansion idling in Dalaran) is beyond me though. >.<

  10. #1050
    Over 9000! Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reppu Kishin View Post
    Re 2: Neutrality was broken first in Theramore by a Sunreaver(s). If anything, 2 is an Eye for an Eye. Now everyone is blind.

    Still, this does not make Jaina a hypocrite in the least. Because the issue is of using Dalaran and the resources of the Kirin Tor as a whole to help one side of the war. Jaina stopping a Horde invasion force is not the Kirin Tor or Dalaran being used in such a manner.

    At that point, it is well known Jaina is Anti-Garrosh, but not strictly Anti-Horde. She believes peace will only be capable of existing if Garrosh is put down. Since neutrality and peace is Dalaran's creed these days, this is not exactly a bad way of thinking. This does not mean Jaina has ever used Dalaran as a means of attacking Garrosh directly. The Sunreavers/Horde did the opposite by using Dalaran and the resources of the Kirin Tor to attack Darnassus.

    So, no. Again, Jaina did not break neutrality first. The Sunreavers did in Theramore. Jaina representing herself to aid the Alliance but leaving Dalaran and the Kirin Tor resources out, ultimately, is not breaking neutrality. As much as Blood Elf Logic dictates One Individual Represents Everyone Else AKA Garithos was the whole Alliance, that is not how 'reality' works.

    If Jaina sees a Garrosh Loyalist, they're dead. In the name of peace, Garrosh must be put down. And that's a fact. And now more so than ever, Jaina remains Anti-Garrosh, NOT Anti-Horde.

    Jaina isn't as level headed as she used to be and rightfully so,I quote "Once Horde always Horde". Man people really don't read all my posts, and than respond which is annoying, because I said before that both sides are ultimately to blame for this fiasco. Jaina is is hypocritical here no doubt and Lor'themar is condemnatory towards the alliance, both mainly because of past experiences.

    It doesn't really matter who started it in the first place, but people putting the blame entirely on one side, while entirely ignoring the other is foolish.
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  11. #1051
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaelsino View Post
    Red Shirt Guy asked Metzen, who blamed it on on the design team "not knowing that Dalaran was supposed to be neutral."

    Well, not that it much matters now, I suppose.
    It gives me the impressions Metzen is having less and less to do with the story these days and is just letting other story writers do everything now and just approves any old rubbish they give him.

  12. #1052
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaelsino View Post
    Yeah, he posted it on SoL quite a while ago. It's an off-the-record kind of deal, but eh.

    How they can somehow forget a development that large (we had only just spent an entire expansion idling in Dalaran) is beyond me though. >.<
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    It gives me the impressions Metzen is having less and less to do with the story these days and is just letting other story writers do everything now and just approves any old rubbish they give him.
    Yeah the universe grew and metzen himself can't have enough ideas for every quest line, my guess would be he is responsible for the direction, while the fine tuning is left to others, which would explain this "accident".
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  13. #1053
    Quote Originally Posted by Dybia View Post
    Hah! You think Garrosh wouldn't wipe out scores of his own horde to kill the alliance leaders gathered at Theramore? You think a little too highly of the bastard. His new little pet blackrock orc killed two high ranking commanders of the blood elf and forsaken forces because he thought they might have bad mouthed Garrosh behind his back. And everyone that was with them in the inn in Razor Hill.
    Nah, everyone knows AOE's dont hit outside the targetting circle. They just made sure it was *just* big enough to encircle the alliance buildings

  14. #1054
    Kosak should get some writing lessons. This is just pathetic... This ''war'' is just a bad soap opera. Both factions acting like complete morons...


  15. #1055
    The Lightbringer Zuben's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reppu Kishin View Post
    Re 2: Neutrality was broken first in Theramore by a Sunreaver(s). If anything, 2 is an Eye for an Eye. Now everyone is blind.

    Still, this does not make Jaina a hypocrite in the least. Because the issue is of using Dalaran and the resources of the Kirin Tor as a whole to help one side of the war. Jaina stopping a Horde invasion force is not the Kirin Tor or Dalaran being used in such a manner.

    At that point, it is well known Jaina is Anti-Garrosh, but not strictly Anti-Horde. She believes peace will only be capable of existing if Garrosh is put down. Since neutrality and peace is Dalaran's creed these days, this is not exactly a bad way of thinking. This does not mean Jaina has ever used Dalaran as a means of attacking Garrosh directly. The Sunreavers/Horde did the opposite by using Dalaran and the resources of the Kirin Tor to attack Darnassus.

    So, no. Again, Jaina did not break neutrality first. The Sunreavers did in Theramore. Jaina representing herself to aid the Alliance but leaving Dalaran and the Kirin Tor resources out, ultimately, is not breaking neutrality. As much as Blood Elf Logic dictates One Individual Represents Everyone Else AKA Garithos was the whole Alliance, that is not how 'reality' works.

    If Jaina sees a Garrosh Loyalist, they're dead. In the name of peace, Garrosh must be put down. And that's a fact. And now more so than ever, Jaina remains Anti-Garrosh, NOT Anti-Horde.
    So, when Jaina does something alone, she isn't representing the faction she's the leader of, but when Thalen does something alone, he represents the faction he's a minor member of? Riiight...

  16. #1056
    Quote Originally Posted by Zuben View Post
    So, when Jaina does something alone, she isn't representing the faction she's the leader of, but when Thalen does something alone, he represents the faction he's a minor member of? Riiight...

    Characters can act on their own without representing their faction. Again, example of Thrall protecting Org while leader of the ER. Thalen was passed off as a single rogue member, so blaming the entirety of the Sunreavers for his actions is unfounded.

    However if we receive clear ingame proof that he was not as alone in his opinions, then the integrity of the faction is thrown into doubt. And despite finger pointing, we've yet to see or even hear about the Silver Covenant taking direct action against the Horde at large. Thus far all they've is oppose the Sunreavers.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-16 at 04:18 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
    Kosak should get some writing lessons. This is just pathetic... This ''war'' is just a bad soap opera. Both factions acting like complete morons...
    Kinda like how America imprisoned people of German, Italian and Asiatic descent during WW2 and how the Germans made the mistake of letting Hitler take part in the battle planning.
    STRESS
    The confusion caused when one's mind
    overrides the body's basic
    desire to choke the living shit out of
    some jerk who desperately needs it

  17. #1057
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reppu Kishin View Post
    If Jaina sees a Garrosh Loyalist, they're dead. In the name of peace, Garrosh must be put down. And that's a fact. And now more so than ever, Jaina remains Anti-Garrosh, NOT Anti-Horde.
    Rofl
    "in the name of peace", does that not seem funny to you? You gonna kill people who are killing people to show just how much killing people is wrong?

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-16 at 04:34 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    It doesn't really matter who started it in the first place, but people putting the blame entirely on one side, while entirely ignoring the other is foolish.
    That happens in a faction based conflict.
    People always wanna make "their" side look uber-awsome while trying to demonize the "other" side as much as possible
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  18. #1058
    WoW MOP: Tyrande = (Major Spoilers)


  19. #1059
    If I recall correctly, Jaina was getting all horde out of dalaran, not just the sunreavers. She also handed the Kirin Tor to the Alliance. That isn't just Anti Garrosh, that's anti horde.

  20. #1060
    It's not neccisarily that 'the sunreavers broke neutrality' but that they went against the orders of the kirin tor. Even being neutral, the Kirin Tor came to defend Theramore, through Aethas's reasoning saying that doing nothing would implicitly be supporting Garrosh. We don't know if what Jaina was doing in Darnassus was a rogue thing or with the approval of the Kirin Tor. What the sunreaver agents did was clearly against the Kirin Tor. It's not that the sunreavers did something anti alliance, it's that they went against the will of the kirin tor in doing so.

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