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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    BECAUSE challenge modes don't reward you with gear. Dailes do. Challenge modes don't have gear because the developers thought it would make the whole experience feel to required and mandatory. BUT DAILIES AREN'T? It's a massive contradiction. I have options, run dailies. Everything else is simply going 20 in a 60 zone.
    Challenge mode also rewards you with some VP through the daily.

    And no, dailies are not required. For one, because you don't need to cap out your VP anyway, it's not 'required' for raiding nor PVP nor soloing. Two, because you choose to do them because you (of your own mindset) think that "quick = best". Nothing about "20 in 60" implies they're mandatory. Frankly, I could run a heroic in the time it takes me to do 12 quests.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    ....in an MMORPG, who the f are you competing with? When did MMORPGs become competitions?
    ...since ever?

    Does no one remember the race between D&T and Nihilium?

    Of course, it was a sham. Kel'thuzad despawned and bugged out and we lost a week of progression. Some world first, bleh.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matchu View Post
    Challenge mode also rewards you with some VP through the daily.

    And no, dailies are not required. For one, because you don't need to cap out your VP anyway, it's not 'required' for raiding nor PVP nor soloing. Two, because you choose to do them because you (of your own mindset) that "quick = best". Nothing about "20 in 60" implies they're mandatory. Frankly, I could run a heroic in the time it takes me to do 12 quests.
    A PITTANCE. NOBODY can answer the apparent contradiction in their statements. It is ludicrous to say that chellenge modes would feel required if gear was associated with them but dailies DONT. How ABSURD is this. Going 60 in the zone is required because it's the best possible path to do something. If going 20 was as rewarding then you could have a claim. Clearly it's not.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    It does indeed make you have to play more to stay competitive, and some people don't have the choice here. My guild is requiring raiders (like myself), to cap their valor and run their dailies in order to get rep/rep-related items so we can progress (3/6N). But that's simply because I'm in a progression raiding guild. For those not raiding and for those not participating in group activity outside of LFR, what does it matter? Who are you really competing against by not doing the dailies or capping your VP? There are tens of thousands of players per server...unless you're one of the top 100 or so, it doesn't really matter. No one else cares.
    Pretty much what the adorable penguin here said. The only people who HAVE to cap it is the people in "progression raiding guilds". Personally, my guild isn't all that strict, we just require your gear to be gemmed and such, and ofcourse for people to get atleast SOME VP per week, but the more hardcore ones need that edge that a capped VP and reps give you.


  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    A PITTANCE. NOBODY can answer the apparent contradiction in their statements. It is ludicrous to say that chellenge modes would feel required if gear was associated with them but dailies DONT. How ABSURD is this. Going 60 in the zone is required because it's the best possible path to do something. If going 20 was as rewarding then you could have a claim. Clearly it's not.
    Caps locking your adjectives and adverbs do not help get your point across. It just makes your post harder to raid.

    Yes, there is a best possible path to something. No one is arguing that.

    We are arguing that you are not forced to take that path. If you want to mozy along, you are welcome to. However, don't expect to get the same rewards.

    This make come as a shock to you but....yes, games reward you for spending more time and doing more things in them.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    A PITTANCE. NOBODY can answer the apparent contradiction in their statements. It is ludicrous to say that chellenge modes would feel required if gear was associated with them but dailies DONT. How ABSURD is this. Going 60 in the zone is required because it's the best possible path to do something. If going 20 was as rewarding then you could have a claim. Clearly it's not.
    Mhmm, because you're the only one that seem to perceive a contradiction. Dailies aren't mandatory, nor is this "60 in 20" business. There's no Blizzard GM stood behind you with a gun to your head demanding you play the game in this specific fashion. You choose the manner in which you earn your VP (or whether you even try and earn VP). You, no one else.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    A PITTANCE. NOBODY can answer the apparent contradiction in their statements. It is ludicrous to say that chellenge modes would feel required if gear was associated with them but dailies DONT. How ABSURD is this. Going 60 in the zone is required because it's the best possible path to do something. If going 20 was as rewarding then you could have a claim. Clearly it's not.
    Let's go with your stupid analogy: All I'm saying is that there's no actual posted speed limit. The asshole in the pickup just thinks he has to do at 60. Some people want to do 55... Then the asshole comes up behind them wanting them to do 60 so he tailgates them. Person in front now feels compelled to do 60 because of exterior pressure. That's the point.
    Knowledge is power, and power corrupts. So study hard and be evil.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tankitbetter View Post
    Caps locking your adjectives and adverbs do not help get your point across. It just makes your post harder to raid.

    Yes, there is a best possible path to something. No one is arguing that.

    We are arguing that you are not forced to take that path. If you want to mozy along, you are welcome to. However, don't expect to get the same rewards.



    This make come as a shock to you but....yes, games reward you for spending more time and doing more things in them.
    Of course you are because it's the best possible path. Because the alternative is worse and people will always seek to maxamize their gain. Blizzard knows this. They wont hand out a pvp honor weapon because then every pve player would feel forced to do it.

    It doesn't shock me one bit. In fact it's always been that way. Except for before it was tied to dungeons. Now it's tied to something that probably wasn't that popular and is artificially gated to hell and back. OF COURSE people feel forced to do it, it was designed for exactly that reason.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-12 at 02:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Matchu View Post
    Mhmm, because you're the only one that seem to perceive a contradiction. Dailies aren't mandatory, nor is this "60 in 20" business. There's no Blizzard GM stood behind you with a gun to your head demanding you play the game in this specific fashion. You choose the manner in which you earn your VP (or whether you even try and earn VP). You, no one else.
    Actually even if their was a Blizz gm with a gun to my head I could still say no. I'd just get shot. The other alternative is worse HENCE the more rewarding path is always the forced one. It's always been this way and they've moved away from systems over time that have lead people to feel like they were forced to do this. They won't give pvpers an honor weapon because then every pve guy would feel compelled to get it.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-12 at 03:00 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Klingers View Post
    Let's go with your stupid analogy: All I'm saying is that there's no actual posted speed limit. The asshole in the pickup just thinks he has to do at 60. Some people want to do 55... Then the asshole comes up behind them wanting them to do 60 so he tailgates them. Person in front now feels compelled to do 60 because of exterior pressure. That's the point.
    Their never is and never was. You didn't have to take the 5% dps talent. You could have taken the shitty utility talent. Hell their were nights in heroic firelands where I did exactly that. Took the shitty utilty pvp talents and went in and cleared shit. It didn't matter. BUT the talents just had to be changed to give you choice... So why did you feel required to take that 5% dps talent (when you could have taken the alternative utility talent) so much so that they changed the talent system but you don't feel required to do dailies?
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post

    Actually even if their was a Blizz gm with a gun to my head I could still say no. I'd just get shot. The other alternative is worse HENCE the more rewarding path is always the forced one. It's always been this way and they've moved away from systems over time that have lead people to feel like they were forced to do this. They won't give pvpers an honor weapon because then every pve guy would feel compelled to get it.
    You're still not forced. If you want to cap out your valour, great, the gear's nice. But it's a conscientious choice. Dailies are one way of doing it, but I wouldn't necessarily say they're the most rewarding. I could do a heroic in the time I could do the dailies and I'd also have the chance at loot from that.

  10. #30
    I agree with the OP 100%, I only do in the game now things I find to be enjoyable and ignore all the "fake" rewards that really have no value.

  11. #31
    Of course you are because it's the best possible path. Because the alternative is worse and people will always seek to maxamize their gain. Blizzard knows this. They wont hand out a pvp honor weapon because then every pve player would feel forced to do it.

    It doesn't shock me one bit. In fact it's always been that way. Except for before it was tied to dungeons. Now it's tied to something that probably wasn't that popular and is artificially gated to hell and back. OF COURSE people feel forced to do it, it was designed for exactly that reason.
    You choose to play this game.
    You choose to raid.
    You choose to do dailies.
    You choose to do heroics.
    You choose to want VP items.
    You choose to not wait and get crafted items.

    Choice.

    Choice.

    Choice.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klingers View Post
    I've been seeing a lot of threads lately on here and the official forums basically saying some variation of this:

    "I'm sick of having to cap my valor every week. I've gotta do like 200 dailies a week! I'm sick of heroic grinding! Why can't it be quicker? I need to cap my valor!

    Guess what folks, can give you some insight into what's going on here; Part of the work I do is looking after computer systems used to help people with gambling problems. They can voluntarily exclude themselves from pubs and casinos; anywhere with electronic pokies or gambling activities. While I'm not an expert on addiction myself, I've had a lot of interaction with support professionals on this subject. I also play a LOT of WoW and like to analyse the meaning behind things.

    In MoP, when you feel compelled to piss away hours a night getting that valor capped Blizzard is quite cleverly exploiting the same addictive reward mechanisms in your brain's lymbic system that make that gambling addict throw his life savings down a poker machine. You know you shouldn't, you don't even materially enjoy it, but you can't stop. The "win" is too compelling to throw away.

    Anyway, in the hope I can keep it brief: You can give yourself permission to not cap your valor. It's Ok to say "Fuck this, it's boring. I'll take another week to get that VP necklace."

    Don't burn yourself out folks. The pixels aren't going anywhere.
    I agree, it's the basics of addiction...People say they hate doing things in a game, yet they do them anyway, most of the time it seems like people feel "forced" to do them in some way. The fact is that you aren't forced to do them, unless you have a gun to your head, you're more than likely addicted to doing them because you feel some sense of accomplishment from doing so.

    The bottom line is, if you feel forced to do anything in this game, there's a problem...and it's not Blizzard's.
    I'm mean because you're stupid.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matchu View Post
    You're still not forced. If you want to cap out your valour, great, the gear's nice. But it's a conscientious choice. Dailies are one way of doing it, but I wouldn't necessarily say they're the most rewarding. I could do a heroic in the time I could do the dailies and I'd also have the chance at loot from that.
    Okay well then the old talent system was a choice as well. I mean you didn't need that 5% dps talent. Talents didn't need to be changed then I guess. It was all choice.

    Let's put it this way. When your dailies have an rng chance to drop 0-150 rep and your at the mercy of rng then it will feel equal. As it is now the weekend is coming and I'm done with dungeons aside from a piece or two. I will simply run my dailies, i'm already saved for lfr, and then afk in org because well I'm already saved to those two dungeons.

    Dailies are currently the most rewarding way to play. They took most of the reward out of dungeons because they were to rewarding and put it behind dailies. On purpose. They knew NOBODY or few people would be arsed to do dailies unless the reward was so good. Dailies were historically always just gold and cosmetic stuff. This entire thing is the most skinner box I've ever felt in wow.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tankitbetter View Post
    You choose to play this game.
    You choose to raid.
    You choose to do dailies.
    You choose to do heroics.
    You choose to want VP items.
    You choose to not wait and get crafted items.

    Choice.

    Choice.

    Choice.
    Yuup. I choose to sub to. That is seeming like less and less of a good choice every day. Talents just had to be changed because well you had no REAL choice. The simple fact is that you did have choice with the talents as well. Nobody blinked when they said you didn't have choice then...
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  15. #35
    When all 6 wings on LFR are open you will be able to do

    6x90 VP = 540 (clear LFR)
    45x5 VP = 225 (enough quests for three lucky charms)
    9x25 VP = 225 (9 raid bosses on normal or heroic)
    --------------------
    = 990 VP
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  16. #36
    Okay well then the old talent system was a choice as well. I mean you didn't need that 5% dps talent. Talents didn't need to be changed then I guess. It was all choice.
    Strawman.

    Talents directly affected your ability in all areas of the game. Dailies do not. They are not equivalent.

    For the sake of argument, talents offered the illusion of choice. Dailies are an actual choice, as you can cap your valour out other ways perfectly fine.

    Let's put it this way. When your dailies have an rng chance to drop 0-150 rep and your at the mercy of rng then it will feel equal. As it is now the weekend is coming and I'm done with dungeons aside from a piece or two. I will simply run my dailies, i'm already saved for lfr, and then afk in org because well I'm already saved to those two dungeons.
    OK? Well if you're mixing it up, great. The system has served you well.

    Dailies are currently the most rewarding way to play. They took most of the reward out of dungeons because they were to rewarding and put it behind dailies. On purpose. They knew NOBODY or few people would be arsed to do dailies unless the reward was so good. Dailies were historically always just gold and cosmetic stuff. This entire thing is the most skinner box I've ever felt in wow.
    Disagree. They're rewarding, they're supposed to be. But they're on par with dungeons (presuming guild group), you lose out on extra gear but you gain rep and occasional other rewards ("Treasure of the Vale" etc). And if you can't get a guild group, then they intentionally offer you a path you can solo.

    They will obviously reward you far more if you have difficulty dungeoning or using LFR.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    ....in an MMORPG, who the f are you competing with? When did MMORPGs become competitions?

    In 1998 my guild in Ultima Online was Order and we HATED Chaos guilds and constantly fought them for spawns and house placement land and dungeons and later on as the game progressed with Factions, entire cities. Sooo... for years? EQ Classic had Heaven's Everfiend, Legacy of Steel, Fires of Heaven, Defenders of Ak'anon, Harbingers of Despair, Realm of Ages.... Sylvan Rangers... tons of other guilds fighting for firsts just as loudly as the WoW guilds today and that was around y2k.

    smile!! Hearts loves you!!

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    Yuup. I choose to sub to. That is seeming like less and less of a good choice every day. Talents just had to be changed because well you had no REAL choice. The simple fact is that you did have choice with the talents as well. Nobody blinked when they said you didn't have choice then...
    Sounds good. Unsub. That's your choice.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matchu View Post
    Strawman.

    Talents directly affected your ability in all areas of the game. Dailies do not. They are not equivalent


    OK? Well if you're mixing it up, great. The system has served you well.


    Disagree. They're rewarding, they're supposed to be. But they're on par with dungeons (presuming guild group), you lose out on extra gear but you gain rep and occasional other rewards ("Treasure of the Vale" etc). And if you can't get a guild group, then they intentionally offer you a path you can solo.

    They will obviously reward you far more if you have difficulty dungeoning or using LFR.
    They are absolutely equivalent. The reward behind dailies DIRECTLY AFFECTS YOUR GAME PLAY. Be it because of charms or recipes or whatever. It directly affects your ability to progress your character.

    Dungeons aren't even remotely on par with dailies. Seriously. They took all the reward out of dungeons and put it behind dailies. Rep, gear, money, all of it is so much better behind dailies. Dungeons are piss weak for reward and the life cycle they got in cataclysm won't be anywhere near as good in mists.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-12 at 03:16 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Tankitbetter View Post
    Sounds good. Unsub. That's your choice.
    Done and done.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Klingers View Post

    Anyway, in the hope I can keep it brief: You can give yourself permission to not cap your valor. It's Ok to say "Fuck this, it's boring. I'll take another week to get that VP necklace."
    In a game where gear gives you advantage over another player, it can be a problem to not cap valor. Also some guilds can whine if you apply that "you should have this and this item by now". Imo dailys should give 10 vp and heroics 100 vp for first one and 60 justice after that. That way u could easily cap valor even if u have irl responsibilities.

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