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  1. #1
    Brewmaster Klingers's Avatar
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    Capping valor - You have a choice

    I've been seeing a lot of threads lately on here and the official forums basically saying some variation of this:

    "I'm sick of having to cap my valor every week. I've gotta do like 200 dailies a week! I'm sick of heroic grinding! Why can't it be quicker? I need to cap my valor!

    Guess what folks, can give you some insight into what's going on here; Part of the work I do is looking after computer systems used to help people with gambling problems. They can voluntarily exclude themselves from pubs and casinos; anywhere with electronic pokies or gambling activities. While I'm not an expert on addiction myself, I've had a lot of interaction with support professionals on this subject. I also play a LOT of WoW and like to analyse the meaning behind things.

    In MoP, when you feel compelled to piss away hours a night getting that valor capped Blizzard is quite cleverly exploiting the same addictive reward mechanisms in your brain's lymbic system that make that gambling addict throw his life savings down a poker machine. You know you shouldn't, you don't even materially enjoy it, but you can't stop. The "win" is too compelling to throw away.

    Anyway, in the hope I can keep it brief: You can give yourself permission to not cap your valor. It's Ok to say "Fuck this, it's boring. I'll take another week to get that VP necklace."

    Don't burn yourself out folks. The pixels aren't going anywhere.
    Knowledge is power, and power corrupts. So study hard and be evil.

  2. #2
    To stay competitive or to even try to catch up, "capping valor" is very much necessary. Just because some people take this game a little more serious does not mean they are addicted.
    By NOT capping valor you put yourself behind others and achieving certain goals in the game will take longer; meaning it will actually require you to play MORE for a longer period of time.

  3. #3
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    I mean your basically saying you can got at 20 in a 60 zone nobody is stopping you. OF COURSE YOU CAN. Who the fuck want's to go 20 in a 60 zone? OLD PEOPLE? I could also just choose not to log on or to sub. I'll tell you what if Blizzard gives me some reward for not capping, say an increase in the rate I gain next week then I'll consider not capping.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  4. #4
    Super Moderator Darsithis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dangelo37 View Post
    To stay competitive or to even try to catch up, "capping valor" is very much necessary. Just because some people take this game a little more serious does not mean they are addicted.
    By NOT capping valor you put yourself behind others and achieving certain goals in the game will take longer; meaning it will actually require you to play MORE for a longer period of time.
    It does indeed make you have to play more to stay competitive, and some people don't have the choice here. My guild is requiring raiders (like myself), to cap their valor and run their dailies in order to get rep/rep-related items so we can progress (3/6N). But that's simply because I'm in a progression raiding guild. For those not raiding and for those not participating in group activity outside of LFR, what does it matter? Who are you really competing against by not doing the dailies or capping your VP? There are tens of thousands of players per server...unless you're one of the top 100 or so, it doesn't really matter. No one else cares.



  5. #5
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    It does indeed make you have to play more to stay competitive, and some people don't have the choice here. My guild is requiring raiders (like myself), to cap their valor and run their dailies in order to get rep/rep-related items so we can progress (3/6N). But that's simply because I'm in a progression raiding guild. For those not raiding and for those not participating in group activity outside of LFR, what does it matter? Who are you really competing against by not doing the dailies or capping your VP? There are tens of thousands of players per server...unless you're one of the top 100 or so, it doesn't really matter
    Even people who don't raid still like to gear and progress their characters as much as they can. I don't get why this is such a hard concept. Raids don't matter. It's the psychology of people that Blizzard has more or less reinforced over the years and is totally fine. It totally matters to people who play this game because they don't want to feel like their going 20. They want to feel like they hit the gas and are ready to go. CMooon CMOOON. I can't believe YOU ARE SAYING THIS DARTH. You are the guy who argued with me that two raids a week in wotlk WAS FORCED. You don't need that gear for your raid, competitive or not. The top guilds cleared it without that shit. Cmooooon. It's such a huge contradiction to everything they've done over the years. You have to see this reversal.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2012-10-12 at 02:37 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    It does indeed make you have to play more to stay competitive, and some people don't have the choice here. My guild is requiring raiders (like myself), to cap their valor and run their dailies in order to get rep/rep-related items so we can progress (3/6N). But that's simply because I'm in a progression raiding guild. For those not raiding and for those not participating in group activity outside of LFR, what does it matter? Who are you really competing against by not doing the dailies or capping your VP? There are tens of thousands of players per server...unless you're one of the top 100 or so, it doesn't really matter. No one else cares.
    Not to be rude, but 3/6N is hardly a "progression raiding guild" and if you need VP items to clear normal modes, you're compensating for a lot of bad play.

    Quote Originally Posted by dangelo37 View Post
    To stay competitive or to even try to catch up, "capping valor" is very much necessary. Just because some people take this game a little more serious does not mean they are addicted.
    By NOT capping valor you put yourself behind others and achieving certain goals in the game will take longer; meaning it will actually require you to play MORE for a longer period of time.
    Have we really come to the point where people are complaining about welfare epics being too hard to get?

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by dangelo37 View Post
    By NOT capping valor you put yourself behind others and achieving certain goals in the game will take longer; meaning it will actually require you to play MORE for a longer period of time.
    It would not require you to play longer. It would be (about) the same time (ingame), just stretched out more (irl).

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    Even people who don't raid still like to gear and progress their characters as much as they can. I don't get why this is such a hard concept. Raids don't matter. It's the psychology of people that Blizzard has more or less reinforced over the years and is totally fine. It totally matters to people who play this game because they don't want to feel like their going 20. They want to feel like they hit the gas and are ready to go.
    So what's the problem? If you have no guild breathing down your neck, you're free to work towards the cap at your own schedule and means. Whether dailies, heroics, LFR or a mix of all.

  9. #9
    Brewmaster Klingers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    It does indeed make you have to play more to stay competitive, and some people don't have the choice here. My guild is requiring raiders (like myself), to cap their valor and run their dailies in order to get rep/rep-related items so we can progress (3/6N). But that's simply because I'm in a progression raiding guild. For those not raiding and for those not participating in group activity outside of LFR, what does it matter? Who are you really competing against by not doing the dailies or capping your VP? There are tens of thousands of players per server...unless you're one of the top 100 or so, it doesn't really matter. No one else cares.
    Very, very good points. Exactly what I was saying. And even being "required" to do it as a raider is a choice, i.e. you CHOOSE to be a raider. Someone else sets the conditions of requiring capped valor, it's of course your choice.

    And you're right. Most other people don't care. Players do it for themselves.

    It's classic reward/addiction psychology. I'll give you a hint: If you feel like "you have to" get your valor up to cap, you're doing it wrong. You're only racing against your own personal equivalent of a Mario Kart ghost. I won't hold it against you if you take another week to get glowing shoulder pads.
    Knowledge is power, and power corrupts. So study hard and be evil.

  10. #10
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matchu View Post
    So what's the problem? If you have no guild breathing down your neck, you're free to work towards the cap at your own schedule and means. Whether dailies, heroics, LFR or a mix of all.
    The problem is that dailies suck and I don't like doing them. Seriously raiding guild breathing down your neck or not is totally irellevant. NOBODY WANTS TO GO AT 20 WHEN THEY SEE THEY CAN GO AT 60. When someone answers why challenge modes can't have gear because it will feel require but the dailies can I will accept this bs. It is a massive contradiction on their part.

    It's so obvious what's going on here it really hurts my head that a chunk of you people don't get. It is an attempt to change the type of content that people consume by making dailies vastly more rewarding and dungeons poor by comparison.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    The problem is that dailies suck and I don't like doing them. Seriously raiding guild breathing down your neck or not is totally irellevant. NOBODY WANTS TO GO AT 20 WHEN THEY SEE THEY CAN GO AT 60. When someone answers why challenge modes can't have gear because it will feel require but the dailies can I will accept this bs. It is a massive contradiction on their part.
    So don't be in a serious raiding guild.

    I mean, what's next? "QQ I HAVE TO BRING FOOD AND FLASKS TO RAIDS"?

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    The problem is that dailies suck and I don't like doing them. Seriously raiding guild breathing down your neck or not is totally irellevant. NOBODY WANTS TO GO AT 20 WHEN THEY SEE THEY CAN GO AT 60. When someone answers why challenge modes can't have gear because it will feel require but the dailies can I will accept this bs. It is a massive contradiction on their part.
    Huh? YOU CAN GO AT 60 TOO. Just do the dailies or run the heroics or run LFR. You have options, just because you don't like them doesn't mean they're irrelevant. Work = reward, nothing is going to just be handed to you.

    Challenge mode has its own rewards, not sure why you brought that up.

  13. #13
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tankitbetter View Post
    So don't be in a serious raiding guild.

    I mean, what's next? "QQ I HAVE TO BRING FOOD AND FLASKS TO RAIDS"?
    I'm not in a serious raiding guild but even if i was the point still remains. They moved AWAY from things like having two raid lockouts for PRECISELY the reason that it felt mandatory. It's the same reason they wont hand out a pvp honor weapon, it's the same reason they won't give gear to challenge modes. IT'S A MASSIVE contradiction.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  14. #14
    Super Moderator Darsithis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    Even people who don't raid still like to gear and progress their characters as much as they can. I don't get why this is such a hard concept. Raids don't matter. It's the psychology of people that Blizzard has more or less reinforced over the years and is totally fine. It totally matters to people who play this game because they don't want to feel like their going 20. They want to feel like they hit the gas and are ready to go. CMooon CMOOON. I can't believe YOU ARE SAYING THIS DARTH. You are the guy who argued with me that two raids a week in wotlk WAS FORCED. You don't need that gear for your raid, competitive or not. The top guilds cleared it without that shit. Cmooooon. It's such a huge contradiction to everything they've done over the years. You have to see this reversal.
    I know they like to progress their characters just fine. And Wrath's model was forced in that there were NO other avenues to getting the maximum number of frost emblems per week unless you did:

    - One dungeon a day
    - Full clear of ICC 10
    - Full clear of ICC 25
    - Full clear of VoA
    - Weekly raid quest (and ICC weekly raid quest)

    If you didn't do those, you couldn't max your frost emblems, and it was all pretty much raiding. The rewards were slower, too - if you only raided 10 man each week you would take 9 weeks to get one piece of gear. Even the most casual player wants to gear faster than that. Now, you can max your VP if you wish to through a few different ways: dungeons, dailies, LFR, regular raiding. You can mix and match the ones you want to do. You're not forced to run the same raid multiple times (unless you count LFR in your rotation) to gear up with different sized teams, and you can pick up gear every week or two.

    As for the top guilds: I'll say this again: time has a factor in that. They throw themselves at the bosses for hours until it is down and then move on. They max their VP and their rep as fast as they can and craft everything they can for an edge. I didn't watch the streams but I can't imagine the top guilds just waltzed into MV normal wearing 429 quest greens and downed the bosses. What the top guilds do and what the rest of the 10 million players do is very, very different. They're competing in their minds, the top guilds are actually competing and have a reason to max everything. There is nothing special to the top guilds. They're not gods of World of Warcraft; plenty of players just as skilled as they are raid in regular old casual or hardcore guilds that just don't shoot for world first.

    The new model of being able to pick and choose how you want to max your VP (if you even want to!) is the strength of MoP. It's no longer forced on you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tankitbetter View Post
    Not to be rude, but 3/6N is hardly a "progression raiding guild" and if you need VP items to clear normal modes, you're compensating for a lot of bad play.
    No, we are progressing, just slower. We're a 25 man guild doing 10 man runs while the rest of the 25 people finally get to 90 and gear up. We're not aiming for world or server firsts, but we also don't sit around doing nothing until nerfs arrive so we can raid. We'll likely hit 6/6N very shortly. When you get only 1 day a week and 2 items per boss, it's hard to gear up. LFR/crafting/VP items help with that.



  15. #15
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matchu View Post
    Huh? YOU CAN GO AT 60 TOO. Just do the dailies or run the heroics or run LFR. You have options, just because you don't like them doesn't mean they're irrelevant. Work = reward, nothing is going to just be handed to you.

    Challenge mode has its own rewards, not sure why you brought that up.
    BECAUSE challenge modes don't reward you with gear. Dailes do. Challenge modes don't have gear because the developers thought it would make the whole experience feel to required and mandatory. BUT DAILIES AREN'T? It's a massive contradiction. I have options, run dailies. Everything else is simply going 20 in a 60 zone.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  16. #16
    But but if i dont cap my valor how will i get epics?!? Seriously though anyone working on progression knows they need to cap their valor every week to get more gear to ease progression stress.

  17. #17
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    I know they like to progress their characters just fine. And Wrath's model was forced in that there were NO other avenues to getting the maximum number of frost emblems per week unless you did:
    NO IT WASN'T FORCED.. Cmooooon your reasonable dartbh you have to see the contradiction here. NOTHING IS FORCED IN THIS GAME except apparently in wotlk when it was. Well why was that forced? BECAUSE IT WAS THE BEST PATH TO DO SOMETHING. Just like these dailies are exactly that. THE BEST PATH. If the other paths were just as agood and just as rewarding dailies wouldn't feel so forced and frankly NOBODY WOULD TOUCH THEM. Or few of you at any rate. Cmoon they took so much of the reward out of dungeons and tied it behind dailies. You don't see the contradiction? cmoon.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by dangelo37 View Post
    To stay competitive or to even try to catch up, "capping valor" is very much necessary.
    ....in an MMORPG, who the f are you competing with? When did MMORPGs become competitions?

    Oh, when they became more mainstream and the X-Box Live crowd thought teabagging was funny in an MMO? Around that time? Would explain a lot about the problems people run into these days. The "competition" mentality has borked it all to hell.
    "There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    I'm not in a serious raiding guild but even if i was the point still remains. They moved AWAY from things like having two raid lockouts for PRECISELY the reason that it felt mandatory. It's the same reason they wont hand out a pvp honor weapon, it's the same reason they won't give gear to challenge modes. IT'S A MASSIVE contradiction.
    You're comparing apples and giraffes.

    Dailies are not required. And even if they were, suck it up. If you want to raid, you do what's necessary in order to progress.

  20. #20
    Brewmaster Klingers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    It's so obvious what's going on here it really hurts my head that a chunk of you people don't get. It is an attempt to change the type of content that people consume by making dailies vastly more rewarding and dungeons poor by comparison.
    I don't care what the reward level for dailies are. It's also not the point of this thread. What I'm trying to get across is that the compulsion to go right up to the VP cap is completely manufactured, arbitrary, and very like the behavior exploited by gaming venues with poker machines.
    Knowledge is power, and power corrupts. So study hard and be evil.

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