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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    They are absolutely equivalent.
    No, they are not. How you play, who you play with and what kind of time you can sink into the game will mean your efficiency in one area will or won't be greater than the other. Also include whether you really, really hate dailies.

    The rewards behind dailies improve your gameplay. But that gameplay isn't dependant on them. You can continue to quest/raid without those rewards. I know we've had characters who levelled without any talents at all, but let's assume those people are a little bit crazy since it would make things a lot more difficult.

    If you don't like dungeons, fine. They still give you gear.

  2. #42
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matchu View Post
    No, they are not. How you play, who you play with and what kind of time you can sink into the game will mean your efficiency in one area will or won't be greater than the other. Also include whether you really, really hate dailies.

    The rewards behind dailies improve your gameplay. But that gameplay isn't dependant on them. You can continue to quest/raid without those rewards. I know we've had characters who levelled without any talents at all, but let's assume those people are a little bit crazy since it would make things a lot more difficult.

    If you don't like dungeons, fine. They still give you gear.
    They are asbolutely equivalent. Gear affects how you play as well. How well you play. Same for charms (in the longer run) and same for those recipes. I mean their were MANY MANY talents that simply just "improved" your game play and you weren't dependent on them either. Dude I swear to god our hunter didn't have bombardment through most of firelands we didn't even notice. On some nights I wouldn't take the 5% dps talent because well it was simply an improvement. Or you could take the utility talent. In either case you were never forced to take those things. Did Blizzard put a gun to your head and say take the 5% dps talent? of course not. Hell in wotlk it was even more noticeable because it was less restricted and I could take any mismatch of talents I wanted. But nope. Everyone felt forced and min maxed and it just had to change to present people with choice.

    Their is no difference with these dailies. They are forced as hell.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  3. #43
    Of course you are because it's the best possible path. Because the alternative is worse and people will always seek to maxamize their gain. Blizzard knows this. They wont hand out a pvp honor weapon because then every pve player would feel forced to do it.
    This is just simply not true

    I don't do the dailys cause they are annoying and i don't cap my VP because you know what? i couldn't care less if they are capped or not. I play the game to have fun and i would cancel my sub before i let the gameplay get to a state where it feels like i'm actually working instead of playing

    Same goes for that pvp weapon analogy, there has been a time where the option to get the pvp weapons was there and they were mostly superior to the 10 man weapons you could get and you know what? i still didn't get them. You might ask "WHY oh god WHY the pvp weapons were better" but what the hell do i care if i do a little (or even a lot) more dps? I don't want to play arena (back then there was no RBG) so i don't friggin play arena. It's still my choice and noone elses! I did get 1 pvp weapon at some point because i liked the way it looked (this was before transmogrify) and only because of that and not because it gave me an edge dps wise.

    So yeah here i am the living example of someone "going 20 in a 60 zone" (that analogy is completely stupid btw and doesn't match the discussion at all, but since you bring it up at every 2nd reply i will use it this one time aswell) and actually enjoying it

    Oh and another thing, all that VP stuff you can get can easily be replaced by skill in a non hardcore raiding environment, because skill matters a whole friggin lot more than those itemlevels do, so a good player can do just fine in LFR and normal mode without capping their VP every week.

    so tl;dr version: noone forces you to do dailys, if you feel you are forced to do them then there is something seriously wrong with your mindset. In that case there are 2 possible options why you feel that way

    1. the psychological addiction thing maybe paired with a little self esteem problem that gets fixed by shiny purples or

    2. you are playing in a hardcore raiding guild which is more like a job than actually playing a game

    I've been down that road so I know what i'm talking about. The second one is still a choice and the first one is a problem.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    They are asbolutely equivalent. Gear affects how you play as well. How well you play. Same for charms (in the longer run) and same for those recipes. I mean their were MANY MANY talents that simply just "improved" your game play and you weren't dependent on them either. Dude I swear to god our hunter didn't have bombardment through most of firelands we didn't even notice. On some nights I wouldn't take the 5% dps talent because well it was simply an improvement. Or you could take the utility talent. In either case you were never forced to take those things. Did Blizzard put a gun to your head and say take the 5% dps talent? of course not. Hell in wotlk it was even more noticeable because it was less restricted and I could take any mismatch of talents I wanted. But nope. Everyone felt forced and min maxed and it just had to change to present people with choice.

    Their is no difference with these dailies. They are forced as hell.
    They are not forced in any possible meaning of the word "forced". Are you possessed by the spirit of Ghostcrawler who moves your hands until you hand in all those quests? You choose to do the dailies because you wish to improve your character right now. That's fine, but you can also choose not to. Or improve it through other means. If you, as an individual, feel you must be the best geared as soon as possible, fine. But that's a personal decision, no one else matters. If you're not having fun in the paths you choose, take a different path or simply don't play.

    And please stop arguing that talents are the same issue. The whole point of the revamp was to also offer choice in them, rather than an illusion of choice. None of the talents are by themselves mandatory (it's a debatable point I admit, but the idea is none are mandatory).

  5. #45
    Brewmaster Awbee's Avatar
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    @ Atrahasis: why do you see everything as a competiton? Why do you think you have to be the best and the fastest? I assume you're also one of these people who rushed to 90 like crazy, and who complain about having nothing to do once you're decked out in good gear, and then the hamster race continues ...

    Can you only have fun if you're the absolute best? I assume you have too much testosterone running in your system. Seeing everything as a competition will just lead to you having an early heart attack. It's not a healthy lifestyle. Learn something from the Pandaren take it easy.

  6. #46
    They are asbolutely equivalent. Gear affects how you play as well. How well you play. Same for charms (in the longer run) and same for those recipes. I mean their were MANY MANY talents that simply just "improved" your game play and you weren't dependent on them either. Dude I swear to god our hunter didn't have bombardment through most of firelands we didn't even notice. On some nights I wouldn't take the 5% dps talent because well it was simply an improvement. Or you could take the utility talent. In either case you were never forced to take those things. Did Blizzard put a gun to your head and say take the 5% dps talent? of course not. Hell in wotlk it was even more noticeable because it was less restricted and I could take any mismatch of talents I wanted. But nope. Everyone felt forced and min maxed and it just had to change to present people with choice.

    Their is no difference with these dailies. They are forced as hell.
    They are not the same. Period. The main difference beeing that it takes you about 10 seconds to change your talents and it takes no effort at all and gives you a huge edge over your fellow raidmembers.
    Doing dailys and eventually getting better gear through them is something completely different, they might aswell give you an edge but it requires actual work.

    I had no problem taking the cookie cutter builds and reading up on them during my whole wow career because it took nearly no effort on my side. The dailys on the other hand i refuse to do because i don't want to.

    So no comparing something that takes 10 seconds once a month with something you spend hours on every week is not the same friggin thing.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Tankitbetter View Post
    Not to be rude, but 3/6N is hardly a "progression raiding guild" and if you need VP items to clear normal modes, you're compensating for a lot of bad play.
    Not to be rude but a guild saying they are a progression guild has nothing to do with the speed at which it is achieved but the direction of the guild and you do not get to decide on the factors in their decision. If the guild is focused on progression and raids 30 mins a week total that does not mean they are not a progression raiding guild it just means they don't raid a lot. Progression and hardcore are two totally different animals and you are not a deciding factor in either of the definitions.

    And to be honest your post is rude, even if you didn't intend it to be.
    "The world needs anger. The world often continues to allow evil to exist because it isn't angry enough."
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  8. #48
    Brewmaster Wiyld's Avatar
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    Everyone in this thread needs ( lol ) to stop using the word 'Need' immediately.

    There is not NEED in wow. None, at all, whatsoever.

    If you feel the word NEED enter your lexicon when discussing your time spent in Wow its time to turn off the computer and reassess your priorities.

    This is coming from one who had such a realization a long time ago about the game.

    And don't come at me with 'well DUH of course you don't have to do this stuff but you know how it is, competition and everything'.

    No, just no, everyone knows at an intelectual level they don't HAVE to do things in a video game but on an unconscious level, they are very much stuck on the mindset of NEED.

    I swear I feel like I'm in that scene in goodwill hunting but instead im repeating "You don't have to play, You don't have to play, you don't have to play........" And all the folks who don't like hearing this are gonna go 'Psh, of course I don;t have to play why are you saying this'. But the fact is, you don't know it, you can't stop and you need to fix yourself. For your own good.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-12 at 11:46 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Bullhurley View Post
    Not to be rude but a guild saying they are a progression guild has nothing to do with the speed at which it is achieved but the direction of the guild and you do not get to decide on the factors in their decision. If the guild is focused on progression and raids 30 mins a week total that does not mean they are not a progression raiding guild it just means they don't raid a lot. Progression and hardcore are two totally different animals and you are not a deciding factor in either of the definitions.

    And to be honest your post is rude, even if you didn't intend it to be.

    Facts don't take feelings into account, nor are theya t the behest of an individuals emotional response. By the way, why would you get offended by comments about a video game to begin with?
    Last edited by Wiyld; 2012-10-12 at 03:47 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gillern View Post
    "IM LOOKING AT A THING I DONT LIKE, I HAVE THE OPTION TO GO AWAY FROM IT BUT I WILL LOOK MORE AND COMPLAIN ABOUT THE THING I DONT LIKE BECAUSE I DONT LIKE IT, NO ONE IS FORCING ME TO SEARCH FOR THIS THING OR LOOK AT THIS THING OR REMAIN LOOKING AT THIS THING BUT I AM ANYWAY, ITS OFFENDS ME! ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME!!!"
    Troof

  9. #49
    Super Moderator Darsithis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    NO IT WASN'T FORCED.. Cmooooon your reasonable dartbh you have to see the contradiction here. NOTHING IS FORCED IN THIS GAME except apparently in wotlk when it was. Well why was that forced? BECAUSE IT WAS THE BEST PATH TO DO SOMETHING. Just like these dailies are exactly that. THE BEST PATH. If the other paths were just as agood and just as rewarding dailies wouldn't feel so forced and frankly NOBODY WOULD TOUCH THEM. Or few of you at any rate. Cmoon they took so much of the reward out of dungeons and tied it behind dailies. You don't see the contradiction? cmoon.
    In Wrath, the ONLY progression path was 10 and 25 man raiding + one daily dungeon. That was it. If, IF you wanted to cap your frost badges and gear up with the rest of your guild to raid (casual, progression, or hardcore) that was your only option. You were forced into it only in the sense that you had to do it in order to do it. It was a vicious cycle that burned out a lot of guilds by the end of 12 months of ICC.

    Now that's been changed. You can do as many dungeons a day as you want. Or, you can forgo raiding and dungeons and do dailies. You can forget dailies and just raid and do dungeons. You can mix and and match it to your heart's content. That's the freedom I'm referring to.

    Now, OT: if people feel the need to cap VP outside of requirements set by their guild (which they agree to by participating in guild activities), that's a mental issue. It's not required. It's not necessary. It's not forced, and it's not needed. The gear doesn't go anywhere and if it takes you till 5.1 when new gear comes out, who cares?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehman View Post
    Pretty much what the adorable penguin here said. The only people who HAVE to cap it is the people in "progression raiding guilds". Personally, my guild isn't all that strict, we just require your gear to be gemmed and such, and ofcourse for people to get atleast SOME VP per week, but the more hardcore ones need that edge that a capped VP and reps give you.
    Exactly!



  10. #50
    Dreadlord Baine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    A PITTANCE. NOBODY can answer the apparent contradiction in their statements. It is ludicrous to say that chellenge modes would feel required if gear was associated with them but dailies DONT.
    Dailies are not targetting raiders mostly but casuals who do not raid and still want to get some gear (I am in that group). I may try LFR but raiding stinks imo so I am happy to have those reps to farm and gear to get at the end.

  11. #51
    People feel like they have to cap valor because it was so freaking easy in Cataclysm 4.3
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  12. #52
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    In Wrath, the ONLY progression path was 10 and 25 man raiding + one daily dungeon.



    Exactly!

    Not in the SLIGHTEST. You didn't have to do both in any sense of the word and you DIDN'T NEED to cap valor either. Just as you don't now. The freedom in this game is even LESS than you had before. Simply every day you don't do dailies your progress is retarded. Everyday you don't do you dungeon daily (a totally unecessary regressive change on their part) your progress is retarded just a little bit.

    I'm sorry it's just to contradictory on your part. You say it's necessary for you to icc 10 and 25 and your dungeon daily to progress at the best possible pace but dailies are totally unnecessary. It's just hypocrisy. And patronizing to. Well we raiders sure as hell have to but you lowly scrubs I dont know what your problem is. You realize you don't have to be in your guild either right?

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-12 at 05:24 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by b4dcrc View Post
    They are not the same. Period. The main difference beeing that it takes you about 10 seconds to change your talents and it takes no effort at all and gives you a huge edge over your fellow raidmembers.
    Doing dailys and eventually getting better gear through them is something completely different, they might aswell give you an edge but it requires actual work.

    I had no problem taking the cookie cutter builds and reading up on them during my whole wow career because it took nearly no effort on my side. The dailys on the other hand i refuse to do because i don't want to.

    So no comparing something that takes 10 seconds once a month with something you spend hours on every week is not the same friggin thing.
    I fail to see what the time it takes you to change one has to do with the other. The simple fact is that both were "choices" but the community and Blizzard at one point felt that talents weren't a choice so they had to be changed. Even though you really had the choice all along. You could have taken that fucking stupid wand talent. You had the chocie. The spirit of ghostcrawler didn't make you do a damn thing. Now you have choice with talents where before you had what?
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  13. #53
    What boggles my mind is that people will complain that "VP cap is required" but for the super hardcore players, transferring in the first few days to buy ilvl 509 epics off the BMAH.

    Mists came out the 25th. If they server xferred several times, they'd be able to buy ~5 of these pieces of gear by the 28th. 60 days of no realm first means that they would still be eligible for server first kill of heroic sha of fear since the raid isn't even released until the 30th of October.

  14. #54
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matchu View Post
    They are not forced in any possible meaning of the word "forced". Are you possessed by the spirit of Ghostcrawler who moves your hands until you hand in all those quests? You choose to do the dailies because you wish to improve your character right now. That's fine, but you can also choose not to. Or improve it through other means. If you, as an individual, feel you must be the best geared as soon as possible, fine. But that's a personal decision, no one else matters. If you're not having fun in the paths you choose, take a different path or simply don't play.

    And please stop arguing that talents are the same issue. The whole point of the revamp was to also offer choice in them, rather than an illusion of choice. None of the talents are by themselves mandatory (it's a debatable point I admit, but the idea is none are mandatory).
    The talents are exactly the same issue. Were you forced to take the 5% dps talent? Did the spirit of ghostcrawler make you avoid wand dmg? No of course not. However it wasn't a choice because anything less then the best possible path isn't a very good choice. I mean it's either all a choice or it isn't. Taking the 5% dps talent IS A PERSONAL DECISION no one else matters. If you feel you must have the min/max spec that's fine but that's a personal decision no one else matters. I mean your whole diatribe could be about talents and not about this daily system and nobody would know the difference. We could have been having this conversation a couple months ago and nobody could tell the difference and semantically it would have been the exact same thing. That's why it had to be changed right?
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2012-10-12 at 05:38 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    ....in an MMORPG, who the f are you competing with? When did MMORPGs become competitions?

    Oh, when they became more mainstream and the X-Box Live crowd thought teabagging was funny in an MMO? Around that time? Would explain a lot about the problems people run into these days. The "competition" mentality has borked it all to hell.
    You're competing with other players in nearly every aspect of the game. Some people strive to be good, not average.

  16. #56
    Actually there is no choice when it comes to capping valor. You have to do so many dailies that you'll be capped whether you want it or not.

  17. #57
    Dreadlord Noah37's Avatar
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    You can just play the game for enjoyment, like it is meant to be played. I am personally only level 89 right now, about to hit 90 and have no intention what so ever of capping out VP or doing every single daily or anything like that anytime soon. I'm just going to explore Pandaria and have some fun with a few friends that play. There is no reason to treat the game like a job.

  18. #58
    Super Moderator Darsithis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    The talents are exactly the same issue. Were you forced to take the 5% dps talent? Did the spirit of ghostcrawler make you avoid wand dmg? No of course not. However it wasn't a choice because anything less then the best possible path isn't a very good choice. I mean it's either all a choice or it isn't. Taking the 5% dps talent IS A PERSONAL DECISION no one else matters. If you feel you must have the min/max spec that's fine but that's a personal decision no one else matters. I mean your whole diatribe could be about talents and not about this daily system and nobody would know the difference. We could have been having this conversation a couple months ago and nobody could tell the difference and semantically it would have been the exact same thing. That's why it had to be changed right?
    Okay, you're being ridiculous now. You're splitting hairs to a very very fine degree that just makes no sense.

    If you want to participate in the game, and by that I mean, raid, do dungeons, or belong to a guild that does these things, in general you need to gem, enchant, and talent correctly. Since 5.0.4 that's been altered somewhat, as talents are just nifty abilities but nothing that is make or break for the class. Previously, you had to talent correctly to be considered for raiding with virtually any guild I can think of. That was the requirement to join or to pug a group with them. Same with dungeons. While Blizzard doesn't require you to be talented correctly, you probably would get booted by the people who would be fed up at your poor performance until you matched the talents with what was considered the appropriate set in order to belong and participate. Blizzard acknowledged that their design led people to being pigeon-holed into specific talent sets, rather than being free to do as they pleased, so in 5.0.4 they changed it. After all, the DPS that didn't take that 5% boost was someone we'd all laugh at. More dps for free? Are you kidding? That's what we'd say.

    VP capping is not the same thing. You don't have to VP cap unless required by your guild or your own sense of need. It isn't required. My statement about Wrath had nothing to do with capping being required and everything to do with the fact that the only way to cap frost badges per week (if you WANTED to), back then was 10 AND 25 man raiding! That's what burned people out - that they were either required by their guild or felt they had to (incorrectly) cap their frost badges and, as a result, ran ICC in two modes, every week + VOA + daily dungeons. Actually, there wasn't even a cap - there was just a mathematical limit on the number of frost badges you could pick up each week simply by running out of content and the burnout from doing all that content was incredible.

    Blizzard has given us the answer: a weekly cap. Now you don't have to do everything. You can do what you want to attain the goal, if you choose VP capping as a goal: dailies (and never set foot in a dungeon or raid), dungeons, raids, scenarios, LFR, or mix-and-match until you arrive at 1,000 valor points. It's all about choice, and they've given it to you. Come 5.1 you can even spend that VP on upgrading your gear a bit - now you don't necessarily have to raid at all to max out your gear. If you feel you love being a farmer, farm every day, gain your VP, and spend it on some gear.

    It's all about choice, now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dilbon View Post
    Actually there is no choice when it comes to capping valor. You have to do so many dailies that you'll be capped whether you want it or not.
    These are the statements I don't get. You don't have to do the dailies! Unless your guild says "you must cap your VP AND your reputation", you don't have to do them. They're a convenient way to do so, but there are other paths to progression



  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    Not in the SLIGHTEST. You didn't have to do both in any sense of the word and you DIDN'T NEED to cap valor either. Just as you don't now. The freedom in this game is even LESS than you had before. Simply every day you don't do dailies your progress is retarded. Everyday you don't do you dungeon daily (a totally unecessary regressive change on their part) your progress is retarded just a little bit.

    I'm sorry it's just to contradictory on your part. You say it's necessary for you to icc 10 and 25 and your dungeon daily to progress at the best possible pace but dailies are totally unnecessary. It's just hypocrisy. And patronizing to. Well we raiders sure as hell have to but you lowly scrubs I dont know what your problem is. You realize you don't have to be in your guild either right?
    You couldn't get gear pre-raid in Wrath without badge gear. Not the case with dailies and MoP.
    You can get gear at a reasonable pace without completing dailies. It won't be the MAXIMUM pace, but it was your choice to be a min/maxer in the first place. If VP gear was required for MoP raids and gated behind rep and dailies, then you might have a point. But you can get fully geared in MoP without doing a single daily. That is why dailies are optional.

  20. #60
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post

    It's all about choice, now.


    Then it's always been a choice even the talent sytems. Honestly nights on firelands I would purposely pick the NON optimal build. Take utility and pvp talents and STILL killing the bosses. It wasn't the guilds that forced you to talent certain ways, it was the simple fact that some talents were better than others and it became a choice between doing something better or doing something worse. That is exactly what is happening in mists. It isn't a choice unless you consider being slow a choice. For many taking the worse option, or the regressed/retarded option isn't an option. In any more or less way than picking the old style talents was. It had nothing to do with guidls because I bounced around to so many guilds of various degrees and I don't think I ever had one person tell me or look up and down my spec. I mean their was just an optimal way to do things and the best way became the spec you took. You didn't NEED to but that's what it was. Same thing is happening in mists. Their is an optimal path to doing things and it goes right through dailies. It doesn't matter if your a raider or not.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-12 at 07:25 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Lolercaust View Post
    You couldn't get gear pre-raid in Wrath without badge gear. Not the case with dailies and MoP.
    You can get gear at a reasonable pace without completing dailies. It won't be the MAXIMUM pace, but it was your choice to be a min/maxer in the first place. If VP gear was required for MoP raids and gated behind rep and dailies, then you might have a point. But you can get fully geared in MoP without doing a single daily. That is why dailies are optional.
    No you can't. You really can't actually. Especially considering all that gear is behind the dailies anyway. Getting gear without dailies is a pretty hard thing to do without them. Look at this point I need two pieces from the dungeons. Specific pieces. Justice points won't get me there either because well their not as good as the dungeon drops. I run my dailies, farm those two bosses once a day and am already saved to lfr. Ironically I have less to do in mists at this point than I did in cata. The VP gear is no good to me now and I can't farm more rep because dailies are done for the day so I have no cause to log on or I have every cause to afk. You cannot get fully geared as good as you would with dailies barring raiding. If your not in a raid guild then your not getting geared without dailies. They are simply not optional.

    Dailies are no more or less optional than the choices you would make in the old style talent points.
    Or the hypothetical pvp honor weapon
    or the hypothetical gear in challenge modes
    or running icc 10 and 25 (which nobody really needed to do guilded or otherwise)
    or going back to farm gold in old raids (which was nerfed because it felt to mandatory)

    Or anything in world of warcraft. I'm sorry I'm not splitting hairs here. You guys are just making to many convenient arguments when the developers have been doing nothing but the opposite for the entire history of the game. Removing every road block left right and center then mists comes out and BAM road block. Suck it up do dailies.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2012-10-12 at 07:38 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

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