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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by tuuvaak View Post
    In 1998 my guild in Ultima Online was Order and we HATED Chaos guilds and constantly fought them for spawns and house placement land and dungeons and later on as the game progressed with Factions, entire cities. Sooo... for years? EQ Classic had Heaven's Everfiend, Legacy of Steel, Fires of Heaven, Defenders of Ak'anon, Harbingers of Despair, Realm of Ages.... Sylvan Rangers... tons of other guilds fighting for firsts just as loudly as the WoW guilds today and that was around y2k.
    I heard next to nothing about world firsts during my days in EverQuest from 99 to 2002 or 2003. It seems like it's something that's only a big deal to those who convince themselves it is and then compete against one another. If you and another guild are trying to get there first, fine, but the game doesn't need alterations to revolve around a small minority who are convinced 2 weeks is too long for content to be played.
    "There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Dilbon View Post
    Actually there is no choice when it comes to capping valor. You have to do so many dailies that you'll be capped whether you want it or not.
    This. I have no trouble capping mY VP each week because I get something like 200 a day just from dailies, if I do nothing else.

    If you want to stay competitive and give your guild an edge, you have to buy VP gear. If you want to buy VP gear, you have to do dailies. You have to do them every day, or you will have to wait that much longer to get your gear.

    It doesn't end at Revered either, because Klaxxi and GL give you a free 489 ring and neck at Exalted. That's 2500 VP worth of free shit, or whatever your guild is charging in DKP/EPGP for those items/slots. The incentives are just too good to stop and say "I don't wanna do this."

    Saying that all these dailies aren't required is a fallacy because while it is technically true, it's akin to saying that you don't HAVE to get a good GPA to graduate college, or hell you don't HAVE to get a job and make a living. You can live on the street eating out of a garbage can, but it's not much of a life. Same with WoW, it's a gear treadmill and if you're stuck in heroic blues in about a month you're going to look like a hobo compared to the people who grinded dailies to exalted and are now walking around in full raid/VP gear.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    These are the statements I don't get. You don't have to do the dailies! Unless your guild says "you must cap your VP AND your reputation", you don't have to do them. They're a convenient way to do so, but there are other paths to progression
    I don't care about progression, I just want the recipes and patterns, especially the 28 slot bag pattern. And that takes a month of dailies every day.

  4. #64
    Super Moderator Darsithis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dilbon View Post
    I don't care about progression, I just want the recipes and patterns, especially the 28 slot bag pattern. And that takes a month of dailies every day.
    Some rewards are only available through certain paths. Those recipes = dailies. Raid/heroic raid gear = raiding. Most of the 463 gear = heroics. You're choosing to chase those rewards, so you do have to do dailies to do so, yes. For overall accumulation of VP you can pick and choose.



  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    Some rewards are only available through certain paths. Those recipes = dailies. Raid/heroic raid gear = raiding. Most of the 463 gear = heroics. You're choosing to chase those rewards, so you do have to do dailies to do so, yes. For overall accumulation of VP you can pick and choose.
    Accumulation of vp to spend on what exactly? the only thing to spend it on is through dailies currently and this system of upgrading gear is a pipe dream currently. I mean even if it comes out who's to say it won't be gated behind dailes as well and furthermore something about upgrading gear vs getting a new piece doesn't seem as rewarding to me. Upgrading is nice but if I've had the same shoulders for almost a month now I don't want to upgrade them I want to replace them with a new piece.

    Again choosing to chase rewards in a game all about rewards is funny. Your not choosing a fucking thing. Your being lead to the cheese. It's a skinner box and they changed the pellet you liked before that you were FORCED to take into something else. Just like your forced to do these god damned dailies.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    It does indeed make you have to play more to stay competitive, and some people don't have the choice here. My guild is requiring raiders (like myself), to cap their valor and run their dailies in order to get rep/rep-related items so we can progress (3/6N). But that's simply because I'm in a progression raiding guild. For those not raiding and for those not participating in group activity outside of LFR, what does it matter? Who are you really competing against by not doing the dailies or capping your VP? There are tens of thousands of players per server...unless you're one of the top 100 or so, it doesn't really matter. No one else cares.
    You're in a progession raiding guild.. and you're only 3/6 normal mode?

    What.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post

    Again choosing to chase rewards in a game all about rewards is funny. Your not choosing a fucking thing. Your being lead to the cheese. It's a skinner box and they changed the pellet you liked before that you were FORCED to take into something else. Just like your forced to do these god damned dailies.
    Really? Because I chose not to do my Klaxxi dailies yesterday because I just didn't have the time. I don't remember the voice of the Mysterons telling me not to, I just decided 'nope'. In a similar theme, the world didn't end because I chose not to. Today, I could still continue.

  8. #68
    OP, anyone saying that probably does have to cap valor to stay competitive. Anyone in my main group who wasn't even willing to cap valor and chase easy purps doesn't have their eye on the prize.

    That being said, the amount of effort needed to do this seems excessive. It's a lot of effort to not fall behind, even if it will only last a month like this before pve gear is fully raid driven again.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tankitbetter View Post
    Dailies are not required. And even if they were, suck it up. If you want to raid, you do what's necessary in order to progress.
    Exactly. If you don't raid or don't give a shit about it, you have no reason to grind all dailies every day for the VP rewards. As a (competent) raider you are required to do them (the ones that are relevant anyway). To speed up progression and to easy the stress of gearing up through boss loot. In my raid, I won't assign loot to someone who cba to do dailies over someone who has done the trouble.
    Last edited by Vayshan; 2012-10-12 at 08:10 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nosonia View Post
    Heroics are heroics for a reason.. if you cant do heroics, you cant raid.. its the proper path...
    ...Blizzard has gone the mile and added LFR for those people, but nerfing normal and hc modes is just plain stupid. The Burning Legion didn't get pushed back by lining up a thousand arcane mages spamming AB. It took work work work.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    Some rewards are only available through certain paths. Those recipes = dailies. Raid/heroic raid gear = raiding. Most of the 463 gear = heroics. You're choosing to chase those rewards, so you do have to do dailies to do so, yes. For overall accumulation of VP you can pick and choose.
    What was wrong with the way the recipes were done in Cataclysm? You had to choose to level a tailoring alt, choose to do your daily cooldown. Now you have to "choose" to level that toon to 90 and do months worth of dailies as well.

    Also, in case you hadn't noticed, VP gives 489 gear...the same gear you get out of normal Mogushan Vaults. Sure, if you're DREAM Paragon you can waltz in, clear it on heroic in 2 weeks in blues and farm from there, but for most of us that gear is going to give us a needed boost getting into heroic modes. So it's not really a choice, you either get carried and make everyone else work harder or you do the dailies and get your gear.

  11. #71
    Super Moderator Darsithis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    Accumulation of vp to spend on what exactly? the only thing to spend it on is through dailies currently and this system of upgrading gear is a pipe dream currently. I mean even if it comes out who's to say it won't be gated behind dailes as well and furthermore something about upgrading gear vs getting a new piece doesn't seem as rewarding to me. Upgrading is nice but if I've had the same shoulders for almost a month now I don't want to upgrade them I want to replace them with a new piece.

    Again choosing to chase rewards in a game all about rewards is funny. Your not choosing a fucking thing. Your being lead to the cheese. It's a skinner box and they changed the pellet you liked before that you were FORCED to take into something else. Just like your forced to do these god damned dailies.
    He's choosing to chase specific rewards that have a specific path. In this case, some recipes. I did the same with Klaxxi rep to get the blacksmithing recipes. Secondly, in 5.1 you can spend your accumulated VP on upgrading your gear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Courierrawr View Post
    You're in a progression raiding guild.. and you're only 3/6 normal mode?

    What.
    Oh stop with that, please. We don't have to be 6/6H to be a "progression guild". All that means is that we have set times for raiding, we insist all raiders commit, are gemmed and enchanted correctly, provide their own food, show up, and do the best they can do to get the bosses down. We're not chasing world or server firsts.



  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    snip.
    I didn't really read any of your posts, because they are drab, boring, and just all around terrible. You made a thread where you did nothing but whine and bitch because you weren't given all your gear on a silver platter fast enough that you actually stated you actually quit the game over it. But now your saved to LFR. Only a troll or just a flat out liar would do that. So congrats, you just discredited yourself in this community. way to go...

    Infracted. Keep it civil
    Last edited by Darsithis; 2012-10-12 at 08:38 PM.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Farabee View Post
    This. I have no trouble capping mY VP each week because I get something like 200 a day just from dailies, if I do nothing else.

    If you want to stay competitive and give your guild an edge, you have to buy VP gear. If you want to buy VP gear, you have to do dailies. You have to do them every day, or you will have to wait that much longer to get your gear.

    It doesn't end at Revered either, because Klaxxi and GL give you a free 489 ring and neck at Exalted. That's 2500 VP worth of free shit, or whatever your guild is charging in DKP/EPGP for those items/slots. The incentives are just too good to stop and say "I don't wanna do this."

    Saying that all these dailies aren't required is a fallacy because while it is technically true, it's akin to saying that you don't HAVE to get a good GPA to graduate college, or hell you don't HAVE to get a job and make a living. You can live on the street eating out of a garbage can, but it's not much of a life. Same with WoW, it's a gear treadmill and if you're stuck in heroic blues in about a month you're going to look like a hobo compared to the people who grinded dailies to exalted and are now walking around in full raid/VP gear.
    No one is going to be walking around in full epics just because they did their dailies, at best they'll have 2 epic rings, a neck piece, and maybe some wrist or belt item if they've been doing dailies since week one.

    You only get 4000 valor a month, enough to buy three items at most, 1 and a half if you already have epic rings/wrist/belt/neck items.

    Really, the only dailies you might be required to do are the klaxxi, golden lotus, and tiller dailies, the first two for the neck piece and rings, and the last for spirits of harmony, the rest of the gear is much more easily obtained by doing LFR & raids.
    Last edited by Courierrawr; 2012-10-12 at 08:21 PM.

  14. #74
    people complained about nothing to do in cata, and now they are complaining about having stuff to do?!

    really?

    you don't need to cap valor to raid, you don't even need to max your reps now that shoulder and head enchants are no longer rep dependent. all the valor vendors sell are pieces of gear that ease the transition into raids for those of us ( the vast vast majority of us ) who are not top 10 material.

    you don't need to raid, you raid because you enjoy it. if it ever starts feeling like a chore, you should stop doing it.

    i don't particularly like dallies, but doing them is better then sitting afk in org which is pretty much what i did for the entirety of cata after raids were finished. they bring people out into the world, and i'm hoping that they continue sustaining in subsequent patches them because they make my server alive again.
    " I need a sec, my wrists hurt from spamming slam so hard. Playing cleave vs cleave is tough stuff guys"

  15. #75
    Capping Valor will be relevant for maybe 1 or 2 more weeks, and by then any serious guild will be farming heroic bosses for better items anyhow.

    Right now, you could have two accessory slots filled up, or one and then save for a 2k+ VP item.

    After that, it's another 2 weeks before you get an item. By then, Hear of Fear will be out, and those items are useless.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    No you can't. You really can't actually. Especially considering all that gear is behind the dailies anyway. Getting gear without dailies is a pretty hard thing to do without them. Look at this point I need two pieces from the dungeons. Specific pieces. Justice points won't get me there either because well their not as good as the dungeon drops. I run my dailies, farm those two bosses once a day and am already saved to lfr. Ironically I have less to do in mists at this point than I did in cata. The VP gear is no good to me now and I can't farm more rep because dailies are done for the day so I have no cause to log on or I have every cause to afk. You cannot get fully geared as good as you would with dailies barring raiding. If your not in a raid guild then your not getting geared without dailies. They are simply not optional.

    Dailies are no more or less optional than the choices you would make in the old style talent points.
    Or the hypothetical pvp honor weapon
    or the hypothetical gear in challenge modes
    or running icc 10 and 25 (which nobody really needed to do guilded or otherwise)
    or going back to farm gold in old raids (which was nerfed because it felt to mandatory)

    Or anything in world of warcraft. I'm sorry I'm not splitting hairs here. You guys are just making to many convenient arguments when the developers have been doing nothing but the opposite for the entire history of the game. Removing every road block left right and center then mists comes out and BAM road block. Suck it up do dailies.
    Gear is harder to get without dailies, but not impossible. There's a difference.
    Dailies are optional. If you don't like them, stop doing them.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farabee View Post
    Saying that all these dailies aren't required is a fallacy because while it is technically true, it's akin to saying that you don't HAVE to get a good GPA to graduate college, or hell you don't HAVE to get a job and make a living.
    Stop right now..and think about what you just said.
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    "IM LOOKING AT A THING I DONT LIKE, I HAVE THE OPTION TO GO AWAY FROM IT BUT I WILL LOOK MORE AND COMPLAIN ABOUT THE THING I DONT LIKE BECAUSE I DONT LIKE IT, NO ONE IS FORCING ME TO SEARCH FOR THIS THING OR LOOK AT THIS THING OR REMAIN LOOKING AT THIS THING BUT I AM ANYWAY, ITS OFFENDS ME! ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME!!!"
    Troof

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolercaust View Post
    Gear is harder to get without dailies, but not impossible. There's a difference.
    Dailies are optional. If you don't like them, stop doing them.
    If gear is harder to get without dailies then it's not an option. Simply dailies or die. At this point I'm done with heroics. Basically I log on for lfr and that's it. WIthout dailiels i have no where to go and this BS upgrade system their implementing doesn't cut it. They may as well just get rid of valor gear altogether. My feeling is that's exactly what's coming. The argument that I don't need gear is similar to saying I don't need to play this game. Well your right I don't. Blizzard is telling it's customers it doesn't need to play the game or sub every time they hide behind this bs nonsense about not needing dailies. Making one path worse than the other is FORCING the better path on the player base. I mean you didn't absolutely have to take that 5% dps talent, you could have taken the shitty utility talents but guess what everyone did?

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-13 at 06:25 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    He's choosing to chase specific rewards that have a specific path. In this case, some recipes. I did the same with Klaxxi rep to get the blacksmithing recipes. Secondly, in 5.1 you can spend your accumulated VP on upgrading your gear.


    He's not choosing anything. I mean if it were a genuine choice then all rewards would have to be equal. Since they aren't clearly then ITS NOT A REAL CHOICE. Just like saying no to the gunman isn't a real choice either. Technically you can say no but who wants to be a fucking hero and get shot.

    Cmooon for years they didn't nothing but tear down road blocks in the game and even in mists they did alot of that as well. They put up a HUGE one and you people don't see the contradictions? Cmoooooon Its sooooo obvious. I mean if they change their position tmmrw due to overwhelming pressure will you still accept it and toe the party line? Cmoooon. Where were all the voices arguing in favor of every progressive decision they made over the course of the games life to increase accessibilty and remove road blocks? Cmooooon.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-13 at 06:30 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Matchu View Post
    Really? Because I chose not to do my Klaxxi dailies yesterday because I just didn't have the time. I don't remember the voice of the Mysterons telling me not to, I just decided 'nope'. In a similar theme, the world didn't end because I chose not to. Today, I could still continue.
    Really? Because I chose not to take the 5% dps talent in wrath and cata because I just didn't feel like it. I don't remember the voice of the Mysterons telling me not to, I just decided nope. In a similer theme the world didn't end because I chose not to. Today, I could still continue. And yet talents had to be changed to offer you people choice.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2012-10-13 at 06:28 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Courierrawr View Post
    You're in a progession raiding guild.. and you're only 3/6 normal mode?

    What.
    You may want to look up the word progression. As long as Dars's guild continues to attempt to get to the next boss they are a progression guild.

    I consider my guild to be a progression guild and we are only 2/6 normal. This is because we aren't pushing for anything more than fun progression. We only started raiding on the 9th, because people have jobs/family/other commitments meaning rushing to 90 wasn't the top of the 'to-do' list so we gave 2 weeks for people to get to 90. We don't push for optimal compositions or min/max-ing. You don't have to be in the top 10% of your class.

  20. #80
    The whole of the first page here (and I suspect a lot of the rest of the thread, I lost the will to read the rest) was a guy pointing out ITS A FUCKING GAME with people insisting they were somehow dragged kicking and screaming and chained to the keyboard until they finished their VP grind for the week.

    When he's pointing out people need to get a grip and those same ppl who should get a grip are trying to explain how they feel compelled and Blizz should make it simpler so they're compulsions are more easily satisfied we really aren't going to get a lot done.

    The VP grind is there to go at if wanted. You could pvp, raid, make a sandwich, watch a film, talk your other half into performing fellatio or any other matter of activities. It's FAR from a compulsory part of your life. If you choose to raid and choose to raid competitively and choose to acquire gear to raid competitively and choose to use the VP grind path to get that gear it's hardly fair to lay the blame for all those choices at someone else' door. Man up and accept some responsibility for your actions and choices or you'll continue to make bad ones.
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