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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    This is where Blizzard goes wrong, trying to cater to the lowest common denominator while making sure players with no self control doesn't feel compelled to do things they don't really want, all this while trying to make the game for a broader audience than any other game on the market, and to top it off they herd players through all "difficulty settings" before starting it all over with a new segment of content.
    Really wouldn't say Blizzard's method is "wrong". They made an incredibly successful, popular and approachable game.

    Appealing to a broader market is a specific strategy. Nothing wrong with it all. It works for many other games. Clearly so for Blizz w/ WoW.

    There is this psychological myth about Warcraft that it was at one point some serious, mature and deep MMO. Erm, it never was. Warcraft from it's RTS days to present has always been tongue & cheek, slightly juvenile and simplistic. That Blizzard have perhaps refined their formula now for the largest/broadest audience- sure.

    Now I totally understand games made with that intention in mind may not be for you personally or a number of core gamers. Though I think is unfair to find fault in a game for targeting a certain or at least catering to non-core gamers. Esp. when it's as successful as WoW or Call of Duty, for example.

    I wouldn't say Wizard 101 "goes wrong" for designing it's content for a lighter & younger audience. It's just not the the game designed & targeted at me is all. Same goes for WoW- it's just not aimed at me.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Really wouldn't say Blizzard's method is "wrong". They made an incredibly successful, popular and approachable game.
    That has lost players ever since the shift in design towards what we have today, hence where they went wrong, at least from my perspective.
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  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    That has lost players ever since the shift in design towards what we have today, hence where they went wrong, at least from my perspective.
    I don't really think so. Their biggest spike was during Wrath of the Lich King- which is when they entered this current direction full swing. The subs/players lost since have been mostly due to greater market fragmentation, very slow content updates and the rise of cheaper games such as MOBAs and F2P MMOs. All of which hit pretty big just at the tail end of Lich King. Of course, sheer age is part of it.

    Way too reductive to rest the lost of players on some casual play mechanic.

    Also, even if WoW lost like... 50% of it's players it would still dominate the market. As half of WoW's player base is larger than several other MMOs combined. They made a wildly successful game running on 8 or so years now.

  4. #44
    Fluffy Kitten Azuri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vice80 View Post
    if they allow easy solo top end gear aquisition, I might consider coming back to rift for a month or two. Well.. Relatively easy. Say, pro raider gets it in 3 weeks, I get it in 5-6 weeks or so.
    Raid armor is obtainable through other methods but the relic versions are not. Raid weapons trinkets etc are not available by any other means then raiding but close equivalents are via other methods. In a nutshell you can get geared well by multiple methods but the BIS is still from the most current raid tier, as it should be imo.
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  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    I don't really think so. Their biggest spike was during Wrath of the Lich King- which is when they entered this current direction full swing. The subs/players lost since have been mostly due to greater market fragmentation, very slow content updates and the rise of cheaper games such as MOBAs and F2P MMOs. All of which hit pretty big just at the tail end of Lich King. Of course, sheer age is part of it.

    Way too reductive to rest the lost of players on some casual play mechanic.

    Also, even if WoW lost like... 50% of it's players it would still dominate the market. As half of WoW's player base is larger than several other MMOs combined. They made a wildly successful game running on 8 or so years now.
    It can be due to other reasons, something we won't know without solid numbers that Blizzard have, hence why I said my perspective. Their peek was at the end of TBC, launch of Wrath gave it a slightly higher peek, same as the launch of Cata did but as far as highest player count outside of launch window it was in TBC.

    If WoW lost half of their western player base they would still dominate but far from what most people would think, going on Mists sales they have around 3,5-4 million western players, the rest are Chinese that only need to use 1 minute every 6 months to count as a "subscriber".
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  6. #46
    3 million is super good in the current market. I can think of several MMOs currently that would be considered very successful with even half of Blizzard's 1/3rd in the Western market. Even half of Blzzard's "half" blows away most other games.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    3 million is super good in the current market. I can think of several MMOs currently that would be considered very successful with even half of Blizzard's 1/3rd in the Western market. Even half of Blzzard's "half" blows away most other games.
    Yeah they would still dominate for sure, most people relate half to 5 million though, I just try to make a habit of educating the masses on the subject when given an opportunity. :P
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  8. #48
    This is a game I wouldn't mind checking out again. I did play it early on, but lost interest rather quickly for some reason. I felt like the game mechanics themselves were quite sluggish (probably the biggest turn-off), but did like the talents, etc. I didn't find it overly complex at all vs. wow.... you should be able to jump in with no real problems.

    No matter what, it's good to see that the game is continuing to do reasonably well.
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  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Vice80 View Post
    if they allow easy solo top end gear aquisition, I might consider coming back to rift for a month or two. Well.. Relatively easy. Say, pro raider gets it in 3 weeks, I get it in 5-6 weeks or so.
    If that were the case there would be little to no reward for players to go through all the hassle of doing group content. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE solo content, and the few games that have awesome epic solo quest chains that reward amazing gear make me all warm and fuzzy inside. But that being said, I'd never want or expect a game to give me rewards from solo play that are equivalent to the highest tier of group play rewards.

    I can't even think of a single game that allows you to do that off the top of my head >.>

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    Yeah they would still dominate for sure, most people relate half to 5 million though, I just try to make a habit of educating the masses on the subject when given an opportunity. :P
    Well, I figure WoW's 10 million subs is somewhat a lie. So I tend to envision 10 mil with soft quotes around it whenever talking about Blizz. Because I think they are lying.

    Also I get what you are saying above initially. Don't mean to be stand-offish on this and if I am coming off that way- apologies. I would even agree to some degree if we are using "wrong direction" in a purely personal context. Though again, Warcraft was always 'not for me' regardless.

    Simply I think it's sort of unfair when folks claim [subjective or not] that a particular game is making a "mistake" by appealing to a broader audience. It is far more likely whatever new incarnation of said game is just not to one's taste or sensibilities.

    When the results of such a strat are successful and for so long- it's just hard to rationalize that as "wrong" or a "mistake".

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    Last edited by Fencers; 2012-10-15 at 04:07 PM.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Simply I think it's sort of unfair when folks claim [subjective or not] that a particular game is making a "mistake" by appealing to a broader audience. It is far more likely whatever new incarnation of said game is just not to one's taste or sensibilities.

    When the results of such a strat are successful and for so long- it's just hard to rationalize that as "wrong" or a "mistake".
    The mistake I'm talking about is mainly that they develop trying to eliminate options in favor of players lacking self control, when put in to context by comparing to Rift who has lots of variations on solo/small group end game you can see why I would consider it a mistake, as I'm quite sure WoW would be way more successful if they had the same amount of depth outside of raids at end game over the past couple of years.

    There are more aspects to it obviously but don't want to go to far off topic here.
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  12. #52
    The Lightbringer Tharkkun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    The mistake I'm talking about is mainly that they develop trying to eliminate options in favor of players lacking self control, when put in to context by comparing to Rift who has lots of variations on solo/small group end game you can see why I would consider it a mistake, as I'm quite sure WoW would be way more successful if they had the same amount of depth outside of raids at end game over the past couple of years.

    There are more aspects to it obviously but don't want to go to far off topic here.
    Well I think Rift is a lot more of a grind than WoW ever was. Many people refer to the grinding feeling as being hard or challenging.

    Blizzard eliminated a lot of the grinding over the past two expansions and that's probably where you refer to player self control. They removed some of those limits with MOP and you can already see people complaining they can't keep up. People have the idea that they must do everything asap...I don't get that feeling when I'm playing Rift.

    But as far as the core game goes for Wow it's the same as it was in beta. After 8 years of doing the same thing and watching your friends come and go the appeal of the game goes away. My guild went from 30 people to a peak of 300 and I think there's maybe 100 people left again. I know two people still. One is my wife.

    People eventually move on and focus on all the bad things...

  13. #53
    All modern MMORPGs are noob friendly. The original family of MMOs were far harder then anything that we consider current. In today's market the hardest MMORPG I have tried out is The Secret World, hands down.

  14. #54
    Rift LFG is not as noob friendly as WoW to make this clear when it comes to the most current tier. Pieces in tier 3 raid gear start at 80 Infernal marks. You get 2 per LFG run and are allowed 7. So in a given week you can get 14.

    Honestly with the expansion just go for the lowest currency. The tier 1 raid gear currency. It will give you leveling set through storm legion and will allow you to complete the new quest for quick upgrades as you goto 60.
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  15. #55
    Warchief WarpedAcorn's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the info everyone. I think I've made my decision to give Rift a go. I just have 2 more easy questions.

    1) When I made a Rift Lite Account I made a Nightblade. If I upgrade to the full version will I still have that character? (I'm 99.99% sure the answer is yes)

    2) Someone mentioned that talents are going to shift before the Expansion releases. Is there a date set on this? I'm thinking I'd rather walk into the game with the Expansion talents in place rather than start learning the game, then re-learning it as soon as I start to figure it out.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Tharkkun View Post
    Blizzard eliminated a lot of the grinding over the past two expansions and that's probably where you refer to player self control. They removed some of those limits with MOP and you can already see people complaining they can't keep up. People have the idea that they must do everything asap...I don't get that feeling when I'm playing Rift.
    Having a multitude of content available to you does not make a grind, Winterspring trainers back in vanilla was a grind, same as Timbermaw or "The Insane". The only once feeling the need to do everything early on is hardcore raiders that want to get an edge, once they raided a couple of lockouts most of the rewards become redundant to them hence it's not really an issue, any other argument to remove the "grind" is just to get the rewards faster for less effort.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tharkkun View Post
    But as far as the core game goes for Wow it's the same as it was in beta. After 8 years of doing the same thing and watching your friends come and go the appeal of the game goes away. My guild went from 30 people to a peak of 300 and I think there's maybe 100 people left again. I know two people still. One is my wife.

    People eventually move on and focus on all the bad things...
    The game changed drastically, it went from linear progression through out the expansion with various rep grinds and other meaningful activities outside of raiding to segmented progression with little to no meaningful activities outside raiding (pre Mists, no idea now), while guild flasks and feasts and all those conveniences are great from one perspective, from another they removed the need to do anything to prepare for raids, and that's just one example.
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  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by WarpedAcorn View Post
    Thanks for all the info everyone. I think I've made my decision to give Rift a go. I just have 2 more easy questions.

    1) When I made a Rift Lite Account I made a Nightblade. If I upgrade to the full version will I still have that character? (I'm 99.99% sure the answer is yes)

    2) Someone mentioned that talents are going to shift before the Expansion releases. Is there a date set on this? I'm thinking I'd rather walk into the game with the Expansion talents in place rather than start learning the game, then re-learning it as soon as I start to figure it out.
    1) Yes. Your account is your account, just the fully capable account as opposed to lite.

    2) 1.11 will be out sometime. I think there's a thread on here giving a date, but I haven't read it. The talents will change with that patch. As it goes, if you're on Lite, you're maxed out at 20. Don't concern yourself too much with learning this or that. You'll get a decent idea of how your toon works, but everything usually changes at end game due to your maxed out talents. Just enjoy the game and don't worry too much about rotations or whatnot until you've reached max level.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by WarpedAcorn View Post
    Thanks for all the info everyone. I think I've made my decision to give Rift a go. I just have 2 more easy questions.

    1) When I made a Rift Lite Account I made a Nightblade. If I upgrade to the full version will I still have that character? (I'm 99.99% sure the answer is yes)

    2) Someone mentioned that talents are going to shift before the Expansion releases. Is there a date set on this? I'm thinking I'd rather walk into the game with the Expansion talents in place rather than start learning the game, then re-learning it as soon as I start to figure it out.
    1. Upgrading simply unlocks any restraints placed upon your account. All the characters, gear and rewards are still yours.

    2. Yep, patch 1.11 will be releasing soon, which is the equivalent to say, WoW patch 5.0 where all the talents are updated, some moved, some removed, and new things added. I can't speak for each and every tree for each and every calling, but it wouldn't hurt to jump in now and get a feel for things. Sure, most of it will change, but generally speaking, an AoE soul will still be an AoE soul revolving around X, Y, and Z talents.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Azuri View Post
    I completely disagree with the above opinion Fencers is a well seasoned gamer that has very small/short learning curve in games. With that being said many a "noob" player has been put off by Rift's soul talent system, currencies, reputations, planner attunement system and multiple content path choices. As another poster said Rift is where you graduate to the next level of MMOs. I've got personal experience with noob players who were just too intimidated with the complexity of the game and went back to wow. If you need some evidence just search "wow talent calculator" then search "Rift talent calculator"
    How is that any different than WoW? WoW basically has 3 classes. Damage, Healer, and Tank and you just pick the class that falls into one of those 3 you wanna play. Also WoW has way, way more reps to grind out. The currencies are easy to keep track of in Rift as well. One is for tradeskill plaques, one for Rift invasion rewards, one for dungeon plaques (Justice Points), and one for raid plaques (valor points). Also how is planar attunement hard? If you play a Mage gee I dunno maybe you wanna choose the one that gives bonuses to int, staff, and wands.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by WarpedAcorn View Post
    Thanks for all the info everyone. I think I've made my decision to give Rift a go. I just have 2 more easy questions.

    1) When I made a Rift Lite Account I made a Nightblade. If I upgrade to the full version will I still have that character? (I'm 99.99% sure the answer is yes)

    2) Someone mentioned that talents are going to shift before the Expansion releases. Is there a date set on this? I'm thinking I'd rather walk into the game with the Expansion talents in place rather than start learning the game, then re-learning it as soon as I start to figure it out.
    1. should be a resounding yes

    2. we expect that the talents will change by thursday the 17th, but we do not, as of yet, have concrete evidence of that, it could be as far as the 24th. My suggestion is keep levelling, if you see those soul "purposes" that were available when you started? more are being introduced with 1.11, and yet more will unlock as you level. the new roles are quite interesting but I won't spoil that for ya
    Last edited by Antipathy; 2012-10-15 at 07:22 PM.
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