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  1. #1

    T14 Raids - 10 mans harder than 25 mans?

    Was looking through wowprogress and noticed something interesting.

    10-mans seem to be harder than 25-mans in this tier (T14 MoP).
    After Paragon 10-man (#1 overall T14 placement) the next highest 10-man guild overall is currently in 18th place.
    This puts all other 10-mans at 3/16H and below.
    There are three 25-man guilds at 6/16H, and five at 5/16H.

    As we all know 10-man guilds have been on the rise since Cataclysm launched, especially after T11. Every tier since then has seen more 10-man guilds in the top 20(+) even if only by marginal numbers. I would have expected more higher placed 10-man guilds - at the very least, more on par with 25-mans.

    Is this high disparity caused by the skill level between guilds in both groups? We all know big names in the 25-man division: Method, Vodka, Blood Legion, etc. Personally I don't know any 10-man guilds by name that are on the same level as these guilds, but in their respected 10-man division. Or maybe it's just too early to tell for sure?

    What do you guys think?

    Mod Warning: While these threads usually don't end well, that's because people feel the need to attack one size or the other. It is perfectly acceptable to believe 10 or 25 is harder, and say why. It is not ok to belittle or attack 10 or 25, and that's what will lead to this thread being closed. Keep this to T14, as that is the subject, and keep it constructive, then this thread will be fine.
    Last edited by Wilderness; 2012-10-13 at 12:02 PM.

  2. #2
    ofcourse 25,
    even first boss 3adds vs 4adds already make huge difference
    hardcore guilds know it and they trying to keep it,
    instead other people going for less path of resistance
    Last edited by Zstr; 2012-10-13 at 09:01 AM.

  3. #3
    1 post, thread was created solely to incite more arguments about 10v25. Lock the thread please, we don't need more of this shit.

  4. #4
    25 are only harder in fights with one thing, /range x

    all rest? just follow the leader raid market or if a encounter with requires split, just follow the 2 raid marked... harder hei... for some it his lol

    25 with high damage? ... you have more healers with CDs, you have more dps classes that can do Raid cds to help the raid, Druids, Shadow priests, .... ... .... ah and offcourse, if the encounter is stack when big damage come even more easier it his on 25 because of the reasons stated

    i'm not saying that 10 is harder, 10 man is more limited depending on what a guild has, Blizzard trys to make equal but 10 man will always be harder and different guild to guild,

    25 only has trouble in /range x fights (ex: Al'akir, ICC Blood-Queen Lana'thel, ...)
    10 depends on your group, ex: try to make Firelands Beth'tilac without a hunter in your 10 man raid, grats your fight just became from difficulty of 3 to 8)
    Last edited by Spike`; 2012-10-13 at 09:40 AM.

  5. #5
    The 10man groups just aren't as skilled as the 25man groups.
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by vizzle View Post
    The 10man groups just aren't as skilled as the 25man groups.
    But no 25m group is as skilled as Paragon.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozendekay View Post
    1 post, thread was created solely to incite more arguments about 10v25. Lock the thread please, we don't need more of this shit.
    I'm not trying to incite anything. I legitimately think 10-mans are harder in this tier based on personal observations. But being an amateur when it comes to raiding I merely wanted to start a discussion (I've raided both 25 and 10-man) I know this topic is a hotspot for trolls and idiots, but don't assume that every thread that has both 10-man and 25-man in the same post is trying to 'incite' a flamewar.


    Would you look at that, 2 posts. Does that make me 100% less likely to start troll threads?


    Quote Originally Posted by Zstr View Post
    ofcourse 25,
    even first boss 3adds vs 4adds already make huge difference
    hardcore guilds know it and they trying to keep it,
    instead other people going for less path of resistance
    I think it is still balanced. 1 more mob is a fair trade off for having 10 more players. Either way they numbers are tuned accordingly for either scenario, even if it doesn't seem so when looking at it across the board (10 players = 3 adds, 25 players = 4 adds, when it should be 25 players = 6+ adds) The only issue here is the clutter that is 25-man raiding, but this comes with the territory and shouldn't pose as an excuse for saying 25-mans are harder (IMO)

    Quote Originally Posted by Spike` View Post
    25 are only harder in fights with one thing, /range x
    Agreed, but lets keep our focus exclusively on T14. Do you think 10 mans are harder than 25 mans this tier?
    Last edited by Deathitis; 2012-10-13 at 10:13 AM.

  8. #8
    It is entirely possible that 10 man progression is cockblocked by one fight that is a lot more difficult compared to the 25 man version. Tuning for two different sized groups is very hard and will always favor one or the other; it really depends on the design of the boss.

    It is also possible that the 25 man guilds that are left are simply more hardcore than the 10 man guilds on average resulting in skewed numbers.

    One thing is however certain Paragon are insanely skilled, and the same goes for those 25 man guilds that have cleared everything or near everything. People should stop comparing things - what goes for top guilds means really nothing in the grand scheme of things - the average raiding guild will struggle with all those encounters regardless of raid size.

  9. #9
    Stood in the Fire Shpetznaz's Avatar
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    Well the world 2nd 10m guild only raids 4 nights a week, which is nothing compared to the big guns like Method and Paragon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aloodanis View Post
    Damn casuals and their vending machines. Back in my day, We had to go all the way from Orgrimmar to Desolace to pick up chips from the store. we had to do an extensive attunement quest to get into the store and we had to assemble 39 other people to fight the many other trash mobs, i mean trash food, to get to the chip isle. Oh and most of us couldn't even afford our epic car mount to drive there, we had to settle for our 60% bike mounts.

  10. #10
    You're comparasion doesn't include time spend to learn and actually to kill the boss?
    Most of the top guild spend even 12 hours per day all week in order to kill a boss.
    10-man aren't harder simply because people dont involve or spend much time in order to kill a boss.
    Comparasion is false because most of the 10-man guild are spending max 4 day raiding while ...the ones right now top 20=25man are spending an amazing amount of time.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkblazer View Post
    You're comparasion doesn't include time spend to learn and actually to kill the boss?
    Most of the top guild spend even 12 hours per day all week in order to kill a boss.
    10-man aren't harder simply because people dont involve or spend much time in order to kill a boss.
    Comparasion is false because most of the 10-man guild are spending max 4 day raiding while ...the ones right now top 20=25man are spending an amazing amount of time.
    This is true, but by the same logic, you can't say that there is a difference in difficulty just because one format has the more, let's say, dedicated players (considering time input).
    You might say, that when comparing player skills, the less time (trys) you need, the better the players are. (but only comparing the same raid size obviously)
    On the other hand, you can also not say, that because 25's in general require more time/trys, that it is intrinsic harder than 10's.

    So let's put it that way: Player skill is only comparable when you compare the amounts of trys one group spends to down a boss compared to another group who downs the same boss. By that logic, players who need 50 trys to kill a boss are worse than players who only need 10 trys, even if the one group makes 50 trys in 1 day, and the other 10 trys in 3 days.
    But on the time sheet, it looks like that group 1 (50 trys) is better, because they downed the boss 2 days before group 2 (10 trys)
    Also you need to put into consideration setup/gear differences.
    So shortly; difficulty discussion will always end in flamewar because you can not compare and evaluate all factors includes between two raiding groups.

  12. #12
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilentStocket View Post
    But no 25m group is as skilled as Paragon.
    That is correct, it is because they are/were 25-man caliber players and that's why they absolutely blitzed the 10-man competition as well as the 25-man (as it's more difficult).

    Even if they remained 25-man with their previous roster they may have scraped world first but they said themselves they just couldn't get the amount of skilled players to continue in 25-man.

  13. #13
    Comparing the first 6 bosses, well ones that I have experience with.

    Dogs- Yes 10m has 1 less, and others say that this is a fair trade off, but it completely nullifies one aspect of the fight. You two tank it on 10m, and after the Overload goes off, one of two things can happen. Either the tank tanking two mobs, continues to tank those same two mobs, or the tank tanking one mob taunts the recently Overloaded mob to him. Thats it, there is nothing else to worry about tanking wise. Instead of on 25m where you are constantly taunting every 20 or so seconds.

    Feng- Arcane phase is much easier on 10m, as you can all basically just sit within 6 yards of Feng. There doesn't need to be as much coordination as there does on 25m.

    Totem Boss- Can't really compare these two as I have no experience.

    Spirit Kings- Same as Totem Boss

    Elegon- First week in raids our 25m wiped to him for four hours with only one good attempt into P3, if you didn't stack your group for the burst needed for charges, which most guilds can't do, then you won't get a high enough stack thats needed to kill him. We made a 10m a couple days later to insure that we unlocked Heroics for the next week, went in and beat the enrage by 1.5 minutes, completely destroying Elegon. Charges are pretty much a non factor on 10m.

    Will of the Emps- I would say that these fights are similar on both, if not easier on 25m. Our 10m group used pretty much the worst setup possible for it, which made it incredibly hard, 3 tanks, 3 healers, and no one that could double dot. The adds were never an issue but we killed it about 30-45 seconds after the soft enrage, due to our bad setup. This week we killed him on 25m, with only the 10 people from the 10m having experience, and we killed it in 3 attempts. More healing cd's made the gas phase pretty much a non issue, being able to sit melee on the boss full time also made DPS a joke as well.

    So after comparing 4 of the 6 bosses, from my experience at least, I see that three out of those four are much easier on 10m, just from a stragetic point of view, with the final boss being easier on 25m. Again these are just my views.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Pedoso View Post
    Comparing the first 6 bosses, well ones that I have experience with.

    Dogs- Yes 10m has 1 less, and others say that this is a fair trade off, but it completely nullifies one aspect of the fight. You two tank it on 10m, and after the Overload goes off, one of two things can happen. Either the tank tanking two mobs, continues to tank those same two mobs, or the tank tanking one mob taunts the recently Overloaded mob to him. Thats it, there is nothing else to worry about tanking wise. Instead of on 25m where you are constantly taunting every 20 or so seconds.

    Feng- Arcane phase is much easier on 10m, as you can all basically just sit within 6 yards of Feng. There doesn't need to be as much coordination as there does on 25m.

    Totem Boss- Can't really compare these two as I have no experience.

    Spirit Kings- Same as Totem Boss

    Elegon- First week in raids our 25m wiped to him for four hours with only one good attempt into P3, if you didn't stack your group for the burst needed for charges, which most guilds can't do, then you won't get a high enough stack thats needed to kill him. We made a 10m a couple days later to insure that we unlocked Heroics for the next week, went in and beat the enrage by 1.5 minutes, completely destroying Elegon. Charges are pretty much a non factor on 10m.

    Will of the Emps- I would say that these fights are similar on both, if not easier on 25m. Our 10m group used pretty much the worst setup possible for it, which made it incredibly hard, 3 tanks, 3 healers, and no one that could double dot. The adds were never an issue but we killed it about 30-45 seconds after the soft enrage, due to our bad setup. This week we killed him on 25m, with only the 10 people from the 10m having experience, and we killed it in 3 attempts. More healing cd's made the gas phase pretty much a non issue, being able to sit melee on the boss full time also made DPS a joke as well.

    So after comparing 4 of the 6 bosses, from my experience at least, I see that three out of those four are much easier on 10m, just from a stragetic point of view, with the final boss being easier on 25m. Again these are just my views.
    agree with all cept 1st,3rd. 1st boss EVERYONE i know in 25man guilds say that boss is just a loot pinata, id say its harder on 10man than 25. totem boss from my own experience and that of friends i know in both 10 and 25 guilds progressing say 10man is harder.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by kaamila View Post
    agree with all cept 1st,3rd. 1st boss EVERYONE i know in 25man guilds say that boss is just a loot pinata, id say its harder on 10man than 25. totem boss from my own experience and that of friends i know in both 10 and 25 guilds progressing say 10man is harder.
    At least for heroic, 10m seems much easier than 25m. 25m normal is a piñata.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Pedoso View Post
    At least for heroic, 10m seems much easier than 25m. 25m normal is a piñata.
    talking about heroic lol. the people i talk to(both healers and dps) say heroic stoneguard on 25man is a breeze and agree that 10man is harder for that fight. i think overall 25man is harder except for a 2 maybe 3 fights. although im one of the people that dont put 10 and 25 together since its a different raid size(different brackets), when we kill a boss i look at where my guild is for 10mans.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by kaamila View Post
    talking about heroic lol. the people i talk to(both healers and dps) say heroic stoneguard on 25man is a breeze and agree that 10man is harder for that fight. i think overall 25man is harder except for a 2 maybe 3 fights. although im one of the people that dont put 10 and 25 together since its a different raid size(different brackets), when we kill a boss i look at where my guild is for 10mans.
    What a terrible load of bull anecdotal evidence, I guess these friends of yours are also magic and have had two heroic load outs to compare?

  18. #18
    Scarab Lord Izenhart's Avatar
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    Why didn't you also take your time to notice that tons of guilds are 5/6 in 25men but 1/6 in HC in 25 men (or wiping on it) ?

    Because they went into 10men Emperor to 1shot him so that they'd have unlocked the 25men Heroic version.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Izenhart View Post
    Why didn't you also take your time to notice that tons of guilds are 5/6 in 25men but 1/6 in HC in 25 men (or wiping on it) ?

    Because they went into 10men Emperor to 1shot him so that they'd have unlocked the 25men Heroic version.
    People who cannot even kill normal modes are in no position to judge the difficulty of heroic modes.

  20. #20
    You can't compare 10 and 25 man difficulty on the basis of what the elite guilds play. Historically the elite guilds have been 25 man guilds and have recruited to keep stay that way. Because 25 man was viewed as the more challenging setting.

    If a guild came out saying that they can clear stuff faster in 25 man then 10 man or vica versa, when stuff is on farm mode, then it would be a strong indication that there was a difference in difficulty between the formats.

    But you can't say that because the elite are killing stuff in 25 man that 10 man is harder.

    p.s. i think it is wrong to just close down a subject about difference in difficulty because it might be inconvenient for some or because they have already taken part in such a discussion. Although a lot of people that show up in these threads or familiar to the discussion other people might just have joined mmo-champions forums and would like to discuss it or they might just recently have developed an interrest in the subject.
    Last edited by Dax75; 2012-10-13 at 06:55 PM.

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