T14 Raids - 10 mans harder than 25 mans?

[Tomana]

It is entirely possible that 10man cutting edge heroics are harder than 25 man heroics, we can't really do stats from a handful of top world guilds.
However, it is clear that 10 normals are easier than 25 normals given how quicker 10 man plowed through them compared to 25 man guilds.

[Twosteps]

Did 3/6 on 10m in the first week of raiding and 6/6 on 25m this week - about all I've really observed is that Gara'jal seems significantly easier on 25m compared to 10m. Stone Guard and Feng felt about equally tuned, and I can't compare the last 3 bosses.

[Janir]

Why you guys always have to make topics like these..?

On topic: I think that 10man is a bit harder in two first bosses than 25man not much but a bit dunno about fights after stone guard and feng..

[KaPe]

I still don't understand how Stone Guard can be considered harder in 10 man. You have about 50% chance to remove one of two dangerous bosses in this fight - Jasper or Cobalt. Obviously controlling 4 bosses with just 2 tanks would be pretty much impossible, bit this simply means that a little luck can trivialize the fight. Unless people are dying from Amethyst Pools, which is just silly.

[Keashaa]

I still don't understand how Stone Guard can be considered harder in 10 man. You have about 50% chance to remove one of two dangerous bosses in this fight - Amethyst or Cobalt. Obviously controlling 4 bosses with just 2 tanks would be pretty much impossible, bit this simply means that a little luck can trivialize the fight. Unless people are dying from Amethyst Pools, which is just silly.

/fixed
How do you really think that Jasper is a dangerous boss? It's really easy to deal with...

[KaPe]

/fixed
How do you really think that Jasper is a dangerous boss? It's really easy to deal with...

But Amethyst is just small, stationary void zones? They don't even tick that hard. Jasper can be quite Painful, forces grouping thus making Amethyst/Cobalt more dangerous and makes it harder to energize the floor.

Either way, the point remains the same - there are only 3 out of 4 abilities present. If those abilities were equally dangerous, it would make no difference. But they aren't. I mean, I'm not commenting on some other bosses, which could be much harder on 10 man, but I can't see that about Stone Guardians.

It's like Halfus normal vs heroic, except extended on raid sizes instead of difficulties.

[adelerollsinthedeep]

the 25 man guilds who have kills have been playing 16-20 hours a day every day until the instance was cleared

show me a 10 man guild other than paragon who is doing the same and you may have a point. 10 man raiders aren't trying. 25 man raiders are. the end.

[Shmeh]

Most of you people that talk about dropping to 10 to get a kill are completely ignoring the fact that you're likely bringing 10 of your best players out of your 25 man pool. I'd wager that you're doing so much better on 10 man because you're dropping the problem players.

The 10man groups just aren't as skilled as the 25man groups.

Are your Cracked articles, blog, and Twitter as ignorant as this post?

[facerollin]

the 25 man guilds who have kills have been playing 16-20 hours a day every day until the instance was cleared

show me a 10 man guild other than paragon who is doing the same and you may have a point. 10 man raiders aren't trying. 25 man raiders are. the end.

Only Paragon have been raiding 10's hardcore and floored everyone, 10's is significantly easier this tier except for Garajal(Which everyone is stuck on) simply because tanks get globalled by RNG, 25m tanks can get globalled but because of the random targetting, they have a much lower chance of getting hit by the spirit blasts.

Garajal is only "harder" on 10's because of poor fight design, the rest is harder on 25's.

Not to mention the plethora of guilds that switched to 10's to unlock heroics this tier..

[KaPe]

Having two explode is pretty much not an issue in 25. The hardest part about 25 seems to be the organization required. Getting 25-30+ people organized and prepared is a much bigger task.

500k explosion is an instant wipe on Heroic, I don't see how is that 'not an issue'. And if we're talking normal, then the explosion isn't lethal in 10 man, either, so "it's not a big deal", right?

[Seriss]

Two things are easier on 25-man Stone Guard heroic than on 10-man:

1. Lighting up tiles. In 25-man, you can have some 10 people light up the entire room. This gives extreme nice mana regen (I'm a healer, I don't care about +dmg components :P ).

2. When chains are up, you've got more people who can fill in for your handful of designated tile-lighters. 10-man has a logistics problem here. Too few people to fill in the gaps with tank healers being fairly stationary due to spam-healing the tank. Being linked to a tank healer effectively removes that dps from the equation in a 10-man raid, possibly for a long time too. And you have 3 chains up. Well, if you have to deal with Jasper that week.


Things easier to handle on 10-man:

1. One mob less, one ability less to deal with than 25-man. Picked at random every week - may be an easier combo, may be a harder combo. So you get several different encounters over the course of the months. 25-man always has the same encounter. May be an advantage as you never have to adjust to something different. May be a disadvantage as a 10-man may get lucky and not get that stupid Cobalt (that's the one that I hate the most, even more than the fire chains that screw up tile-lighting - other people may find a different one the most annoying).

2. Only 2 tanks need to taunt off of each other. Though seriously... If 3 tanks can't decide which one of them has to taunt the mob that has 0 energy, they have bigger problems than 25-man (supposedly?) being harder.



Logistics are what makes this encounter a hassle for 10-man. Too few hands to do all the work as soon as you randomly have your hands full with another encounter mechanic that doesn't get along with your task. In 25s, you shout and have 5 people ready to pick up where you left off. In 10s... well, maybe 1 or 2, though even that may be problematic, depending on RNG (and we all know how it can be a bitch). If RNG loves you, everything will go all the more smoothly though.

And from healer POV: I've always found 25-mans easier to heal because I feel that you simply have more people on the job, more HoTs flying around and stuff. MoP is the first expansion that I'm doing 10-mans on a more competitive level with some people that I love to bits. Before that, I'd done 25-mans since BC and only stuck my nose into 10-man heroics on my better alts. I just feel that I, as a healer, carry way more responsibility now, even though I'm taking care of fewer people.

The overall difficulty is probably largely the same between the two raid sizes. I just feel that the difficulties lie in different aspects of the encounter.

[psiko74]

I don't have any experience with heroic modes yet, but last night after wiping for hours on 25man Will of the Emperor we split up and 1 shot the fight on 10man.

[Deleted]

I think 10 mans are harder. In 25 you have a lot more margin for errors and you can recover from them easily and honestly, after watching few 10 and 25 videos it's pretty sad how many errors you can do in 25's and still kill the boss.

In the other hand i feel like 25's are more interesting, but harder? No. Maybe the fact that they are harder to organize make them harder and you need to find those 20 players that can move from the black circle thingy on the floor from the big roster of big guilds. But they are equally challenging, only couple fights are harder on 10.

[Tingol]

Because controlling when the bosses explode is much harder with three. When you have 4 bosses and 2 tanked out by themselves its much easier to taunt swap to get the lower boss energy in with the one you want to explode. Having two explode is pretty much not an issue in 25. The hardest part about 25 seems to be the organization required. Getting 25-30+ people organized and prepared is a much bigger task.

lol. have you even seen the fight on heroic? explosion one shots everyone. Also it is way easier to taunt on 10 man since the one that just exploded will have 0 energy and you always get one that you need to explode to that spot

[G l o w y r m]

This tier specifically 10 man happens to be easier. There were fights in the past where 10 mans were harder but it was usually due to number tuning. It's rarer that a fight is easier on 10 man simply due to the mechanics but that has happened as well.

Like I said though, right now 10 man is easier. Garajal The Spiritbinder is a good example.

[tatortotem]

This tier specifically 10 man happens to be easier. There were fights in the past where 10 mans were harder but it was usually due to number tuning. It's rarer that a fight is easier on 10 man simply due to the mechanics but that has happened as well.

Like I said though, right now 10 man is easier. Garajal The Spiritbinder is a good example.

How did you even come up with Spiritbinder being easier on 10 man? I know it feels nice to say that 10 man is easier to make yourself feel better about your 25 man kill, but from all that I've seen Spiritbinder is a bad example. At least give some reasons why you think its easier.

That being said, I believe the difficulty balance between 10 and 25 is very good so far. Like usual, more of the fights are "harder" on 25, but 10 man is no cakewalk either. If you are in a 25 man and you think you can waltz into 10 man and double your progression, you are sorely mistaken.

[Toxigen]

I'd like to point out that only 2 out of 14 guilds that are 6/6 heroic are 10 man.

Out of the top 100 guilds in the world, 48 are 25 man.

This is rather incredible given the staggering population difference between 10 and 25 man raiders (if anyone could provide the numbers, we could illustrate just how impressive that is).

In addition, Seita, Paragon's GM, said the following in an interview with Manaflask:

Raiding 10man was fun, would have been nice if the bosses were a bit harder and if we could have had some competition from the other 10man guilds.

Which brings me to the following conclusion: there is a much larger concentration of strong players in 25 man raiding guilds...hypothesis seems to be correct now.

25 mans are STILL where the vast majority of talent resides. I'm not talking "I read EJ and I'm so awesome," mediocrity, I mean world-class / top-notch players that continue to challenge Blizzard to make half-decent encounters. Without us, you'd have nothing but a stinking pile of shit for raid content. You can thank us later.

[Smoopie]

Was looking through wowprogress and noticed something interesting. .[/COLOR]

The reason more 25 man heroics have been cleared is a simple one, more raiders prefer 25. Paragon themselves said they would be raiding 25 if they could field a team. 25 has been the focus for so long, most of the skilled players still raid 25. You don’t have many 10 man guilds with the same caliber.

[Bullarkie]

So ? you are bads who cannot down the Boss on 25 man switch to 10man knowing everything about the Fight already not having to figure a single shit out and think its easier ? You would have wiped the same amount on 10man if you hadnt done it on 25man... And one more thing, The Boss is harder on 10 heroic than 25man

It's very easy to tell by your post that you're not well educated.

Please stop posting.

[vMoPPy]

The only reason that 25 mans are harder is because you need to get 25 people that are competent and skillfull enough to raid with you, as well as competent enough to not fuck up the mechanics.

And personally, this might not be a part in the current top ranked guild standings, but I feel that the reason why you are seeing more top ranked guilds as 25-mans is because the majority of the amazing and top ranked guilds are 25-man.