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  1. #61
    So that talk about glyphs. Glyphs and talents are something that people need to be able to understand and change according to the encounter and your level of progression. Almost every glyph is based on your raid, your raid's healers, your raid awareness, your raid's strategy, the encounter, etc. etc. In my personal opinion there are really no set Glyphs that you should always have, just because that is the "best" glyph. At least not for a shadow priest anyways. In most situations there are certain ones that are just necessary. However you have to consider those factors that allows you survive, help your healers mana, and/or help your DPS. I carry at least 20 tomes of clear mind on me during progression to allow for switches of glyphs and talents when needed. Example: If I'm getting hit really hard and hit a lot (i.e Heroic Gara'jal), then I need to use something to help me survive more hits so I don't die or don't run my healers' mana dry.

    In the obvious sense, Glyphed MF is a DPS boost. However, like I said before, there are glyphs that are much more valuable depending on where you are at in progression and what you're progressing on. My suggestion is, don't fall into the habit of saying "This Glyph is a must have because it just is." Also good luck to everyone in progression

  2. #62
    Like, I'm just gonna state the obvious and say this:
    Before you post a video regarding how people can maximize their dps as shadow, l2p it yourself before trying to teach others. You may confuse new shadow priests.

    Your MF clipping is way off, get gnosis, for real.
    You have fancy WA telling you your ICDs, yet, you state to NEVER delay a 3orb DP?
    Wasting globals on PW:S is maximizing dps, when you would've been fine with the mf glyph?
    I could go on and on and on and on, but I cba.

    Meh.
    Hi I'm Shadow
    Priest Mage Druid

  3. #63
    You made a great video! I love seeing the UI setup of other shadow priests that have really put time into making it a tool to increase their DPS. I love Weak Auras, and I may make a few tweaks to mine based on what I've seen with your UI! Thank you.

    I do have a few comments, though. First, you said you cast DP immediately after you reach 3 orbs with no delay. That's actually not optimal. As long as you cast it before you're a GCD away from MB or SWD coming off CD (or the boss isn't a handful of seconds from death), there is no loss in DPS to delay DP. Think about it. It doesn't have a CD that you want to use asap. It's only orbs, and you're not missing maximizing your orbs unless you're delaying MB or SWD. If you need to refresh your SWP or VT, or you have FDCL/DI procs to use, then do those things before hitting DP. It's a DPS gain, since you lose nothing by delaying DP until MB/SWD is 1 gcd away from becoming ready again.

    Also, FDCL and DI compete with each other a lot, and DI can diminish FDCL's dps gain. I strongly prefer ToF most of the time. ToF is very strong single target, too, and mainly falls behind DI on fights with multi dotting targets that do not die quickly. So for MSV, that's just the first boss. Other fights with multiple targets in MSV favor ToF because they die often enough to give a very high ToF up time. And for single target, ToF is also stronger.

    Glyph of Mind Flay is also a DPS gain when movement is concerned. It's not the biggest thing in the world, but, like speed enchants to boots, it does help. Our survivability is already pretty strong comparatively, imo.

    Just a few thoughts I had.

  4. #64
    Dreadlord Rife's Avatar
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    So many apparently hardcore raiders in here saying they are or have been ranking top 20/25 without tracking ICD's need to realise that unless you're rank 1 you have room for improvement. Everyone who is ranking 20+ on logs obviously has the raid mechanics and rotation down pat.

    What is left, the difference between rank 20 and rank 1, is tracking and utilizing ICD's properaly (finely tuning play), small gear differences and RNG.

    Anyone who wants to get the highest DPS they can is going to be tracking ICD's. Anyone who's ranking top 3 on WoL is going to be doing everything rank 10 is doing except also tracking ICD's and other such things that eek that extra DPS from a fight.

    I don't see why this is an actual arguement though. We've got world first kills just succeeding with one tank alive and pushing that final 100k damage with the entire raid dead and getting the kill. We've got world first kills beating enrage timers by 10 seconds on multiple fights.

    Which moron is really going to tell me that calling out a raid mechanic that is already going to be getting called out is a better use of your time compared to pulling an extra few hundred/thousand DPS on a fight that can be the difference between a 1% wipe and a kill.

    If Blood Legions spriest had called out a few more things on vent and pulled 1k less DPS over that fight they would not have got that world first kill. This discussion is revolving around top WoL rankings and bleeding edge guilds. Things like tracking ICD's is exactly what makes guilds bleeding edge and world ranked. It's what separates sever first kills and world first kills, world rank 1 and rank 20.

    I feel I have to say though, obviously, that the finely tuned play like tracking ICD's should be left for when everything else is perfected. Once you've got the strat down, know the fight and your rotation, THEN you start tracking ICD's and calculating DoTing break points for those 2 target switches and setting a seperate timer to remind yourself to start doing that thing 10 seconds early so you're perfectly set for the next mechanic etc. If you're not skilled/comfortable enough with the fight then neglect those things until you've got the basics mastered.

    If you cannot handle juggling that many things at once then forget about it entirely. Focus on the fight and your basic rotation and be happy with a top 20 parse rather than a top 3 parse.

  5. #65
    I think some people ehre are really overvaluing the difference that tracking ICDs makes. The difference between top 50 and top 5 is often raid dps (higher blood lust + potion up time), pure crit/mastery proc RNG, not having to hymn of hope (or DH in previous tiers) or gear. You should be delaying DP until just before MB/SWD unless a proc is already up anyway, and you shouldn't be wasting an orb or not using MB/SWD because your ICD is almost up and you want to wait for it. You shouldn't be leaving dots off your target because your ICD is almost back up and you want to wait for it to proc. Tracking ICDs is a good thing, but it really shouldn't be a major factor in your spell choice that often. I say this with a solid top 5 world parse in many fights throughout t11, t12 and t13, with top percentiles in t14 so far as well, all while being the raid leader of a 25-man raiding guild the entire time (i.e. calling out *everything* every fight).

    Tracking ICDs is valuable, but somehow people seem to think it increases your damage by huge amounts. Over the course of a fight, it's one of those tiny gains that adds up if you keep doing everything you can to get every tiny gain possible. IMO.
    Last edited by Mctriple; 2012-10-22 at 01:26 PM.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Mctriple View Post
    I think some people ehre are really overvaluing the difference that tracking ICDs makes. The difference between top 50 and top 5 is often raid dps (higher blood lust + potion up time), pure crit/mastery proc RNG, not having to hymn of hope (or DH in previous tiers) or gear. You should be delaying DP until just before MB/SWD unless a proc is already up anyway, and you shouldn't be wasting an orb or not using MB/SWD because your ICD is almost up and you want to wait for it. You shouldn't be leaving dots off your target because your ICD is almost back up and you want to wait for it to proc. Tracking ICDs is a good thing, but it really shouldn't be a major factor in your spell choice that often. I say this with a solid top 5 world parse in many fights throughout t11, t12 and t13, with top percentiles in t14 so far as well, all while being the raid leader of a 25-man raiding guild the entire time (i.e. calling out *everything* every fight).

    Tracking ICDs is valuable, but somehow people seem to think it increases your damage by huge amounts. Over the course of a fight, it's one of those tiny gains that adds up if you keep doing everything you can to get every tiny gain possible. IMO.

    I did 2 20mil samples on a raid dummy the other day:


    Test 1) Maniacal icd tracking placing lowest priority on 'clipping MF properly', casting dots early based on procs.

    Test 2) Clipping MF 'properly' (waiting a split second for the 2nd tick before casting something else, or completing the channel if close; this is proper clipping, yea?), no icd tracking, no early dot applications.


    The result: 48K DPS tracking icds and clipping MF whenever, vs 44K DPS, roughly a 10% difference. This is only 1 sampling, so take it for what its worth.

    Anyone else actually try and compare in-game?

    In regards to using DP right after MBx3, you are right, you don't have to do this, and there are many times that I don't. The message I was trying to convey is that you want to be ready to use something without delay the moment your MB hits, whether its the first or third one. DP fits very nicely as that 'something' to use as your 3-orb MB hits. Its a no-brainer 90% of the time, and I like no-brainers.

    When it comes to prioritizing time for learning and practicing things for raid, this seems to work best for me:

    Knowing raid mechanics>executing strategy>staying alive>tight rotation>maxing dps

    I'd bet there are way too many people who go about this in the reverse order.

    2-night progression raiding: http://www.fullspectrumguild.com
    Shadow-Raid Blog: http://shadow-raid.blogspot.com/

  7. #67
    Dreadlord Rife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burchoid View Post
    When it comes to prioritizing time for learning and practicing things for raid, this seems to work best for me:

    Knowing raid mechanics>executing strategy>staying alive>tight rotation>maxing dps
    Agree with that order.

    This is a "Maxing Shadow Priest DPS" thread after all though, and a few hundred or thousand extra DPS if you can manage it while maintaining everything else can make a difference.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Burchoid View Post
    I did 2 20mil samples on a raid dummy the other day:


    Test 1) Maniacal icd tracking placing lowest priority on 'clipping MF properly', casting dots early based on procs.

    Test 2) Clipping MF 'properly' (waiting a split second for the 2nd tick before casting something else, or completing the channel if close; this is proper clipping, yea?), no icd tracking, no early dot applications.


    The result: 48K DPS tracking icds and clipping MF whenever, vs 44K DPS, roughly a 10% difference. This is only 1 sampling, so take it for what its worth.

    Anyone else actually try and compare in-game?

    In regards to using DP right after MBx3, you are right, you don't have to do this, and there are many times that I don't. The message I was trying to convey is that you want to be ready to use something without delay the moment your MB hits, whether its the first or third one. DP fits very nicely as that 'something' to use as your 3-orb MB hits. Its a no-brainer 90% of the time, and I like no-brainers.

    When it comes to prioritizing time for learning and practicing things for raid, this seems to work best for me:

    Knowing raid mechanics>executing strategy>staying alive>tight rotation>maxing dps

    I'd bet there are way too many people who go about this in the reverse order.
    With all due respect, 1 sample of each with even a 20% difference is no evidence at all. There's a reason most people run simcraft with at LEAST 10,000 iterations. I prefer 25,000, though the difference is minimal. You simply can't make any statistical inferences with just a handful of samples. Even if you did 10 runs on a dummy each way (20 total), you couldn't accurately draw any conclusions.

    I fully agree that knowing the fight and strategy are absolutely crucial to doing well. I raid lead, and while it can sometimes hurt my DPS considerably to call everything out, at the same time, I know the ins and outs of the fight and our strategy better than anybody else, so I have a balancing advantage in that respect (though every raid leader's dream is that every raider shows up knowing every fight just as well for the 1st pull). Using every GCD possible with reasonable accuracy of optimum priority (ie you can use DP immediately after every time. A tiny delay on something else that is more optimal doesn't crush your DPS. IMO!

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Rife View Post
    Agree with that order.

    This is a "Maxing Shadow Priest DPS" thread after all though, and a few hundred or thousand extra DPS if you can manage it while maintaining everything else can make a difference.
    True. I'll be making a better video soon summarizing a lot of the finer details I've gotten from y'all. I do appreciate the feedback, both negative and positive. Its hard to gather all the RIGHT and IMPORTANT information on stuff like this in one place.

    2-night progression raiding: http://www.fullspectrumguild.com
    Shadow-Raid Blog: http://shadow-raid.blogspot.com/

  10. #70
    Dreadlord Rife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burchoid View Post
    True. I'll be making a better video soon summarizing a lot of the finer details I've gotten from y'all. I do appreciate the feedback, both negative and positive. Its hard to gather all the RIGHT and IMPORTANT information on stuff like this in one place.
    Kudos for your work so far. Keep it up.

  11. #71
    The Lightbringer Keosen's Avatar
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    How do you tracking Windsong by the way?
    Does it have an ICD per proc or per kind of proc?
    ALso is there a way to show tooltip on WA bars? Since you have to know what kind of Windsong proc is about to fire since their weights greatly vary.

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