Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst ...
2
3
4
5
LastLast
  1. #61
    As your raid leader, there is no reason I'd put anyone else but you as DPS, because you're the highest. Period.

    If there's anyone to blame, it's the other healers that fail at DPS, not the leader. He's just doing what is best for the progression of the raid.

    Finally, your case is very weird :P. In my guild, me and the other healers fight over the DPS spot on the 2-heal fights (we 3-heal the first two, for some reason) ALL the time. I end up getting it 90% of the time though because I got lucky and got both of my 489 weapons for enhance on the first week ^_^.

  2. #62
    Bloodsail Admiral Ethes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Tokyo, Japan (日本東京)
    Posts
    1,137
    Dear OP,

    As you've stated multiple times, you don't enjoy playing a DPS-spec despite the fact that this is in the best interest of your guild. This of course, is fine. Now instead of complaining about the fact that you're not willing I suggest you think towards a solution. As you've stated, the other healers can't go DPS as they're not good enough at that particular role. Meaning you will have to for the sake of the guild.

    Now a lot of people say, put your foot down and tell them you're only going to play healer. I'm not exactly aware of how serious your guild is, but I can tell you that this will most likely not have a positive result for you. Either the whole guild suffers in a way (not being able to kill bosses due to lack of dps or not being able to raid at all due to lack of dps, etc), you will get replaced or (not very likely, but possible) one of the other healers improves the his/her dps. Also, keep in mind that as a shaman you have the ability to play ranged dps which paladins and monks can't. The point being that ranged dps is usually favored over melee!

    Now, what I suggest you do is to ask your raid leader in a nice way that, because you don't enjoy playing a dps spec he recruits an additional dps so you can play full-time healer. Please bear in mind though, that due to this roster change this will mean that you have to share your raidspot with the other healers and might be benched more often. Also note that (even if your raids dps sucks this bad and could do with a better player), dps players will have to share a spot. Meaning your raidleader might refuse your request as it means gearing up more people and benching more people which is an unwanted situation generally.

    However, I would put your foot down when it comes down to gear. You're main spec healer, off spec dps. So in order to stay competitive on the healing side you will need to get 4p, etc. Or a situation will happen like you described that happened during DS which is unwanted for all parties. Therefore prioritising gear for your main spec over gear for your off spec is definitly the way to go.

    To end, did the person who recruited you for the raid team asked you when he recruited you if you'd be okay playing dps from time to time? As that would've been the way to go in my opinion.

  3. #63
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Waterloo, ON
    Posts
    23,016
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryanlol View Post
    In this situation, wouldn't everyone who didn't reroll, relevel, and regear a hybrid class to match this requirement also be considered selfish? Why should someone have the sole burden just because of the class they chose? Anyone else can play that class or any other class that is hybrid. It's not selfish to have a playstyle you're good at and stick with it.

    What's selfish is other people refusing to put in work and requiring more of those who are able and willing.
    Seriously?

    You're comparing a few seconds of cast time as you swap talent specs with dozens of hours spent leveling a new class, and the ongoing effort of running twice as many raids, quite possibly as PUGs unless your guild is already running multiple raid groups on separate nights for this purpose.

    There's nothing wrong with specialization, but if your class can do more than one thing, you should know how to do them. The same way if you've got a Mage player, and Arcane is a terrible spec for the raid, he should be swapping to a spec that's better. This already happens. It's been happening for years. Hybrids are no different. Most guilds don't let any player, of any class, state "I only play this one spec, ever, regardless of what would be best for the raid".

  4. #64
    I'm amazed that it's this way round, usually on my shaman I'm forced to heal because we don't have enough healers, dps isn't an issue at all.

    Get your guild to recruit some more dps (they're everywhere, like a plague) and unfortunately you'll have to sift through the crap at the bottom of the river to find the few rare golden people you need, but then you'll have decent, competant dps and you'll be allowed to play Green bar Whack-a-mole.
    Raining Pandarens because of the bouncy racial?
    Quote Originally Posted by rokatoro View Post
    Some Might say it was... (•_•).....( •_•)>⌐■-■....(⌐■_■) A heavy Rain.
    I'm so sorry ;_;

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Barky View Post
    I'm amazed that it's this way round, usually on my shaman I'm forced to heal because we don't have enough healers, dps isn't an issue at all.

    Get your guild to recruit some more dps (they're everywhere, like a plague) and unfortunately you'll have to sift through the crap at the bottom of the river to find the few rare golden people you need, but then you'll have decent, competant dps and you'll be allowed to play Green bar Whack-a-mole.
    I dont think its a case of not having enough dps. More that there are sum fights that are 2 healed and sum that are 3 healed. Thus the problem being that on these 2 heal fights either a healer has to sit out for a dps to come in or the healer which is the op in this situation to go dps.

  6. #66
    My guild is more of the "barely get through the content while it is still relevant" type and we still all have to do things like this. I think last tier 8 of the 10 of us used multiple specs and every single person in our main raiding team was asked to bring an alt. of some sort at some point during progression raiding. Between different fight requirements and attendance issues you can either gear up multiple specs and characters or have 20 people for 10 spots and sit half the time. I suppose a high end guild can just recruit people who will happily sit for months in order to get a shot one night, but we don't have that luxury.

  7. #67
    Start sucking at dps then. Kinda fail that your guildmates can't take on the job of using dual spec.

  8. #68
    As a healer in general you want to have a DPS set ready to go since the amount of healers needed on a fight will vary immensly. The other thing is that the tier bonus this time around are very lame if your not big into single target healing. so you can shoot for elemental gear with spirit right off the bat

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by shammypie View Post
    As a healer in general you want to have a DPS set ready to go since the amount of healers needed on a fight will vary immensly. The other thing is that the tier bonus this time around are very lame if your not big into single target healing. so you can shoot for elemental gear with spirit right off the bat
    Why do I feel like eating up my own Shaman when reading your name, soo cute.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    What you're saying is that you can either;
    1> Raid with your guild as Resto and fail to get kills because the other healers can't DPS properly,
    2> Raid with your guild but swap to Elemental like you don't want to but get bosses down, or
    3> Fire your current two healers and recruit two new healers who can actually DPS too, or
    4> Don't raid with your current guild. Find a new one.

    We've been saying the same thing. You seem to want an option 5;
    5> Raid with your guild as Resto and have the other healers get magically better at DPS without you having to do anything to deal with the issue yourself.

    Option 5 is a fiction and doesn't exist. You have to stick to options 1-4. None of them are without consequences, but that's life; there are always consequences to your choices. You've said you can't accept Option 2, and Option 1 isn't acceptable either, so you're down to booting the other healers and recruiting someone who'll do the spec swapping you don't want to and who can do so as well as you can, or finding a new guild that wants a main healer. Or deciding you can accept #1 or 2 after all.

    But option 5 IS reasonable. It's absolutely the RL's job to tell people who are DPSing and not doing it well to pick it up and it's absolutely the job of those DPS to know they're not hitting the mark and to improve. Coddling people who aren't doing as well as they could do is bad for the raid because it inevitably means that the people who do play well end up making sacrifices to cover the ones who aren't doing well.

    Now, if the reason people aren't doing well is that their class is gimped at DPS even when played well, that's different. But there are target dummies, there are class guides and there should be a willingness to help them gear up if that's the issue.

    I've been in the OP's shoes and it's frustrating to have to do something you'd rather not do because other people cannot or will not do their bit.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-15 at 11:51 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethes View Post
    Dear OP,

    As you've stated multiple times, you don't enjoy playing a DPS-spec despite the fact that this is in the best interest of your guild. This of course, is fine. Now instead of complaining about the fact that you're not willing I suggest you think towards a solution. As you've stated, the other healers can't go DPS as they're not good enough at that particular role. Meaning you will have to for the sake of the guild.

    Now a lot of people say, put your foot down and tell them you're only going to play healer. I'm not exactly aware of how serious your guild is, but I can tell you that this will most likely not have a positive result for you.
    What you and several other posters have ignored is that OP made it clear he'd only raid as heals, the RL was fine with this and others volunteered to do DPS but, because they fail at doing DPS, OP is expected to take one for the guild instead of demanding that the others improve. Guess what this does? It incentivizes the good players to find a guild where they can do the role they want to do and not be forced to do one that they do not want to do because other raiders are failing and the RL refuses to hold those people to doing what they committed to doing.
    Last edited by clevin; 2012-10-15 at 06:54 PM.

  11. #71
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Waterloo, ON
    Posts
    23,016
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    But option 5 IS reasonable. It's absolutely the RL's job to tell people who are DPSing and not doing it well to pick it up and it's absolutely the job of those DPS to know they're not hitting the mark and to improve.
    That's option 3, not 5. Players who are that subpar typically can't or won't improve to the degree that you're thinking. You'll have to recruit replacements.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    That's option 3, not 5. Players who are that subpar typically can't or won't improve to the degree that you're thinking. You'll have to recruit replacements.
    Fine, but your characterization of 5 is " Raid with your guild as Resto and have the other healers get magically better at DPS without you having to do anything to deal with the issue yourself."

    First, OP isn't the RL, so they shouldn't have to deal with the issue... that's the point of HAVING a RL (or one of the points).

    It's the RL's job to figure out why the people who agreed to DPS aren't cutting it and to talk to them about it. They're not going to magically get better, no, but they might be able to improve enough that it works. We don't know because we haven't seen logs, armory, etc. but the RL presumably has and can figure this out. For example, is the boomkin multidotting trash? Are they casting Starsurge on CD? Starfall when it's off CD (and do they know that hitting Lunar Eclipse resets that CD so they can cast it then?). Are they hitcapped? Are they DPSing in gear reforged for heals? If so, does the raid just need to run some heroics so key pieces can be dedicated to DPS? There's a lot that can be done to move someone who's new to boomkin DPS up the charts before you just kick them.

    All of this and more is what I'd explore as RL. You want to jump to the nuclear option right off - I'm saying that you don't do that unless you've explored the reasons behing the subpar performance. Then the RL just makes a call - is it better for the raid to keep OP and lose the other two? Worse?

  13. #73
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Waterloo, ON
    Posts
    23,016
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    Fine, but your characterization of 5 is " Raid with your guild as Resto and have the other healers get magically better at DPS without you having to do anything to deal with the issue yourself."

    First, OP isn't the RL, so they shouldn't have to deal with the issue... that's the point of HAVING a RL (or one of the points).

    It's the RL's job to figure out why the people who agreed to DPS aren't cutting it and to talk to them about it. They're not going to magically get better, no, but they might be able to improve enough that it works. We don't know because we haven't seen logs, armory, etc. but the RL presumably has and can figure this out. For example, is the boomkin multidotting trash? Are they casting Starsurge on CD? Starfall when it's off CD (and do they know that hitting Lunar Eclipse resets that CD so they can cast it then?). Are they hitcapped? Are they DPSing in gear reforged for heals? If so, does the raid just need to run some heroics so key pieces can be dedicated to DPS? There's a lot that can be done to move someone who's new to boomkin DPS up the charts before you just kick them.

    All of this and more is what I'd explore as RL. You want to jump to the nuclear option right off - I'm saying that you don't do that unless you've explored the reasons behing the subpar performance. Then the RL just makes a call - is it better for the raid to keep OP and lose the other two? Worse?
    I bolded the most important part.

    You've made a lot of points about how the raid leader could/should be addressing this. But the OP isn't a raid leader. So these aren't options available to them. If their raid leader will fix it, fine, but it's unlikely if the OP has been complaining and has been driven to posting on forums for support. If the raid leader WON'T fix it, we're back to "suck it up, or find a guild that wants what you want", basically.

  14. #74
    It's elementary that the OP can choose to do one of a few things - it usually is in these cases frankly. The OP can a) live with the situation, b) tell the RL "Heals or I don't raid" or c) move guilds.

    I dont disagree with the argument that the OP ultimately has a choice to make, but you're making assumptions right and left about what's been said, done etc. and I'm trying not to do that. The part you bolded is a point I made precisely because the OP shouldn't have to deal with the other DPS issues -that's the RL's issue. Either they're dealing with it or they aren't. We don't KNOW, we're just assuming.

    All I'm saying is that the OP should, IMO, talk to the RL and see if the offspec DPS is working on improving and if not, whether the RL is going to push them to. That knowledge makes the decision a lot easier. If the RL is working with the subpar DPS to improve then, in the OP's shoes, I might well say "Fine, I'll DPS for another couple of weeks since you're working with A and B to get their DPS up, but if it's not up to snuff by then, too bad. I'm going heals only at that point *as you promised me I could* and if that doesn't work for you, then we're going to have to part ways." If the RL wasn't going to push the DPS and made it clear that they weren't, I'd just find another guild.

    Finally, part of my replies are directed at the posters saying that OP should suck it up for the good of the guild. Too often the people who do learn to play their class well are asked to do whatever they can to progress the raid even though others aren't and that's almost never a good thing. Everyone should be trying to do their best (assuming the guild is at all serious about raiding) and letting some slack while others make sacrifices for the raid doesn't work out over time.
    Last edited by clevin; 2012-10-15 at 11:24 PM.

  15. #75
    Bloodsail Admiral Ethes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Tokyo, Japan (日本東京)
    Posts
    1,137
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    What you and several other posters have ignored is that OP made it clear he'd only raid as heals, the RL was fine with this and others volunteered to do DPS but, because they fail at doing DPS, OP is expected to take one for the guild instead of demanding that the others improve. Guess what this does? It incentivizes the good players to find a guild where they can do the role they want to do and not be forced to do one that they do not want to do because other raiders are failing and the RL refuses to hold those people to doing what they committed to doing.
    By far the easiest solution to this problem would be to change guilds, I agree. But that doesn't change reality. If you just complain at your RL eventually he'll not put up with it any longer. And as the OP hasn't actually changed guilds it's clearly he enjoys some part of the guild he's in and if he want it to stay that way he needs to find a solution for his problem, because from a guild point of view the problem is solved (namely, let the OP dps and they can raid!..)

  16. #76
    I'm in a similar position. Signed up for MoP as Ele when we were discussing roles months ago. Two nights into MoP raiding, I'm told our Resto Shaman can only make one night a week due to RL issues, and I'm our new 3rd healer.

    I don't mind Resto, but I'd already geared/gemmed for Ele and now I have to totally switch over. And then do the back/forth switch again. Every week.

    Thankfully, officers assured me they'll cover gem/enchant costs until I have 2 separate sets that are appropriate for Heroic content, but it still sucks.

  17. #77
    Bloodsail Admiral zenga's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    1,006
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    There's nothing wrong with specialization, but if your class can do more than one thing, you should know how to do them. The same way if you've got a Mage player, and Arcane is a terrible spec for the raid, he should be swapping to a spec that's better. This already happens. It's been happening for years. Hybrids are no different. Most guilds don't let any player, of any class, state "I only play this one spec, ever, regardless of what would be best for the raid".
    Assuming there are 4 roles in the raid: ranged dps, melee dps, tank and healer - if you are a hybrid you play another role (from ret melee to holy healer), as a pure you still play your same role. That is a substantial difference. I for one am much more comfortable swapping from SV to MM or swapping from destro to affliction on alts that I hardly play, than that I am able to swap from ele to enhance on my ele shaman that I've been playing for years. It's much safer to assume that one can play 2 specs within the same role at a high standard than 2 different roles.

    Your 'most guilds' statement is largely based on the guilds that you know, but matter of fact is that every guild I've played in or that I know, are/were fine with playing a single spec as hybrid. Even guilds that are so called hardcore. Obviously there are plenty of guilds that require you to play multiple classes/multiple specs as well. Point being is that there is no real data to make such a claim, as it's based on personal experience.

    My theory is that it's based on the player in combination with the roster. Our shadow priest is one of the highest ranking spriests in the world, patch after patch. He plays spriest since release, never played anything else, nor does he have any alts. Our boomkin is the only hybrid who can swap between feral / chicken and play at the same standard. My guild just recruited a new resto shaman as our 4th healer; something that in theory I could've played. But my mindset is totally different from a healer, it would take ages before (and if) I could reach the same standard. If our gladiator disc priest decides to play shadow on farm, he is dead weight, we might as well 9 man it. If our incredible holy paladin plays ret, he is behind on dps, even in bis gear. But our mage, hunter, warrior, rogue, lock are swapping specs around like I'm changing underwear. In my experience only a minority of the players are able to perform at the same level across multiple roles (I want to leave off tanking out tbh). but it's very well possible that those players are clustered within the top 50 guilds.

  18. #78
    Sure sucks when you do what other people tell you.

  19. #79
    There is one final solution!

    Just play pretty bad as DD. Just like the other healers.

  20. #80
    Bloodsail Admiral Ethes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Tokyo, Japan (日本東京)
    Posts
    1,137
    Quote Originally Posted by zenga View Post
    Assuming there are 4 roles in the raid: ranged dps, melee dps, tank and healer - if you are a hybrid you play another role (from ret melee to holy healer), as a pure you still play your same role. That is a substantial difference. I for one am much more comfortable swapping from SV to MM or swapping from destro to affliction on alts that I hardly play, than that I am able to swap from ele to enhance on my ele shaman that I've been playing for years. It's much safer to assume that one can play 2 specs within the same role at a high standard than 2 different roles.

    Your 'most guilds' statement is largely based on the guilds that you know, but matter of fact is that every guild I've played in or that I know, are/were fine with playing a single spec as hybrid. Even guilds that are so called hardcore. Obviously there are plenty of guilds that require you to play multiple classes/multiple specs as well. Point being is that there is no real data to make such a claim, as it's based on personal experience.

    My theory is that it's based on the player in combination with the roster. Our shadow priest is one of the highest ranking spriests in the world, patch after patch. He plays spriest since release, never played anything else, nor does he have any alts. Our boomkin is the only hybrid who can swap between feral / chicken and play at the same standard. My guild just recruited a new resto shaman as our 4th healer; something that in theory I could've played. But my mindset is totally different from a healer, it would take ages before (and if) I could reach the same standard. If our gladiator disc priest decides to play shadow on farm, he is dead weight, we might as well 9 man it. If our incredible holy paladin plays ret, he is behind on dps, even in bis gear. But our mage, hunter, warrior, rogue, lock are swapping specs around like I'm changing underwear. In my experience only a minority of the players are able to perform at the same level across multiple roles (I want to leave off tanking out tbh). but it's very well possible that those players are clustered within the top 50 guilds.
    I'm sorry, your story helps the OP how exactly? Secondly, your story only looks like show-off. Now, to reply to this. In order to play well you will need to do 2 things,
    1. Knowledge and experience of your class
    2. Knowledge of the fight you're doing and your role in that fight

    The only thing that sounds hard to obtain of these things is experience of your class as that clearly takes some time. But honestly, that all it takes. So in order to play a different role (in either the same, or a different class) the only thing you will need to do is practice and obtain knowledge about your class. You're absolutely right if you're saying that different roles require different mindsets, but that doesn't mean it's impossible (or nearly impossible). The only thing I can conclude as that these people you're talking about either didn't practice their other role enough or lack knowledge of that different role in those bossfights.

    In my personal experience I don't find it very hard to learn a new class and play that at the same level as I play my holy paladin (regardless of how good or bad I might play that character). It just requires playing that character!

    It's also common for guilds to have people swap around roles for fights that require less tanks/healers. Your guild might be different, but most semi-hardcore and hardcore guilds try to keep their roster as small as possible for better loot and raid opportunities and so they can keep the same team over and over again which is good for progression. Again, your experience might be different but that doesn't mean that Endus was wrong when he spoke about the general state of guild policy.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •