1. #1

    Windsong or Elemental Force for budget-minded (xD) rogue?

    I've googled about best enchants for rogues in MoP, but of course they suggest Dancing steel as the best option.

    Since the Dancing Steel enchant requires epic shards, iirc, i'm looking for something to ... bid the time xD

    So, which one should it be? Windsong or Elemental Force?
    I just noticed some changes or "improvements" to these two enchants on MMO-champion front page. Does that change anything now?

    I play all 3 specs for rogue (not at the same time, ofc). I guess elemental force might have a bit of an edge when i'm playing as assassin (like... 5% improvement to its damage?)

    So, which one would you choose / are you using?

  2. #2
    windsong can proc 3 times, 1 time on MH 1 time on OH and 1 on abilities. It also has huge uptime so it quite often happens that I have 2 or 3 rolling at the same time. Havent tested elemental force yet but I can't imagine it in any way being better since its likely limited to a low ppm. It wont do more than 3-4% of your total damage if even, which the extra offstats from windsong definately top.

  3. #3
    the once mainhand once offhand once abilities is not true for windsong (You're thinking landslide). with it on one weapon you can achieve all 3 procs (one for each mastery,haste, and crit). It procs on -everything- be it instant damage, DoT, magic, melee, heal.

    Elemental force is a much higher PPM than Windsong! Windsong is 2 Real PPM. Elemental Force is 10 Real PPM.
    Source: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6893549789

    I'm using windsong x2 myself, highly thinking about going to elemental force as my guild's monk, while using a 2 hander still achieves considerable uptime of all 3 procs ( http://www.wowhead.com/spell=104423 http://www.wowhead.com/spell=104510 and http://www.wowhead.com/spell=104509 ). A 4th proc simply overwrites one of the older procs, so I'm thinking about doing elemental force on my offhand. I haven't seen any statistical data on what is better. I'll be running simulations for it over the next day and a half

  4. #4
    The Patient Krugbuu's Avatar
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    I am not sure if simcraft is simming both the enchants correctly, but i ran four sims (Patchwork, 25000 iterations, 450 sec with 20% variance, all buffs and debuffs) and here were the results:

    2x WS = 64252
    2x EF= 64249
    EF/WS = 64311
    WS/EF = 64301

    Has anyone out there tried using EF/WS? I am thinking about trying it out.

  5. #5
    I'm also curious

    Edit: Testing right now as subtlety spec, unbuffed vs lvl 90 target dummy, 2 x EF
    Gonna test a few more times then enchant with windsong and compare DPS.

    After combat for about 10 minutes

    Test 1: EF/EF
    44,900 DPS
    562 melee auto attacks
    150 elemental force procs, 92% hit 8% crit, 3.8% total damage.

    Test 2: EF/EF
    43,300 DPS
    602 melee auto attacks
    138 elemental force procs, 94.9% hit 5.1% crit, 3.3% total damage.

    Test 3: EF/EF
    42,500 DPS
    925 melee auto attacks
    238 elemental force procs, 97.9% hit 2.1 % crit, 3.6% total damage.

    Test 4: (Unlucky RNG only got 2 evis crits) WS/EF
    43,500 DPS
    897 melee auto attacks
    91 elemental force procs, 91.2% hit 8.8 % crit, 1.5% total damage.


    Test 5: WS/EF
    46,000 DPS
    812 melee auto attacks
    104 elemental force procs, 92.3% hit 6.7 % crit, 1.8% total damage.
    Last edited by AnarchyEU; 2012-10-23 at 04:50 AM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugbuu View Post
    I am not sure if simcraft is simming both the enchants correctly, but i ran four sims (Patchwork, 25000 iterations, 450 sec with 20% variance, all buffs and debuffs) and here were the results:

    2x WS = 64252
    2x EF= 64249
    EF/WS = 64311
    WS/EF = 64301

    Has anyone out there tried using EF/WS? I am thinking about trying it out.
    Assuming your sims are 100% correct, I would still roll with Windsong/Windsong purely because you're not always going to be on your target. When you get a mastery or crit proc your dots will still tick when you aren't on your target while Elemental Force doesn't proc from poisons and bleeds. I do believe it procs on Venomous Wounds but...it's been a while since I last tested this. My point is, when you have to move away from your target for any reason (AKA dropping the fire debuff on Feng or resetting stacks on Elegon) Windsong is still going to give you a benefit while Elemental Force doesn't.

    And let's be honest here, take a small look at the numbers. Elemental Force/Windsong in a 450 second patchwerk fight gives you a grand total of 59 more DPS. You only have to not attack your target for a fraction for Windsong/Windsong to edge ahead.

    Same sort of situation for Combat Rogues in Dragon Soul with the haste proc trinket and Vial of Shadows. Vial of Shadows is always free damage while the haste proc can be wasted if it procs during the wrong time, a phase change, or you name it. Yes the haste trinket was simming higher, but it didn't always perform higher.

    EDIT:
    Whoops I should really answer the OP's question huh?

    I would definitely run with Windsong on both weapons. The uptimes on the buffs are really good and will always give you a big benefit. Elemental Force will diminish in value the better your gear becomes. If you are still leveling and run with greens, get Elemental Force however.

    I tried every combination besides Windsong/Elemental Force (did try it the other way around) in a raid setting and any iteration with Elemental Force was behind.
    Last edited by Bovan; 2012-10-23 at 08:46 AM.
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  7. #7
    High Overlord shalnath's Avatar
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    Bovan, Elemental Force does proc off DoTs now with the new proc model but Windsong is still better.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by shalnath View Post
    Bovan, Elemental Force does proc off DoTs now with the new proc model but Windsong is still better.
    Oh crud you might be right actually. When exactly did they change how Elemental Force and Windsong worked in terms of procs? All my testing did come from before that blue post, although I'm still standing by my point that movement and non-Patchwerk fights make Windwong edge ahead.
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  9. #9
    High Overlord shalnath's Avatar
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    It was a little over a week ago when they hotfixed it. Windsong and Elemental Force can proc off of all damage and healing.

    Here's the post on it: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6893549789

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by shalnath View Post
    It was a little over a week ago when they hotfixed it. Windsong and Elemental Force can proc off of all damage and healing.

    Here's the post on it: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6893549789
    Yea the testing I did was shortly after MoP's release. Or after Mogu'shan Vaults opened to be precise.

    When that blue post was posted I was already using Dancing Steel so I didn't think too much of it. While I can't see my older results being wrong, I'll do some testing some time tomorrow after our raid to see if I still get the same results. Problem is, I can't actually test it in our raid this time.
    Bovan.9481
    Completed legendaries: Twilight, Sunrise (Eternity), Bolt, Frostfang, The Juggernaut, Howler.
    Current projects: Incinerator, ascended medium armor.

  11. #11
    I run with the agi enchant and windsong, i find windsong usualy has one of the 3 buffs running at all times so i dont think i will lreplace it any time soon, and the agi proc seems very nice. last time i checked with dual windsong you cant have more than 3 buffs even if you get more procs, so some of your procs get eaten up by a refresh which is why i rather windsong on 1 hand, not on 2. this way when somethign does proc i runs full duration and i dont eat buffs

  12. #12
    So in conclusion .... MH / OH = Windsong/Windsong or Windsong/EF ?


  13. #13
    Keep this in mind: The elemental force proc does not cleave for blade flurry for combat specced rogues, BUT cleaving DOES benefit from the extra crit/haste/mastery uptime from running double windsong.

    I tested all 4 combinations in simulationcraft and for single target on a combat rogue, EF/WS was the lead combo by a very small margin over the other 3. The margin was maybe 1% dps across all 4. I personally run double windsong until I get dancing-steel-worthy weapons.

  14. #14
    High Overlord shalnath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riojano0 View Post
    So in conclusion .... MH / OH = Windsong/Windsong or Windsong/EF ?
    Honestly the best way to find out what's best for you is to run Simcraft with every combination. If you don't want to do that, I would stick with dual Windsong enchants until Dancing Steel (which will only get cheaper as it becomes more available).
    Last edited by shalnath; 2012-10-23 at 06:57 PM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugbuu View Post
    I am not sure if simcraft is simming both the enchants correctly, but i ran four sims (Patchwork, 25000 iterations, 450 sec with 20% variance, all buffs and debuffs) and here were the results:

    2x WS = 64252
    2x EF= 64249
    EF/WS = 64311
    WS/EF = 64301

    Has anyone out there tried using EF/WS? I am thinking about trying it out.
    Just wanted to point out that due to the way RPPM works, it is entirely irrelevant which enchant is on which weapon.
    All attacks can proc both. Simultaneously, even.

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