Subscription Vs. F2P

[moff]

Oh yeah that's cool, except for the people who paid anywhere from $60-$150 for the game...but no it's ok, people who download for free and give them a supposed "pocket change" of $15 are far more loyal than them. And the cost isn't even the point, but....

Additionally, most F2P games give you the client for free. Sure they have options that you can purchase for some perks, have expansions cost a moderate amount, but to start playing you pay nothing. This is not revolutionary. Guild Wars costs a one time fee and then you never have to pay anything again to enjoy anything they add to this game. The cash shop is not needed to fully enjoy the game and there are even ways around the main restriction (storage space)

If you were trying to make SWTOR look amazing by comparison, your comments have the opposite effect.

All I can say is already in my quoted answer.
SWTOR is not a guild wars, it will be a free download. I never said thats revolutionary, but the completely F2P games usually sell GEAR (or equivalents) to get money, while guild wars sells the game to get money.
SWTOR does neither. thats what I am talking about, swtor needs some income. if they let you download for free and add only vanity stuff in the store, they need something more, thats where these limitations come in.

if there are already f2p MMOS that sell only vanity stuff in the store, then I am mistaken.

[Kelimbror]

if there are already f2p MMOS that sell only vanity stuff in the store, then I am mistaken.

Then I'm afraid you are very mistaken. Because SWTOR is going to be selling gear on their cash shop. They have already stated this. On top of boosts and many more things.

Additionally, there are several MMOs who don't sell gear and stick to cosmetic things.

[Deleted]

Not surprised to see this thread is generating this many pages already in a short amount of time. I can see there are two camps of ppl here:
1) Those that comment/whine/criticize/review/give opinions on the restrictions on the game features.
2) And those that say suck it up/live with it/accept it, the restrictions aren't a big deal/reasonable/right, pay for play or else move on or go play other/alternative MMORPGs.

Probably someone is going to comment, wow, you figured that out? Awesome job, no shit sherlock. I can see that already coming. Anyway,

I can understand that you need to support the company by paying in order for them to able to make more content for the game and keep the game going. I can see FTP ppl buying weekly pass to unlock the restriction on the number of wzs, fps and operations if they have the desire to play them and maybe if they like the game so much they pay for a sub. Of course the prices for unlocks are still not known, but this is not what I want to talk about.

What caught my eye is the restriction on the game feature "Item Equipping". So it has been pointed out before there is this restriction of item equipping in EQ1/2 and Vanguard and you will hit a progression wall at higher levels. Let's say you are a "FTP" player and you don't care about the space missions, wzs, the restrictions on some convenient game features, but only want to do fps and ops. For access to that content you then buy weekly passes as a "FTP" player. When an item drops from the op or fp you can't wear it. So you have to buy that Item equipping game feature at the same time, buy a license from the Cartel Market. Whatever that is good or not, makes sense or no sense, I leave that out of my post. I'm positive anyone that has played/is still playing the game knows you need a certain level gear to do some fps and ops or you can't down a boss. Possible reasons not able to down a boss can be the healer can't outheal the incoming damage or the tank is too low geared, taking too much damage and dies or the dps is doing so little dps and his the enrage timer, etc. etc.

So in regards to what I typed above, am I wrong in thinking that this is "effectively" Pay to Win???? I understand that the popup doesn't say much other then you cannot equip most purple items unless a license is purchased from the Cartel Market. No further information which purple items, whatever that also includes the mods in the items. It is a bit too early to think/talk/speculate too much about it, but still. How I look it is that you need power to do the bosses, but you have to pay for that power in order to down the boss. I'm just wondering, nothing else. If I'm wrong, then I apologize for a being a noob.

Edit: I understand that if you queue up, group up with other ppl they are probably, most likely very well geared and that you can down bosses with no problems, but still.

[moff]

Then I'm afraid you are very mistaken. Because SWTOR is going to be selling gear on their cash shop. They have already stated this. On top of boosts and many more things.

Additionally, there are several MMOs who don't sell gear and stick to cosmetic things.

yeah, you know, In my first post, which you didnt read right either, I already specified "endgame gear"
, leveling gear is not that much of a deal in swtor, where the competitive part starts at level 50.believe me, I'll be the first to leave when they announce endgame gear or buffs for the cartel store.


which ones are the f2p MMOS that stick to cosmetic stuff?

[Kelimbror]

yeah, you know, In my first post, which you didnt read right either, I already specified "endgame gear"
, leveling gear is not that much of a deal in swtor, where the competitive part starts at level 50.believe me, I'll be the first to leave when they announce endgame gear or buffs for the cartel store.


which ones are the f2p MMOS that stick to cosmetic stuff?

I'm sorry, but I can only go by what I was repsonding to:

but the completely F2P games usually sell GEAR (or equivalents) to get money, while guild wars sells the game to get money.
SWTOR does neither.

Nowhere in that statement do you specify endgame gear. If I'm supposed to dig through your post history to determine that when you say gear from now on I should metally replace that to 'endgame gear', please give me a disclaimer. If that's what you meant though, fair enough. Most games don't sell gear like that either.

There are several MMOs, many of which I haven't personally played, but LotRO, GW2, LoL, and many games in that genre. But other than really that MMO/Moba scene, there are hundreds of F2P games available on steam that have cosmetic purchases available. I mean it's really astounding how many there are.

[moff]

that is again my second post, the one you already answered before, my first post is in the last page by now.

but anyway. well the statement that "most" f2p MMOS dont sell endgame gear is certainly wrong, and I am sure you know that, you have yet to name a single one that doesnt. and again, for the third time now, GW2 is not a f2p MMO like SWTOR or LOTRO, you have to buy it, thats income for the developer. most f2p MMOS get their income from selling endgame gear (or equivalents) like LOTRO, which sells permanent buffs as well as gear in their store. and if you think LOL is an even an MMO I doubt you're fit for this discussion.

you have yet to name a single f2p MMO that sells only vanity and cosmetic stuff in their store, and then we can talk about if its anywhere near the quality (and therefore financial effort) of swtor. a hint though: none of the big f2p MMOS sell only vanity stuff at the store. there is simply not enough money in it for a game of that scale.


thats why I am quite glad EA/bioware made those extreme limitations, it gives me hope there wont be any endgame gear in the cartel store anytime soon.

[Kelimbror]

but anyway. well the statement that "most" f2p MMOS dont sell endgame gear is certainly wrong, and I am sure you know that, you have yet to name a single one that doesnt. and again, for the third time now, GW2 is not a f2p MMO like SWTOR or LOTRO, you have to buy it, thats income for the developer. most f2p MMOS get their income from selling endgame gear (or equivalents) like LOTRO, which sells permanent buffs as well as gear in their store. and if you think LOL is an even an MMO I doubt you're fit for this discussion.

you have yet to name a single f2p MMO that sells only vanity and cosmetic stuff in their store, and then we can talk about if its anywhere near the quality (and therefore financial effort) of swtor. a hint though: none of the big f2p MMOS sell only vanity stuff at the store. there is simply not enough money in it for a game of that scale.


thats why I am quite glad EA/bioware made those extreme limitations, it gives me hope there wont be any endgame gear in the cartel store anytime soon.

1) You said "F2P games", not MMOs. If you want to throw out every game that uses and F2P model then you aren't really talking about the actual issue are you?

2) The gear that LotRO started selling also cannot be classified as 'end game', so wrong again.

3) SWTOR has had revenue from box sales and subscriptions that far surpasses the amount of money GW2 could have even made at this point. I'll let you in on a secret. The game is then F2P. They don't even have the ability to make money from a subscription. So therefore, looking at their cash shop model is completely relevant to the conversation.

4) I'll reiterate: If you don't want to actually talk about things, but instead want to frame SWTOR as the pinnacle of F2P...that's your perogative. Everyone will see it for what it is, biased and dismissive of anything that goes against what you say. SWTOR has the worst F2P model many people have ever seen at this point. I tried to refrain from being directly confrontational, but you are talking out of your ass. You can use google or look in the steam library at the hundreds of games that are free and don't sell anything but cosmetics and random things on their stores.

You can say whatever you want from this point on, but I won't be responding to you about this issue since you don't seem to want to actually discuss it more than you would rather bicker with half of the actual information available.

[SirRobin]

Yeah, not sure where some of that is coming from but we'll be able to see Austin's F2P in action soon enough anyway. Its a shame that so many have been laid off or "decided" to leave. But what's done is done. The best we can do at this point, besides discussing of course, is hope Matt isn't a complete muppet and pass the popcorn. I wonder if EA will even bother adding servers for the conversion?

[Deleted]

So in regards to what I typed above, am I wrong in thinking that this is "effectively" Pay to Win???? I understand that the popup doesn't say much other then you cannot equip most purple items unless a license is purchased from the Cartel Market. No further information which purple items, whatever that also includes the mods in the items. It is a bit too early to think/talk/speculate too much about it, but still. How I look it is that you need power to do the bosses, but you have to pay for that power in order to down the boss. I'm just wondering, nothing else. If I'm wrong, then I apologize for a being a noob.

No. Pay to Win is when you can buy BETTER gear in the cash shop compared to what is available ingame. If you have to pay to equip the same lvl of gear as the people with subscription that is more "pay-to-stay-..eh... competetive".

[moff]

4) I'll reiterate: If you don't want to actually talk about things, but instead want to frame SWTOR as the pinnacle of F2P...that's your perogative. Everyone will see it for what it is, biased and dismissive of anything that goes against what you say. SWTOR has the worst F2P model many people have ever seen at this point. I tried to refrain from being directly confrontational, but you are talking out of your ass. You can use google or look in the steam library at the hundreds of games that are free and don't sell anything but cosmetics and random things on their stores.

first of all I never said SWTOR is the pinnacle of f2p MMOS and I dont want it to be either, I want it to be as close to a sub based game as possible because that will ensure as best as possible that there will be only vanity stuff in the store.

second: you have yet to name a SINGLE f2p MMO that has only vanity stuff in its store. LOTR has buffs in its store that enhance your combat in the endgame as well as crat material that lets you craft endgame gear. GW2 is not f2p the way swtor will be, its costs money to buy and fure addons will cost, too.
and LOL, please, again. its great, but a minigame compared to SWTOR when it comes to its content and financial effort, you cant be seriously thinking that this is the same issue? if yes, then as I said, you are simply not fit for this discussion.

the swtor f2p model does not cost money to buy the game, it does not offer the best gear in the game to buy or other combat enhancing buffs or items. where is it supposed to get money from? ALL other MMOS either cost money to buy or offer these services, thats how they get their money.

I ask you one last time, name a SINGLE f2p MMO with only vanit stuff in its store, a single one from the hundreds at steam or wherever. and IF you find one, among these hundreds of steam games, compare it to the content and financial effort of SWTOR and you may realize what I am talking about. you dont need to answer, I know you dont want to. I am satisfied anyway.

[Edge-]

dont forget, guys, this will be a game you can download for free, it has no initial cost like guild wars and it does not offer any endgame gear in the shop (for now). these are big differences to other f2p mmos.

Actually, that's pretty similar to most F2P MMO's, let me list a few that have similarly restrictive cash shops, or cash shops that are far less restrictive, and they don't sell endgame gear (in some cases no gear at all) in the cash shops.

Vanguard
EQ1
EQ2
Champions Online
DC Universe Online
Vindictus
Aion
Lineage 2
Firefall (coming out soon)
Dungeons and Dragons Online
Star Trek Online

That's just off the top of my head, I know there are far more than that. Many of these games, if not all of them, are of similar production value to SWTOR (overall) and offer more content (seeing as they've been out for longer).

BioWare isn't doing US a favor by making the game freemium, they're doing it because it's a more profitable business model given their current level of success. They have to compete with other freemium/F2P games that offer similar levels of quality, equal or more content, and equal or less restrictive gameplay. They won't be the same, but acting as if we should be "grateful" for this transition is pure foolishness. We have every right to compare what they are offering for free to what other titles offer players for free, especially seeing as they will now be running the same business model.

[RoninaThorstone]

Actually, that's pretty similar to most F2P MMO's, let me list a few that have similarly restrictive cash shops, or cash shops that are far less restrictive, and they don't sell endgame gear (in some cases no gear at all) in the cash shops.
They have to compete with other freemium/F2P games that offer similar levels of quality, equal or more content, and equal or less restrictive gameplay.

This.

You guys think we are complaining about the cost.

You are wrong.

We are complaining about the way it is structured because it could be better.
And by better I don't mean for me. I mean for the health of the game.

[WarpedAcorn]

This.

You guys think we are complaining about the cost.

You are wrong.

We are complaining about the way it is structured because it could be better.
And by better I don't mean for me. I mean for the health of the game.

I agree with the above. I don't think anyone in this thread has been discussing that this a cost issue. We are complaining about a set up that will screw the F2P player over and not contribute to making SWTOR a better game.

That's kinda what everyone in this thread wants...a better game than SWTOR currently is. We want them to change their trajectory because right now they seem to keep course-correcting into meteor fields.

[moff]

Vanguard
EQ1
EQ2
Champions Online
DC Universe Online
Vindictus
Aion
Lineage 2
Firefall (coming out soon)
Dungeons and Dragons Online
Star Trek Online

yeah, well. first of all, honestly do not know all these games, but I know for sure that star trek online allows you to buy the best ships in the game (AFAIK are they even a bit better than the ones you have to actually play for) others like vindictus can in no way be described as an MMO with "similiar production value to SWTOR", no offense, nothing against vindictus, but its a simple matter of content. everquets is possibly even the worst implementation of freemium after swtor, extreme limits to comfort, only rank 1 spells and you still have to pay for expansions, and you can buy potions and other non vanity stuff from the store, nope, sorry. lineage2 and aion btw have also a store with lots of items that can arguably be seen as pay to win. dc universe online subscription gives you free access to endgame loot boxes.

these games are f2p and some are arguably more and some are less pay 2 win.
but its just not what I expect when I ask for f2p MMOS with *only* vanity and cosmetic items in the shops, sorry

[anyaka21]

Honestly, I understand both sides of the coin here, but the main issue is the cost structure.

What is it going to cost to be able to equip epics?
What is it going to cost weekly to run ops, etc...?
What is it going to cost to extend crew skills?

Everything in the game will be predicated on the cost to do these things. If the cost is reasonable and makes sense, then SWTOR could and should thrive, but make the cost restrictive to the average person and a hindrance to gameplay, then most people will probably play through level 18ish and get through Coruscant and leave.

Personally, for me, I just started playing, my highest level is 18, I'll probably keep my subscription active for a few month since I only paid $10 for the game. If I like it, if the endgame is actually decent, then I'll stick around. But truly, if the game ends up only as the story arc for the characters, then I'll leave.

[noxnoctum]

No. Pay to Win is when you can buy BETTER gear in the cash shop compared to what is available ingame. If you have to pay to equip the same lvl of gear as the people with subscription that is more "pay-to-stay-..eh... competetive".

About this better gear is it necessary for the storyline up to 50? Or is just PvP stuff?

[Kelimbror]

About this better gear is it necessary for the storyline up to 50? Or is just PvP stuff?

Neither. It's just a coin sink for lazy people. I'm sure they might put some better looking moddable armor up for higher levels as well. Don't have specific details at the moment, but it's definitely not needed to level or PvP. Unless somehow it has better stats than what you can buy with the planet comms.

[Frostea23]

I agree with the above. I don't think anyone in this thread has been discussing that this a cost issue. We are complaining about a set up that will screw the F2P player over and not contribute to making SWTOR a better game.

That's kinda what everyone in this thread wants...a better game than SWTOR currently is. We want them to change their trajectory because right now they seem to keep course-correcting into meteor fields.

I agree with this as well. Our concern is about how with this system is going forward: EA is alienating more than encouraging players to return. With many other viable MMO's on the market, people will rather play a competitor than be stuck with a micro-transaction system that cripples the player rather than providing incentives.

This old escapist video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWMBeLrZoyw sums up how I feel micro-transactions should be done, and a lot of it makes common sense; however, EA seems to want to make the quickest buck rather than looking at long-term franchise success.

The biggest rules from the video they break are:

• Pay for power. You have to "purchase a license" to equip purple items. Big No-No.
• Curtaining off F2P players from P2P players from content. In the case of SWTOR: Ops, War-zones, Dungeons.
• Removing F2P players from General Chat ["NOTE: Characters must be at least Level six (6) to unlock access to their ship’s Cargo Hold, full General Chat, and Secure Trading." -Source].

The video explains in detail why it is so important to NOT do these three items.

[RoninaThorstone]

The video explains in detail why it is so important to NOT do these three items.

I don't know how industry veterans can make such simple mistakes.

[Deleted]

The biggest rules from the video they break are:

• Pay for power. You have to "purchase a license" to equip purple items. Big No-No.
• Curtaining off F2P players from P2P players from content. In the case of SWTOR: Ops, War-zones, Dungeons.
• Removing F2P players from General Chat ["NOTE: Characters must be at least Level six (6) to unlock access to their ship’s Cargo Hold, full General Chat, and Secure Trading." -Source].

The video explains in detail why it is so important to NOT do these three items.

I think you may have mistaken number 1. Pay for Power means pay to win. At least from the video you linked. That video defines it as 'selling the players items that alter the balance of gameplay'...Pay to Win. TOR's license to equip purples is nothing of the sort. The F2P player still has to earn the purples. They just need a permit to wear it. The 'Pay to Win' horror that everyone dislikes is something else entirely.

P.S. A nice definition of Pay to Win: Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.