1. #1

    Haste values after hitting plateaus...

    So i like to think im a pretty competant mage, not top 100 or anthing like that, but i take my gearing seriously and raid with passion.

    So i have recently started using simcraft along with tools like mr robot to organise my reforging to get the most out of each stat point. my question is what should i be putting in as the haste stat weight AFTER cap (cap being the haste plateaus that give me extra glyphed combustion tick).

    These are my current weights from simcraft
    Int: 4.26
    Sp: 3.29
    Hit: 3.02
    Crit: 2.25
    Haste: 2.19
    Mastery: 1.49

    I am a goblin so the first 'cap' i am aiming for is 2606 rating which i have no problem hitting (ilvl 487.. you can find my armory on the EU site, Dizino of Stormrage). In the past i have always just assumed that once i hit the cap i wanted, i just set the weight as the lowest and go for other stats until i felt i was able to hit the next break point. Im not overly mathy and have played since vanilla more by the feel of it and often got good results from that but now i want to know.

  2. #2
    High Overlord Abraxis's Avatar
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    I am Goblin too.

    @3002 we have an extratick while BL/TW/Hero.

    For me, everytime i sim my mage ist says Haste=Crit, sometimes with crit minimal ahead.

    So as a rule of thumb for me i get hitcapped, go for 3002 haste, maximize crit, after that i still do haste >> mastery

  3. #3
    ok cool, that makes sence... as i use Mr Robot to determin my reforging what would the %age be for 3002 haste? Also as i use Windsong atm on my weapon (only just got lfr torch, wont use jade until 5.1 and/or i get a normal/heroic level raid weapon.. whichever comes first) Windsong will obviously effect my weights, esp with Robot and reforging as i assume it normalises the procs or something like that

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-15 at 01:42 PM ----------

    actually, i dont know how easy i can hit that 3002 haste, it seems when i play around with different 'caps' i seem to loose out on hit. anything above 3000 haste and i cant get hit about 4899. maybe its just me putting in the wrong sort of numbers tho.

  4. #4
    And if you use Living Bomb, its possible there is no haste caps at all. Because getting enough haste for extra combustion tick causes dps loss on LB damage.

  5. #5
    High Overlord Abraxis's Avatar
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    I think its 7%

    Don't forget:

    Just do this, if u dont lose crit or fall too much under hitcap. (14,80% is still ok).

    An Oportuninty could be for red socket: Expertise/Crit gems, blue socket: expertise/hit, green: crit/hit
    Play around with expertise or haste on hands (enchant)

    And on mastery/hit items u can reforge mastery to expertise.

    Didn't check ur char, that was just general.
    Last edited by Abraxis; 2012-11-15 at 01:52 PM.

  6. #6
    yea the above i know. 14.80% i dont mind.. it was lower than that... In actual fact i had entered some of my weights in wrong.. so everything i had been doing was taking crit at 3.25 instead of 2.25.. doh, silly fingers! anyways.. sorted that.. without placing a cap on haste i get 3331 haste. I think ive got something i like the look of, in any case, i dont think i can get my crit higher which is the biggest goal.

    The main aim of this post was to find if i need to reduce the weight of haste once i have enough for the extra ticks i want.. it seems that i dont need to and haste is still favored over mastery as long as you cant get more crit out of either stat... correct?

  7. #7
    High Overlord Abraxis's Avatar
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    Correct.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Damurd View Post
    The main aim of this post was to find if i need to reduce the weight of haste once i have enough for the extra ticks i want.. it seems that i dont need to and haste is still favored over mastery as long as you cant get more crit out of either stat... correct?
    Yeah, that is correct (for now) that may change as your gear changes as stat weights change with each piece of new gear.

  9. #9
    cool, Thanks muchly. will see how that all works out.

    Yes, i check new weights after each raid in which i recieve new items, it doesnt take long, and now im not worrying about haste after caps.. it should be that little bit easier

  10. #10
    Does this actually mean I should not reforge something into haste what could be reforged to crit? Or would you definitely go for the cap? I'm currently at 2453 haste. Going for 7% would actually mean that I loose about 600 crit rating. Viable or not?

  11. #11
    High Overlord Abraxis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reflection View Post
    Does this actually mean I should not reforge something into haste what could be reforged to crit? Or would you definitely go for the cap? I'm currently at 2453 haste. Going for 7% would actually mean that I loose about 600 crit rating. Viable or not?
    If you're Goblin u could aim for 2606 that wouldn't be that bad. But as Non Goblin it would be 3056 iirc what whould be a great loss of crit for u. I didn't look up your char but maybe u can gain more crit and haste by regemming/reforging?

  12. #12
    Currently I use reforgelite to reforge. Stat weightings are like (hit cap/180 crit/160 haste/140 mastery - I think that's just how numbers are relevant to each other). I know that's not ideal, but it did it's job so far. The tool reforges to nearly exact 15% hit - great. I could of course go to 3056 haste with just regemming and reforging, but I would of course loose crit (any stat has to disappear when reforging into crit ).

    You can see my char here: http://eu.battle.net/wow/de/characte...%A1rlon/simple

  13. #13
    High Overlord Abraxis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reflection View Post
    Currently I use reforgelite to reforge. Stat weightings are like (hit cap/180 crit/160 haste/140 mastery - I think that's just how numbers are relevant to each other). I know that's not ideal, but it did it's job so far. The tool reforges to nearly exact 15% hit - great. I could of course go to 3056 haste with just regemming and reforging, but I would of course loose crit (any stat has to disappear when reforging into crit ).

    You can see my char here: http://eu.battle.net/wow/de/characte...%A1rlon/simple

    So as u're @7,9k crit, personally i would go for the 3056 haste. U'll have still a good crit value and my subjective feeling is, that its more "liquid" (doesn't no the english term but i mean that it feels better with shorter GCDs and casttime). From DPS side i think it wouldn't make a huge difference but its worth to test it.

  14. #14
    I will give it a shot Thanks! Got a small equip upgrade yesterday bringing me over 30% crit. I think that's to spend 600 crit into something else Just have to reconfigure my reforging tool

  15. #15
    Stood in the Fire
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    Good question.
    Last night I run some sims with 25k iterations and surprisingly haste was already a little bit better than crit rating. I think it was like Haste 0.65 and Crit 0.64 although I'm hitting the 3056 cap. Maybe it's the 2pc bonus but this should also increase crit rating, I guess. Or was it aiming to the next combustion haste cap (i did not use the glyph this time).

    EDIT: Now with Combustion Glyph: Crit 0.59, Haste 0.55

    PS: Updated the HaCa links in signature below - also for shadows and warlocks (affliction dots).
    Last edited by Smaikiii; 2012-11-17 at 11:44 AM.
    Fire Mage 14/14 10H+25H <Integrity> @ EU-Eredar

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Smaikiii View Post
    Good question.
    Last night I run some sims with 25k iterations and surprisingly haste was already a little bit better than crit rating. I think it was like Haste 0.65 and Crit 0.64 although I'm hitting the 3056 cap. Maybe it's the 2pc bonus but this should also increase crit rating, I guess. Or was it aiming to the next combustion haste cap (i did not use the glyph this time).

    EDIT: Now with Combustion Glyph: Crit 0.59, Haste 0.55

    PS: Updated the HaCa links in signature below - also for shadows and warlocks (affliction dots).
    Gotta remember simcraft scale values can be more or less wrong because of the way it calculates them. Peoples should always check those values by simming with new reforges to see if scale values were really right. Or use simcraft option to do reforge plots. Also there seems to be multiple open known issues with simcraft mage model so would not trust it to be accurate enough to tell which of these extremely close stats (haste/crit) is better.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by sahtila View Post
    Gotta remember simcraft scale values can be more or less wrong because of the way it calculates them. Peoples should always check those values by simming with new reforges to see if scale values were really right. Or use simcraft option to do reforge plots. Also there seems to be multiple open known issues with simcraft mage model so would not trust it to be accurate enough to tell which of these extremely close stats (haste/crit) is better.

    Correct.

    Looking at Raw Stat weights just doesn't tell you anything about the viability of haste plateaus. Does that weight represent the slope of the curve at that exact gearing point? Does it reflect the over-all 'rise-over-run of two arbitrary points on the graph? Does it represent some other form of statistical analysis.

    The fact is, you don't know and there are flaws with using any of those to base your decision on. So don't.

    Basicly, you want to test the highest level of crit you can possibly get, reforging everything possible into it, the haste plateaus be damned.
    Then you want to test the highest possible level of haste you can get, reforging everything possible, haste plateaus be damned. Make note of the projected DPS of both--IGNORE STAT WEIGHTS. They're not the data you need here.

    Then, test every haste plateau between the top and the bottom.

    That will give you the best picture of what you should do regarding the haste plateaus, and may even show that 'crit and haste are close' might not actually be true at all.

  18. #18
    Stood in the Fire
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    Thanks for your feedback and I totally agree with you.
    Here just another question. Did you notice that simming without glyph of combustion always result in more DPS with simcrafT? It's almost 4k although the sims used 5x CB with glyph (5359 DPS) and only 9x CB w/o glyph (with 8851 DPS)

    And the hit/crit value of glyphed CB is also doubled, dunno



    Fire Mage 14/14 10H+25H <Integrity> @ EU-Eredar

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Smaikiii View Post
    Thanks for your feedback and I totally agree with you.
    Here just another question. Did you notice that simming without glyph of combustion always result in more DPS with simcrafT? It's almost 4k although the sims used 5x CB with glyph (5359 DPS) and only 9x CB w/o glyph (with 8851 DPS)

    And the hit/crit value of glyphed CB is also doubled, dunno



    Prolly one of those known bugs, Glyphed Combustion was bugged in simcraft. Bug seem to be just fixed but guess its not yet fixed in simcraft public release version:
    http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...1&q=combustion

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