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  1. #41
    The president is simply a symptom of the people, therefore blame the people!
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    My God, what a horrible creation. People seeing what they want? Thank God they tried to shy away from that. I know it pisses me off when I'm in an heroic raid, yet in the back of my head all I can think is 'some casual player is playing a heroic dungeon and not wiping.' -Vodkarn

  2. #42
    The Insane Rukentuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oblivionx View Post
    It only does if referring to the president as the coach is a mischaracterization.
    Congrats, you even stated the correct answer and failed to understand it.

    The position of President isn't a valid comparison to a coach in any sport.
    Last edited by Rukentuts; 2012-10-17 at 07:13 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    Congrats, you even stated the correct answer and failed to understand it. The position of President isn't a valid comparison to a coach in any sport.

    Example: A coach doesn't need approval of players to call plays.
    I am pretty sure he is simply suggesting that often people point the leaders rather than looking at the whole story when things don't end well.

  4. #44
    Elemental Lord Tastyfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oblivionx View Post
    Actually it is that simple..
    What? Badgering everyone in every thread about American Politics and taking EVERY Thread about anything American and turning it into a paranoid, factless bashing of the current administration?
    Yea, I guess it is that simple.
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  5. #45
    Warchief Waaldo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oblivionx View Post
    No other politician has ever gotten away with running a re-election blaming his predecessor for everything bad like this one.
    That's because no other politicians have run after George W. Bush.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torethyr
    I thought doing the toothpaste-tube-squeeze and vigorous shake was the "traditional" way.

  6. #46
    I honestly don't know how much of the blame is on the president. Like I live in Oregon which for whatever reason has a higher unemployment rate than the national average.

  7. #47
    Immortal apepi's Avatar
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    Yes and no. People should be responsible for their actions but the president does have some responsibility himself. Though, I think the congress has the most responsibility here, they pass the bills to try to keep our country running. But what are they doing?

    We have passed less bills for the longest time...
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

  8. #48
    Elemental Lord Snowraven's Avatar
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    You talking in general or US only?

    If you're talking US only, I have no clue.

    If you're talking in general, you blame both. On one hand, people were elected leaders because the general population thought they could do something, and they showed before some skill in something. Unfortunately, today that skill is generally shown in fooling people. So, the leadership of a country was tasked to do good for the country.
    If they failed, they failed their jobs. It's like I'm a boss and I elect someone to bring me my mail everyday since I can't, and he does not. Same principle, since, in the end, the people are the rulers.

    On the other hand, it is also the fault of the people in general. Why? Because they elected idiots to be their leader. Many times they didn't bother to even try research who the people participating in elections were and voted based on seeing them say something nice on tv or because their friends/family told them they're the best leaders possible. And unfortunately, a major percent in most countries doesn't care who rules them so they vote by ear, which is horrible! So, from this point of view, the population is also to blame.

    From the point you brought, the morgages or something though, the population is not to blame, but the banks. Why? Well think about the saying "Stupid is not the one who asks, but the one who gives". Some people asked for money from banks and banks gave said money to them knowing there's a huge chance said loans would not get payed back. This was due to economic growth we had before the crysis, the banks presumed it will continue and people will have the money to give back, with a bonus even. They didn't think of safety for their bussiness, only of the money. And this is why here the banks are to blame mostly. However, by bailing them out, the leadership of most countries (excluding Iceland, which said "FU banks" and let them fall and now has a stable growing economy) showed the major investers of said bussinesses that no matter how bad they are, if they create enough jobs the state will bail them and as such they can suck as much money from the state as they can. Look at Greece, this is what happened, they sucked so much money the state almost fell, and now they're sucking money from the EU! And here, from this principle, the leadership of a country is to blame.

    So, bottom line, both the leadership of a country and the people are to blame, though for different things.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Arnorei View Post
    You talking in general or US only?

    If you're talking US only, I have no clue.

    If you're talking in general, you blame both. On one hand, people were elected leaders because the general population thought they could do something, and they showed before some skill in something. Unfortunately, today that skill is generally shown in fooling people. So, the leadership of a country was tasked to do good for the country.
    If they failed, they failed their jobs. It's like I'm a boss and I elect someone to bring me my mail everyday since I can't, and he does not. Same principle, since, in the end, the people are the rulers.

    On the other hand, it is also the fault of the people in general. Why? Because they elected idiots to be their leader. Many times they didn't bother to even try research who the people participating in elections were and voted based on seeing them say something nice on tv or because their friends/family told them they're the best leaders possible. And unfortunately, a major percent in most countries doesn't care who rules them so they vote by ear, which is horrible! So, from this point of view, the population is also to blame.

    From the point you brought, the morgages or something though, the population is not to blame, but the banks. Why? Well think about the saying "Stupid is not the one who asks, but the one who gives". Some people asked for money from banks and banks gave said money to them knowing there's a huge chance said loans would not get payed back. This was due to economic growth we had before the crysis, the banks presumed it will continue and people will have the money to give back, with a bonus even. They didn't think of safety for their bussiness, only of the money. And this is why here the banks are to blame mostly. However, by bailing them out, the leadership of most countries (excluding Iceland, which said "FU banks" and let them fall and now has a stable growing economy) showed the major investers of said bussinesses that no matter how bad they are, if they create enough jobs the state will bail them and as such they can suck as much money from the state as they can. Look at Greece, this is what happened, they sucked so much money the state almost fell, and now they're sucking money from the EU! And here, from this principle, the leadership of a country is to blame.

    So, bottom line, both the leadership of a country and the people are to blame, though for different things.
    True, but however politicians often say they will do one thing, then as soon as they get elected, BOOM they start catering to the special interest groups rather than to the interest of the population. We've seen this often in American politics.
    I think both are to blame, the people and the gov. if we voted for someone who has a relatively clean record, than once they got into office they become corrupt, than that elected member is at fault. However, if people keep re-electing the same crooks over and over again, its the peoples fault mainly.

  10. #50
    I think a lot of people are also associating "Government budget" to = "General Happiness and well being of Citizenry". I don't think this is truly the case. Here I think are some key factors that really affect everyone's budget based by year.

    Best years of recent history: 1986 - 2004





    http://www.thepeoplehistory.com/70ye...icechange.html
    Average Wages
    1930 $1,970.00 , 1940 $1,725.00, 1950 $3,210.00 , 1960 $5,315.00 ,
    1970 $9,400.00 , 1980 $19,500.00 , 1990 $28,960.00 , 2008 $40,523 ,
    Average Cost of New Car Cars
    1930 $600.00 , 1940 $850.00, 1950 $1,510.00 , 1960 $2,600.00 ,
    1970 $3,450.00 , 1980 $7,200.00 , 1990 $16,950.00 , 2008 $27,958 ,
    Average Cost Loaf of Bread Food
    1930 9 cents , 1940 10 cents , 1950 12 cents , 1960 22 cents ,
    1970 25 cents , 1980 50 cents , 1990 70 cents , 2008 $2.79
    Average Cost 1lb Hamburger Meat
    1930 12 cents , 1940 20 cents , 1950 30 cents , 1960 45 cents ,
    1970 70 cents , 1980 99 cents , 1990 89 cents , 2009 $3.99



    And of course the actual debt of the nation in currency and GDP.


    additional chart for national debt going to 2012
    Last edited by GreatSageCorban; 2012-10-17 at 08:28 PM.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by oblivionx View Post
    Actually it is that simple.

    Coach wants a new contract and has a dismal record. Coach doesn't get contract.
    Coach wants a new contract because previous coach bankrupted the team, fired all the decent players and staffed the board with his cronies who made it a point of honor to do everything possible to ensure he failed.

    Should the owner keep him because he still managed to stabilise the situation and get things turned around despite all this or fire him because he didn't undo decades worth of harm overnight?

    Leaving aside the analogy - Obama has had a pretty decent term given what Bush lumbered him with. The problem is that he could have...indeed should have ...done better. However, a Republican in office probably wouldn't have done much better or worse. And the question for the voters now is simple - will Romney do a better job with trickle down economics than Obama can do with "middle income out"?

    Unfortunately, I don't think tax cuts will work. They didn't under Bush. Indeed, seeing those same tax cuts used to ship jobs overseas or as an excuse to hold wages down in the US didn't help. Romney has given away nothing to suggest that same plan will work now. "It isn't working for Europe but maybe it'll work for America" doesn't fill me with confidence in his economic plan. The focus on debt is good but strikes me as better placed for when the economy would healthier as opposed to a time when revenues are falling and costs rising - both thanks to the Republican policies pursued by Bush. Of course, then ther'ed be less pressure for reform and it'll time for the pork barrel.

    But Obama isn't no saint either. He's made mistakes. Just different ones from what the Republicans would have made. Right now, however, its a case of who will do least harm. Neither is likely to be good president.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2012-10-17 at 08:24 PM.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Seirith View Post
    I watched part of the debate yesterday and wondered to myself, why do people blame the president for everything that goes bad instead of seeing that many of our issues are caused by the people? It seems to me like there is no personal responsibility anymore.

    For example, the mortgage crisis. People blame the president and/or the banks. Shouldn't we however, blame the people that did not realize they could not afford the $500,000 mortgage? Yes, some people have lost jobs and their income but MANY people think they need 5,000sq ft and bought a house they cannot afford.

    Then we have social welfare programs, where someone with 5 kids with 5 different mothers or fathers can go and get food stamps/rent paid/tuition/free health insurance etc...and keep having more kids. Again, where is the personal responsibility to not have children you cannot afford?
    I want to specifically address the issue of mortgage.
    There are two parties at fault:
    1 - the home owner, should have known they can't afford mortgage, and so I'm fine with foreclosing on them.
    2 - the bank should not have loaned money to person they knew can't afford mortgage, so I'm fine with bank going out of business.

    What I'm not fine with, is saving #2, and F*ing in the a$$ #1.
    In fact, I think #1 should have been bailed, which in turn would have bailed some of #2's.

    I have no problem with double standard, but I do have problem with bailing out failed businesses. I'd rather bail out only people.

  13. #53
    Titan Didactic's Avatar
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    Blame Congress. Constitutionally the President has relatively little power; and because Congress are representative of the people, the ultimate fault lies with apathetic voters.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  14. #54
    Warchief Letmesleep's Avatar
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    It's not either/or, it's both. Some problems are caused by people, some are caused by policies or lack of them.
    Last edited by Letmesleep; 2012-10-17 at 11:03 PM.

  15. #55
    The Lightbringer Mandible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oblivionx View Post
    No other politician has ever gotten away with running a re-election blaming his predecessor for everything bad like this one.
    Not a whole lot of other presidents had to take over the situation that Bush left behind, so in most of the cases its fully valid to blame him.

    In regards to topic you need to look at the big picture and see whats put on the table and who supports it or just goes against it nomatter what.
    "Only Jack can zip up."
    The word you want to use is "have" not "of".
    You may have alot of stuff in your country, but we got Lolland.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Seirith View Post
    I watched part of the debate yesterday and wondered to myself, why do people blame the president for everything that goes bad instead of seeing that many of our issues are caused by the people? It seems to me like there is no personal responsibility anymore.

    For example, the mortgage crisis. People blame the president and/or the banks. Shouldn't we however, blame the people that did not realize they could not afford the $500,000 mortgage? Yes, some people have lost jobs and their income but MANY people think they need 5,000sq ft and bought a house they cannot afford.

    Then we have social welfare programs, where someone with 5 kids with 5 different mothers or fathers can go and get food stamps/rent paid/tuition/free health insurance etc...and keep having more kids. Again, where is the personal responsibility to not have children you cannot afford?
    1. People need to learn the president has no power really. hell he can't even start a war unless we are attacked first.
    2. Anything the president wants to pass or happen has to be passed by congress and cause of this if congress dose not like him nothing will happen. *just look at what happen with bush they loved him and he put us in 2 wars and a huge det compared to the health bill Obama wanted to pass but congress tore it down and its nothing like it original was going to be.
    3.The president can not fix everything over night hell it even may take longer then both terms they can serve.
    4.Someone will always blame someone but if you look at facts and not blind hate you will see who/what is at fault for a lot of the problems.

    Thats just my 2 cents and my Opinion..

    also to the OP: your Quote "Then we have social welfare programs, where someone with 5 kids with 5 different mothers or fathers can go and get food stamps/rent paid/tuition/free health insurance etc...and keep having more kids. Again, where is the personal responsibility to not have children you cannot afford?"

    is just wrong just cause you hear it on tv or a friends house or w/e dose not make getting those things as easy as you say they are cause there not.

    you can't just clap your hands and get food stamps/rent paid/tuition ect...like that
    Last edited by Jtbrig7390; 2012-10-17 at 11:06 PM.
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  17. #57
    Titan Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Letmesleep View Post
    It's not either/or. It's both. Some problems are caused by people, some are caused by policies or lack of them.
    Since this is a democratic republic, the people are always ultimately at fault if the person is not booted in the next electoral cycle.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  18. #58
    Warchief Letmesleep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Since this is a democratic republic, the people are always ultimately at fault if the person is not booted in the next electoral cycle.
    That's true, but that's also assuming you can tell the future and know exactly what any politician is really going to do or not do. Once they are in, they're in and you have to wait it out till you can get rid of them.

  19. #59
    Titan Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Letmesleep View Post
    That's true, but that's also assuming you can tell the future and know exactly what any politician is really going to do or not do. Once they are in, they're in.
    They are in for six years at the most (Senators) before the next election. The Founders designed the system so as to keep all elected officials under the hammer (save Senators, but that's a different story), and the failure of the system is due to the voters either not voting, not paying enough attention to their representatives' actions, or not caring for whom they vote.

    That is not to say there aren't systemic problems, but again these could be solved if representatives willing to change the system were elected.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  20. #60
    Warchief Letmesleep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    They are in for six years at the most (Senators) before the next election. The Founders designed the system so as to keep all elected officials under the hammer (save Senators, but that's a different story), and the failure of the system is due to the voters either not voting, not paying enough attention to their representatives' actions, or not caring for whom they vote.

    That is not to say there aren't systemic problems, but again these could be solved if representatives willing to change the system were elected.
    I'm not in disagreement, but nor do I think you can just ignore the fact that 6 years is a long time and a lot of damage can be done in that amount of time. All I'm saying is it's not really a simple issue. Even voting someone in doesn't mean they'll actually do anything. You can vote useless people in multiple times in a row that ran on fantastic platforms.

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