Fire Mage Guide

[Rickdiculous]

It makes me wonder that instead of aiming for the 4pc, just aim for the 2pc and go with the high crit pieces in those slots, since crit gives us so much.

[mrgreenthump]

Well ye I think I'll pass(got 2 set) till others got at least 2 set in our raid group..

[Windry]

@stX3 - OK, I've done some testing on it, and I'm convinced of that method. I will update my guide tomorrow (have stuff to do before raid tonight). Thanks Elpadrino for pointed it out.

@Elpadrino, btw... did you ever get around to testing whether or not 3039 was the actual haste breakpoint?

[Deleted]

I notice a lot of mages in top guilds are using Jade Serpent. What's the reason for this? I thought windsong was supposedly top dog for fire.

[elpadrino293]

@Elpadrino, btw... did you ever get around to testing whether or not 3039 was the actual haste breakpoint?

unfortunately not... the wife had plans for me the other night when i had planned to do it. soon though, raiding atm.

---------- Post added 2012-11-08 at 11:33 PM ----------

I notice a lot of mages in top guilds are using Jade Serpent. What's the reason for this? I thought windsong was supposedly top dog for fire.

perhaps they play more than one spec. i have no math to support it, but personally i just don't care for windsong as fire. i couldn't care less about the mastery. i'm at my desired haste plateau, so i don't really care for a haste gain for the sole purpose of a slightly faster cast time. i wouldn't take 1500 crit over 1650 int any day of the week, and when a spell doesn't crit then that 1500 crit rating isn't helping.

i like the 12k-13k+ int when all my procs line up (tailor, engineer, LotC, DMC:RoY, and jade spirit. add a potion, a lust, and my troll racial in there as well for even more fun), and even more so when alter time extends them all. all of those int procs have relatively short ICDs, and it's common to have more than one up at a time, similar the benefit of an int potion for about half the duration.

[Shangalar]

Just a tip:

Don't suddenly switch to Fire and then proceed to raid lead as usual. It was fine when I remembered to concentrate, but after a while I focused so much on raid leading that on a boss pull I applied the bomb and then pressed Combustion. Because when I play Arcane my Blast is on that button. And I've been Fire for a full two hours before that.

[Deleted]

Just a tip:

Don't suddenly switch to Fire and then proceed to raid lead as usual. It was fine when I remembered to concentrate, but after a while I focused so much on raid leading that on a boss pull I applied the bomb and then pressed Combustion. Because when I play Arcane my Blast is on that button. And I've been Fire for a full two hours before that.

when swapping specs have major cd's on same hotkey, Ie Arcane power, combust, icy viens on same hotkey in the different specs, Maybe put IB in the arcane blast hotkey, and in frost icelance. At least that is what i try to do, matching "similar" spells with hotkeys.
but ye know the feeling, i have bombs on s-2 and pyro on 2. ive mistakenly done Bomb instead of hardcast pre pull pyro ><

[Deleted]

Windsong > Jade Spirit, is only true if windsong uptime is greater than 50%, which is not true in all fights. Though if you compare the cost of the two....

Also Jade Spirit doesnt let itself value as easy as flat averaged Intellect boost, The bigger hits of all your spells make bigger igites thus bigger combustion.
Same reason you cannot compare the RoP to Invocation on a 1:1 basis, simply because of the added damage going into the biggest damaging spell in the game, combustion.
Dont forget the Pyro and MB dots are also still rolling @ 125% even while evocating.
For that reason I find the assumption of the guide of RoP > Invo to be flawed, this is not even to mention the procs.

I find the guide flawed/incomplete in "YOU DPS THE FULL 40 seconds. YOU LET THE BUFF FALL OFF. THEN YOU EVOCATE. "
If 4 seconds before I need to evocate my Lightweave or Relic/ Jade Spirit / other trinkets come of ICD, I start to evocate before it does so to ensure it doesnt proc just 1 second before my precious intellect proc is wasted on downtime of either the Energy buff or Evocating...

FInaly the 25 second thing I believe is over stated as well, because of the rolling MB and Pyro and to a lesser degree the Ignite itself...
On an average fight both the pyro Dot and LB are only 8-9% of my damage done, but still it counts still 15+% of my damage is going on even if I am evocating.
I dont even want to mention landing a Combustion just before evocating.

Same offcourse is true in reverse though to a much lesser degree because the "loss" of time is so much less. To say/assume evocating means your not doing any dps, is simply to much of a simplyfication, saying perhaps 15% or assume either dot to drop and say 10% I can live with that.... 0? Nah...

About the HS+HU, FB > !Pyro cast, I did mention that already back on page 7 of this thread....
Though I am unsure if you should fish for HU proc for the (near) full duration of the HS proc or if you should simply wait only for the IB cd.

The thinking here being that a chance to promote HU to HS is still only a chance (FB+!PB) which is offcourse great to have while IB is on CD.
On the other hand when IB is off CD, you can guarantee HU to HS promotion by using IB. If the chance fails then you just wasted a HU with IB off cd.
Comparing the GCD damage of IB to FB cast, 28k for IB for 1.3 second GCD or average 48k Fireball at ~2 second cast time
or roughly 21.5k dps vs 24k dps to guarantee a average 75k !Pyroblast vs a chance at said !Pyroblast
And I thing the HS+HU combo works out better if ....
FB>!PB>FB>!PB, rather than FB>!PB>!PB simply because you have to wait nearly the full GCD to see if you did or didnt proc the HS, instead you fill it with a FB or run the risk of a hardcasted Pyroblast. Or should we always fish for a HU before using HS or untill 2 seconds before the HS drops?

On the other hand we have the risk of FB>!PB on a HS only that the FB will crit and the !PB will cancel your HU proc from the FB... QQ

[Deleted]

About the HS+HU, FB > !Pyro cast, I did mention that already back on page 7 of this thread....
Though I am unsure if you should fish for HU proc for the (near) full duration of the HS proc or if you should simply wait only for the IB cd.

The thinking here being that a chance to promote HU to HS is still only a chance (FB+!PB) which is offcourse great to have while IB is on CD.
On the other hand when IB is off CD, you can guarantee HU to HS promotion by using IB. If the chance fails then you just wasted a HU with IB off cd.
Comparing the GCD damage of IB to FB cast, 28k for IB for 1.3 second GCD or average 48k Fireball at ~2 second cast time
or roughly 21.5k dps vs 24k dps to guarantee a average 75k !Pyroblast vs a chance at said !Pyroblast
And I thing the HS+HU combo works out better if ....
FB>!PB>FB>!PB, rather than FB>!PB>!PB simply because you have to wait nearly the full GCD to see if you did or didnt proc the HS, instead you fill it with a FB or run the risk of a hardcasted Pyroblast. Or should we always fish for a HU before using HS or untill 2 seconds before the HS drops?

On the other hand we have the risk of FB>!PB on a HS only that the FB will crit and the !PB will cancel your HU proc from the FB... QQ

well the thing is with the Cd coming back up on IB, is that if you at that point (only got HS) do fb->!pyro->IB or just !pyro->IB you wont get another HS as the !pyro triggers GCD and HU cancel delay is only 0.5s.
If you only have HS when IB comes up, you can use IB to gain HS+HU and do Fb->!pyro or simply use it to spread bombs on a cleave fight, as we all know it can suck getting the HU just as dots runs out cause you have to make the choice; do i want HS or spreading my 3bombs+(pyrodot).

I would also like to state that it is extremely rare for me not getting the HS+HU before IB is off cd again.

And as you concluded in your last sentence if you only have HS and do Fb-!pyro you have a chance of munching a HU, so if people for any reason want to do !pyro without HS+HU they should do it right after IB

about the fb->!pyro->Fb->!pyro being better than Fb->!pyro->!pyro. please re read my first post:

The basic rotation should be

1. Spam fireball till HU->proc HS with IB.
2. Continue to spam fireball till you get HU
You now have HS+HU
3. You already have a fireball in cast. follow up with !pyro
4. Fireball
If only one of the two(FB/!pyro) crits you gain HS: Go to step two.
If Both FB and !pyro crits you gain HS+HU: Go to step three.

[elpadrino293]

On the other hand we have the risk of FB>!PB on a HS only that the FB will crit and the !PB will cancel your HU proc from the FB... QQ

when you only have a HotStreak, you dont FB/!Pyro. you wait until you have both HU&HS, either by another fireball crit or forced inferno blast. chaining pyroblast! procs together is for building larger ignites for combustion. while combustion is on cooldown, you can get more pyroblast! procs by waiting til you have HU&HS for the double roll on your FB/P! combo.

---------- Post added 2012-11-09 at 11:04 AM ----------

The basic rotation should be

1. Apply Mage Bomb/Pyroblast DoT.
2. Cast Fireball until Heating Up.
3a. With just a Heating Up buff present, cast Inferno Blast if available immediately after the next Fireball for a forced Hot Streak.
3b. With both buffs present, Heating Up and Hot Streak, cast Pyroblast! immediately after the next Fireball for a double roll for better odds to reward another Hot Streak.

[Deleted]

perhaps they play more than one spec. i have no math to support it, but personally i just don't care for windsong as fire. i couldn't care less about the mastery. i'm at my desired haste plateau, so i don't really care for a haste gain for the sole purpose of a slightly faster cast time. i wouldn't take 1500 crit over 1650 int any day of the week, and when a spell doesn't crit then that 1500 crit rating isn't helping.

Im baffled by your logic. What you're implying is that haste is completely useless between plateaus, mastery does absolutely nothing.. And what really made me laugh is "if something doesn't crit, my crit rating is usless". How did you work that out? Increase crit is an increased CHANCE, every spell you cast has more of a CHANCE to crit. So, the crit chance is working on every spell.

I've seen it written by mages in top guilds (Method etc) that Jade Spirit is better for fire, whereas this guide says differently. This guide is the only one with maths to back it up. What I'm asking is if anything has changed that I'm missing out on or is Windsong definitely mathematically better, because I need to enchant my new weapon and am struggling with conflicting ideas.

[dennisdkramer]

I think the problem is that windsong is *supposed* to be 2 procs per minute, putting it at 24s/60 - a 40% uptime. In reality, we're seeing more like 60% uptime with it and nobody knows for sure why. That's why the math and the reality arent lining up, as far as I'm aware.

[mrgreenthump]

when you only have a HotStreak, you dont FB/!Pyro. you wait until you have both HU&HS, either by another fireball crit or forced inferno blast. chaining pyroblast! procs together is for building larger ignites for combustion. while combustion is on cooldown, you can get more pyroblast! procs by waiting til you have HU&HS for the double roll on your FB/P! combo.

---------- Post added 2012-11-09 at 11:04 AM ----------

The basic rotation should be

1. Apply Mage Bomb/Pyroblast DoT.
2. Cast Fireball until Heating Up.
3a. With just a Heating Up buff present, cast Inferno Blast if available immediately after the next Fireball for a forced Hot Streak.
3b. With both buffs present, Heating Up and Hot Streak, cast Pyroblast! immediately after the next Fireball for a double roll for better odds to reward another Hot Streak.

And yet we even at BiS our fireball and pyro will have under 50% crit chance, to get to a point that you have HU+ HS, you will have your IB off cd allmost allways, and even then, you do the fireball + HS, you get another HS, use it, then cast 1-4 fireballs to get another heating up to get a new HS, and then 1-4 fireballs to get heating up and the cycle repeats..

This way you will prolly use IB every 14(10 if really lucky)-21 secs, Now the question stands which is really better way to go abt it. The gain on average is prolly 3 HS's in 12-21 secs vs casting the normal rotation vs Fireball>HS rotation, Fireball> HS is prolly most HS procs on average and it lets you use IB on CD unless you get really lucky and get chain crits for 8 secs

But hey its just me spinning the numbers in my head atm and got NO DATA at all to back it up.

[Windry]

1. Apply Mage Bomb/Pyroblast DoT.
2. Cast Fireball until Heating Up.
3a. With just a Heating Up buff present, cast Inferno Blast if available immediately after the next Fireball for a forced Hot Streak.
3b. With both buffs present, Heating Up and Hot Streak, cast Pyroblast! immediately after the next Fireball for a double roll for better odds to reward another Hot Streak.

In terms of this rotation, I tried it out in raid last night, and while it definitely worked, I saw a major flaw in this tactic, mainly that sitting on a pyro for a long time doesn't gain you any benefit. Anyways, I know I said I'd update the OP today, but I actually want to wait till Tuesday to think about it and do a little math (plus I'm pretty freakin busy this weekend).

In terms of the Windsong vs Jade Spirit - I did the math on post #36 of page 2. Whether or not it's bugged, or poor implementation of RPPM, Windsong is showing up with higher than expected uptime, making it better than Jade Spirit.

The argument of, "sometimes I play Frost, and I don't want to constantly swap between Windsong and Jade Spirit" is fine. The argument of, "I don't really care about secondary stats..." is a pretty terrible argument.

Important to note though: Jade Spirit will be changed to 2 RPPM in 5.1 or one of the upcoming patches. When that happens, it will most likely blow Windsong out of the water.

[elpadrino293]

... it lets you use IB on CD unless you get really lucky...[/U]

why would you use IB on cooldown? you won't always be Heating Up when the spell comes off cooldown.

sitting on a pyro for a long time doesn't gain you any benefit.

the benefit is a higher success rate for Pyroblast! procs. you're not losing out on any procs by holding onto it for a few seconds, if you haven't gotten both buffs before your Pyroblast! proc is going to expire, you just use the proc... i'm failing to see the downside.

---------- Post added 2012-11-10 at 03:35 AM ----------

Im baffled by your logic.

Okay then here we go from the top. my logic outside the plateaus is as follows. My numbers are showing roughly 425.035 haste rating for 1% haste. 3039 haste rating was showing 7.15% haste on my character sheet, and showing 12.51% haste while raid buffed. So an additional 1500 haste rating is roughly an additional 3.53% haste rating (1500/425.035=3.529). With an additional 3.53% haste or 1500 haste rating, the character sheet would show 10.68% haste [(3039+1500)/425.035=10.679], and 16.21% (1.10679*1.05) while raid buffed. While raid buffed with no Windsong-Haste proc, the Fireball cast time shows 2.00 seconds (2.25/1.1251=1.9998). While raid buffed with a Windsong-Haste proc, the Fireball cast time is 1.936 seconds (2.25/1.1621=1.936). The buff has a duration of 12 seconds, in which 6 fireballs could be cast without the buff active [12 sec/(2 sec/1 fireball)=6 fireballs]. During that same time, 6.2 fireballs could be cast with the buff active [12 sec/(1.936 sec/1 fireball)=6.198 fireballs]. which concludes that you need the buff to proc five times to gain just 1 fireball worth of damage or 2 seconds of cast time (5*6.0 fireballs=30.00 ; 5*6.2 fireballs=31.00 ; 31-30=1 fireball).

Mastery only affects the contribution to ignite, which is roughly 10% of my overall damage done. The 1500 mastery provided by Windsong-Mastery gives an additional 3.75% (1500/400=3.75). That is only 3,750 extra damage added to the ignite pool for every 100k of direct damage done, only an extra 1250 -1875 damage per tick per 100k damage done. And when i'm looking in the area of 35k for MINIMUM ignites, +/- 1.2k-1.9k doesn't change my decision to use combustion or not.

[Emek]

Has there been any update on jade spirit in terms of it being better than windsong? I finally got the wand off elegon and i'm not lookin to waste 5k haha. if it's the best no doubt i'll get it, but if it's not i don't want to lol

[Santoryu]

The ignite spell has an upper threshold, which is based on your current damage output. I tested this with scorch and once the dot had reached a certain number it started from scratch. Although I am very happy with the guide, especially the proactive combustion method.

[Deleted]

With 5.1 and only ignite affecting combustion, will the proactive method for cumbustion be obsolete?
Im just switching to fire and im not sure if i should get used to it for 1or 2weeks till the patch is out.

[Ceforium]

No it won't. Your pyro is still gonna be the major contributor to your ignite. They are adding 3 second cooldown to pyro which may change things a bit but not much.

[Envyadams]

No it won't. Your pyro is still gonna be the major contributor to your ignite. They are adding 3 second cooldown to pyro which may change things a bit but not much.

3s CD no longer in the works