Thread: Fire Mage Guide

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  1. #201
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ceforium View Post
    No it won't. Your pyro is still gonna be the major contributor to your ignite. They are adding 3 second cooldown to pyro which may change things a bit but not much.
    You might have skipped the patch notes in which they removed the cooldown from Pyroblast. The buff to ignite's contribution to pyroblast was to counter the potential nerf from the cooldown, but as the cooldown was removed, it is highly likely that they will revert ignite change as well, unless they plan to nerf some other spell to compensate. There are many options, it's best to just be patient ad way for the next ptr build.

  2. #202
    So I'm trying out a new playstyle after reading some tips off the OP. My normal play style was just keep an eye on my ignite value and pop combustion when it feels right, the stuff OP posted is supposed to vastly improve upon that by supplying "on demand" high ignites, however, I'm not really seeing the improvement? The only difference I notice is the comfort of having Scorch being taken away.

    I'm doing like so: fireball till heating up > inferno blast > refresh bomb > pop altertime/pom macro > instant pyro > instant pyro > hit macro again > instant pyro > instant pyro > combustion. On average after this sequence I'm getting 21-23k non crit combust ticks (42-46k crit ticks). I've had higher just playing by feel and not sacrificing scorch for an apparently better build up. Something I'm doing wrong? I even noticed that on the combust where you just use PoM for x2 pyro's, it gave me an ignite so low it was an utter waste to combust at that point, so then I have to wait for a decent ignite, which throws the whole cooldown rotation off by a pretty large amount.

    I'm not seeing the on demand large ignite, to me this macro is added complication and doesn't give much benefit, if any, to a regular "make it up as you go" combustion.

    I'm running 41.25% crit (inc CM) and 19.94% mastery self buffed.

    Your persistence of vision does not come without great sacrifice. Let go of the tangible mass of your mind, it is only an illusion. There is no escape.. For the soul burns on everlasting encapsulated within infinite time. A thousand year journey at the blink of an eye... Humanity is dust..

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakna View Post
    So I'm trying out a new playstyle after reading some tips off the OP. My normal play style was just keep an eye on my ignite value and pop combustion when it feels right, the stuff OP posted is supposed to vastly improve upon that by supplying "on demand" high ignites, however, I'm not really seeing the improvement? The only difference I notice is the comfort of having Scorch being taken away.

    I'm doing like so: fireball till heating up > inferno blast > refresh bomb > pop altertime/pom macro > instant pyro > instant pyro > hit macro again > instant pyro > instant pyro > combustion. On average after this sequence I'm getting 21-23k non crit combust ticks (42-46k crit ticks). I've had higher just playing by feel and not sacrificing scorch for an apparently better build up. Something I'm doing wrong? I even noticed that on the combust where you just use PoM for x2 pyro's, it gave me an ignite so low it was an utter waste to combust at that point, so then I have to wait for a decent ignite, which throws the whole cooldown rotation off by a pretty large amount.

    I'm not seeing the on demand large ignite, to me this macro is added complication and doesn't give much benefit, if any, to a regular "make it up as you go" combustion.

    I'm running 41.25% crit (inc CM) and 19.94% mastery self buffed.
    You should prolly try to get Heating up + HS up, refresh bomb, start casting a fireball then pop the macro and most of the times it leads to HS+HS+PoM pyro+ AT+ HS+ PoM pyro/HS

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    You should prolly try to get Heating up + HS up, refresh bomb, start casting a fireball then pop the macro and most of the times it leads to HS+HS+PoM pyro+ AT+ HS+ PoM pyro/HS
    I'm pretty sure that the first 1-2 pyro-ignites would have fully ticked away by the time that sequence is finished, making it kind of pointless, no?

    All I'm seeing here, is that this optimizing for large ignite build ups is based just as much on random luck as if you weren't using it, and when it fails to provide a large ignite, which is most cases in my experience, it screws up every future combust by staggering your cooldowns. For example, if I were to use this playstyle, I would probably use combustion once less than if I wasn't using this playstyle, on the average boss fight, because it's based far too much on having luck in a VERY specific time window. There is no guaranteed on demand ignite.

    In my experience, all this is doing is making you more prone to wasting combustion on a low ignite and at the same time removing a very powerful movement spell.

    Your persistence of vision does not come without great sacrifice. Let go of the tangible mass of your mind, it is only an illusion. There is no escape.. For the soul burns on everlasting encapsulated within infinite time. A thousand year journey at the blink of an eye... Humanity is dust..

  5. #205
    Staggering your cooldowns, PoM has a 1.5 min cd, so has glyphed Combustion... unless you already lucky enough to have the 4 piece.
    Alter time has 3 minute cd, they line up perfectly.

    For your ignite to tick away you need 6 seconds, with Instacasts only triggering the GCD you can fit in 4 casts into that window...
    Which makes the guarantee of HS + PoM / AT / HS + PoM of 4 !PB
    Your/my average PB hitting 46k, adding 7200 to the ignite bank. (15.9% mastery for me)

    Every 2 seconds 1/3 of your ignite bank is used up by ignite ticking. Starting from T0 where you cast your first Pyroblast... Building an ignite reliably of >20k is a guarantee even without any crits in there. More crits make for more ignite.
    This is starting from 0 in the ignite bank which is not realistic to be honest, on average you can expect just from some FB damage 7-8 ticks on Ignite, which * 2 should have 14k in the ignite bank to start. Which should up your average ignite into combustion to >25k.
    If in that string of 4, two actualy crit, your ignite will go to 32k.

    So get off 4 !PB, preferably with atleast a few crits in there, preferably with some nice intellect procs, and presto hit combustion.

    Mind you this is flat calculations, no buffs other than intellect (no Envoker's Energy or anything along those lines)

  6. #206
    I know the math, and I know it looks good on paper, but it's not working out as well as I'd thought in practice. I'm getting a decent combust off with the alter time/pom part, but it's around equal to the combusts I would get off all the time anyway when just popping it without a proactive build up.

    On the 2nd, 4th, 6th etc.. combustions, when alter time is on cd and PoM is the only one available, that's where I'm noticing a big drop in ignite values. I saw a 9.2k ignite after pyro > pom pyro at one point, meaning I had to delay combust till I actually got a good ignite. Which is what I mean by staggering the cooldown, since it wasn't available immediately for the next AT, creating a cascade effect down the line. I'm fairly sure I could make a combustion equal to the first alter time one, roughly on time with the cd, and without relying on PoM so I can keep scorch.

    I know it looks good on paper, but it's not working out for me.

    Your persistence of vision does not come without great sacrifice. Let go of the tangible mass of your mind, it is only an illusion. There is no escape.. For the soul burns on everlasting encapsulated within infinite time. A thousand year journey at the blink of an eye... Humanity is dust..

  7. #207
    I've been running into the same thing, Vakna. I spent about an hour on dummies yesterday (just checking back into game every 5 minutes to try another round of everything off CD) and I was averaging around 22k ticks of Combustion. This was with proficient use of the macro; five or more Pyroblasts landing within a few seconds of each other. It's really confusing and I'm wondering if there is some old school ignite munching going on.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by azzgunther View Post
    I've been running into the same thing, Vakna. I spent about an hour on dummies yesterday (just checking back into game every 5 minutes to try another round of everything off CD) and I was averaging around 22k ticks of Combustion. This was with proficient use of the macro; five or more Pyroblasts landing within a few seconds of each other. It's really confusing and I'm wondering if there is some old school ignite munching going on.
    I am wondering about that too, because even with x2 pyro non crits, ignite should not be below 10k, which is what I have been seeing with the pyro/pom-pyro round.

    All things considered, I don't think it is even necessary to go with the "proactive" approach. Got 85k dps (with a combustion critting 116k's) on Garajal normal tonight just making it up as I go, and it felt much much more comfortable than the whole super-macro pyro spammage stuff.

    Your persistence of vision does not come without great sacrifice. Let go of the tangible mass of your mind, it is only an illusion. There is no escape.. For the soul burns on everlasting encapsulated within infinite time. A thousand year journey at the blink of an eye... Humanity is dust..

  9. #209
    For those not using the "pro-active method", what would you call a good Ignite number to use combustion on? Using the PoM/Altertime i get varying values anywhere from 40k all the way up to 100k+. When my combustion isnt up and Im just dpsing, I barely ever see numbers over 40k on myBigIgnite so I'm reluctant to stop using PoM/Altertime.

  10. #210
    Key factor to having a HUGE ignite and thus huge combustion is definatly having a nice Intellect proc up from Lightweave or Relic or Jade Spirit, this I think makes combustion bigger and better much more so than PoM-AT can do... simply because you are bound to a short window to up your Ignite, it is decreasing in value every 2 seconds.
    You cannot hit more than 5 (if your lucky at 0.2, 1.5, 2.8, 4.1, 5.4 seconds) !Pyro inside the 6 second window.... just isnt possible to hit more.

    Only way to increase over that is moar intellect/spellpower, unless you get very lucky with the predator proc and your crit rating and crit all 5 !Pyro.
    With the proper buffs up, Pyro for me can hit upwards of 150k
    Lightweave + Relic + Invokers Energy, add a nice Mastery proc from windsong as well as an haste one for moar deeps on the Pyro dot, yes proc luck but yeah when it all lines up there are your 100k ignite ticks :P
    Not even counting debuffs or buffs from the boss fights, (Elegon and Gara'jal come to mind in MSV, Garalon legs in HoF)

  11. #211
    hallo all =) if u have some minutes, plz help me and read this wall of text ^^

    1. question about Gara'jal the Spiritbinder (10 H)
    after amount of wipes our RL at last recognized that we need setup 2.5 healers with dc Discipline priest
    but enrage timer so small to us 2% and wipe.. =( i always did ~34mln damage, i think it's good damage, but think that i can did MOAR MOAR AND MOAR !111! => i think my main mistake is that when i back from portal i have stacked buff, but don't have evo_buff, and i damage until the end of stacks, and only after that i using evo. i think there's 2 solutions => 1) i use evo in my ending in portal, 2) change evo to rune of power. or maybe 3, that i did all good?)

    2. i realy don't understand in what type of fights i should use non_glypfed combust
    i always use glyphed, in pull i use them whem alter time + pom help me, then i use combust with pom and repeat

    3. ask about challenge mode (gold)
    i have 4 silvers and want to go for gold ^^ so think that frost spec is better then fire, but i don't really sure about this
    on gold all need a lot of aoe, and from 2 question, may be we need non_glyphed combust for trash?

    thx for reading :3

  12. #212
    hallo all =) if u have some minutes, plz help me ^^
    1. i realy don't understand in what type of fights i should use non_glypfed combust
    i always use glyphed, in pull i use them whem alter time + pom help me, then i use combust with pom and repeat

    2. ask about challenge mode (gold)
    i have 4 silvers and want to go for gold ^^ so think that frost spec is better then fire, but i don't really sure about this
    on gold all need a lot of aoe, and from 2 question, may be we need non_glyphed combust for trash?

    thx for reading :3
    Last edited by Ardolas; 2012-11-12 at 09:02 PM.

  13. #213
    High Overlord Abraxis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardolas View Post
    hallo all =) if u have some minutes, plz help me ^^
    1. i realy don't understand in what type of fights i should use non_glypfed combust
    i always use glyphed, in pull i use them whem alter time + pom help me, then i use combust with pom and repeat

    2. ask about challenge mode (gold)
    i have 4 silvers and want to go for gold ^^ so think that frost spec is better then fire, but i don't really sure about this
    on gold all need a lot of aoe, and from 2 question, may be we need non_glyphed combust for trash?

    thx for reading :3
    I do every fight with glyphed combustion, so if u haven't problems in getting high combustions u ca use it everywhere.

    Gold Challenges. I did all as fire with my raidspecc (PoM, Invo).
    Its not all about AoE, its more about groupsetup and tactics.

    If u like i can link u all gold run videos from our grp. PoV is Heal Monk/Guardian Druid. But maybe u can see some things i do, and that there's not always mage AoE needed.




    At this 2 youtube users u'll find all gold runs.
    Last edited by Abraxis; 2012-11-13 at 07:29 AM.

  14. #214
    I much prefer frost for challenge modes. Its AoE on large groups feels stronger, and I can do similar single target dmg for bosses.

  15. #215
    Where is the 6 second value for ignite coming from? Based on my understanding of dot refreshes 6 seconds would be the absolute maximum possible time from direct damage to ignite finish, but this is NOT the value that you should expect. If you try for 5 pyros in a row, you are VERY likely to see the first pyro roll out of ignite. If that first pyro was a huge crit, then you have just made a devastating mistake trying to fit 5 pyros in.

  16. #216
    Has anyone simmed the new dmf trinket yet?

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Emek View Post
    Has anyone simmed the new dmf trinket yet?
    GC's twitter says that it's a tooltip bug coming as a result of the new point scaling, the trinket is not being nerfed, though how that makes any sense I don't know.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    GC's twitter says that it's a tooltip bug coming as a result of the new point scaling, the trinket is not being nerfed, though how that makes any sense I don't know.
    They said even before MoP came out that trinkets would probably see special attention in regards to challenge mode scaling. This is the scaling he is refering to. It makes complete sense, much more so than people freaking out over datamined values.
    Last edited by Pyryte; 2012-11-13 at 08:23 PM.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by dennisdkramer View Post
    Where is the 6 second value for ignite coming from?
    You are right, however if the first is a big crit that is immediately devided over those 3 ticks that happen in the 6 seconds (assuming you already have a ignite ticking)
    So 1/3 of your tick will happen at 6 seconds, to build the biggest ignite possible you need to be lucky for your pyro's to hit as I discribed AND get your combustion in before the 6 second tick.
    4 pyro's of which 2 critting would be more reliable IMHO.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by namliam View Post
    You are right, however if the first is a big crit that is immediately devided over those 3 ticks that happen in the 6 seconds (assuming you already have a ignite ticking)
    So 1/3 of your tick will happen at 6 seconds, to build the biggest ignite possible you need to be lucky for your pyro's to hit as I discribed AND get your combustion in before the 6 second tick.
    4 pyro's of which 2 critting would be more reliable IMHO.
    Ohh ignite mechanics are even more interesting than I thought.

    for this example lets go with 30% mastery

    you have a 9k ignite up with 1 second remaining until your next tick when your pyroblast crits for 100k, adding 30k to your ignite pool
    your ignite is refreshed to 5 seconds, leaving you with 39k pending ignite damage.

    (lets assume a 1.3s GCD)
    0 you have a 9k ignite up with 1 second remaining when your pyroblast crits for 100k adding 30k to the pool
    0 your ignite is refreshed to 5 seconds with 39k in the pool
    1 your ignite ticks for 13k
    1.3 your next pyro hits for 50k with adding 15k to the pool for a total of 41k
    1.3 your ignite is refreshed to 5.7 seconds
    2.6 your next pyro hits for 50k adding 15k for a total of 56k
    **********
    3.0 your ignite ticks for 18.7k, leaving 37.3k in the pool

    *- you have a .4 second window in which to combustion for a good ignite, which means you have to be paying attention not only to your current ignite amount, but exactly WHEN its going to tick

    You can see clearly in this example how one crit pyro can and often does outweigh casting more. This is primarily because of the refresh mechanic of ignite - if your *first* pyro is the big crit that you want, its damage is chopped out of that ignite every time ignite ticks at a logarithmic rate.
    Last edited by dennisdkramer; 2012-11-14 at 02:20 PM.

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