Fire Mage Guide

[Keyblader]

How do you get Heroic Elite gear? Go re-read post #230

Yea I got all that, just to me it seemed weird that even the normal elite crackling would be better than normal Loshan with the legendary gem in it.

Edit: also none of the cracklings have the sha touched socket, but both normal and heroic loshan do.

[Methusula]

I am really having a difficult time figuring out why you would take crackling dagger over the sha touched loshan.... on both normal and heroic.

Regail's Crackling Dagger has a 516 heroic elite version while Loshan only has a 509 heroic version. the extra stats and spellpower from the higher item level outweigh the sha-touched socket.

[mrgreenthump]

Regail's Crackling Dagger has a 516 heroic elite version while Loshan only has a 509 heroic version. the extra stats and spellpower from the higher item level outweigh the sha-touched socket.

But not by much, the difference is really small.. so ye pick which ever really

[Keyblader]

Regail's Crackling Dagger has a 516 heroic elite version while Loshan only has a 509 heroic version. the extra stats and spellpower from the higher item level outweigh the sha-touched socket.

Actually Heroic Loshan has higher intellect, and crit, not as much haste as regail's has mastery, but haste nonetheless. Regail's has around 500 more spellpower than loshan, does that 500ish extra spellpower outweigh a 600 intellect gem?

[Windry]

The legendary gem is 500 int.

If the 516 Crackling Dagger does not have a legendary socket, then yes Loshan (with a legendary gem) will outweigh it.

The dungeon journal and WoWhead both have 516 Crackling Dagger with a blue socket... so I'm going to go back to the BiS list and make the change.

[mrgreenthump]

The legendary gem is 500 int.

If the 516 Crackling Dagger does not have a legendary socket, then yes Loshan (with a legendary gem) will outweigh it.

The dungeon journal and WoWhead both have 516 Crackling Dagger with a blue socket... so I'm going to go back to the BiS list and make the change.

Mastery is stronger than haste at BiS, not by a lot but still is, crackling has 40 int less, but a blue socket with 60 crit bonus, so socket will be 220 crit and 160 hit(mastery weight from reforge).. and the sp difference is 534. So its 540 int, 385(free for reforge) haste vs 149 crit, 572(412 free for reforge) mastery and 534 sp

[Deleted]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but how would your Pyro, which is in midair, eat a HS proc by not critting?

Because your FB in "mid air" was followed by an instant Pyroblast from the hot streak.
Thus 0.05 seconds after the Fireball critting your target, your Pyroblast will hit it.... eating the Heating up.

UNLESS you are VERY precise and have a GCD of only 1 second ....

[Xorn]

So with Jade Spirit changing to the Windsong proc rate/system, I imagine that it will pull ahead of it as an enchant.

[mrgreenthump]

So with Jade Spirit changing to the Windsong proc rate/system, I imagine that it will pull ahead of it as an enchant.

For my mage(ilvl 487) atm... 1,1*4,27/((2,34+2,18+1,63)/3)= 2,29 times better
For BiS(crackling elite).. 1,1*5,49/((3,54+2,71+2,46)/3)= 2,08 times better

[Deleted]

Hi guys,

So last week StX3 brought up a point about the basic rotation for fire mages. He referenced a thread by Elpadrino that explained an interesting interaction as follows:

When you have the instant-pyro buff and the heating up buff.... if you cast a fireball and queue up the instant-pyro right after, as long as 1 of them crits, it will move upgrade your heating up buff to another instant-pyro.

This essentially gives you 2 chances to roll. This also lead to the filler rotation of:
HU= Heating Up
HS= Hot Streak
IB= Inferno Blast

1. Spam fireball till HU->proc HS with IB.
2. Continue to spam fireball till you get HU
You now have HS+HU
3. You already have a fireball in cast. follow up with !pyro
4. Fireball
If only one of the two(FB/!pyro) crits you gain HS: Go to step two.
If Both FB and !pyro crits you gain HS+HU: Go to step three.

I realized a problem with this rotation, however. Unfortunately, I am unable to say for certain which rotation is better.

I would really appreciate it if someone could make the appropriate changes and simulate the different rotation.

The best way I could think of demonstrating my thoughts is through a series of scenario examples. For that of course, I have to pick an arbitrary crit chance, and it would vary depending on what you're actual crit is.

For my example: lets say you have 33% crit with molten armor and brilliance. This leads to a 45% crit chance on a skull mob after taking into account crit suppression and Critical Mass passive.

Using the Altered Rotation: If you have HU and HS, and you cast a fireball->insta pyro, the chances would be:
30.25% chance neither crit
49.50% chance only 1 crits
20.25% chance both crit

With this: we can see that we have a 69.75% chance to bump our HU into a HS (as opposed to the 45% chance we'd normally have)

Now if you go with an old rotation queuing up an IB and using the Pyroblast immediately after, you will not be able to force your next 2 fireballs into a crit (since IB is on CD).

However, once the first 2 fireballs past, we and IB is ready, we have 100% chance to bump that HU into HS. If you sat on your HS buff, and you fished for the HU buff, you only have 70% chance to turn that buff into HS and you lose the opportunity to queue fireball -> IB.

So, with this altered rotation, we have a trade off of:
25% bonus chance to get a HS right after pyro
but at the cost of:
30% less chance to get a HS after pyro (when the first 2 fireballs afterwards do not crit)
^ this of course would probably be around 9% less chance in general.

The problem is: the first two spells after HS Pyro aren't always fireball. For instance, if your next spell is going to be evocate after this pyro, it makes obvious sense not to wait for a HU buff before casting the pyro. Mage Bomb and level 90 talents of course complicate the subject, so really the only thing I can say is, I don't really know which way is better. It'd be nice if someone could make a simulation for it.

First of all, after some extra weeks of raiding i have realised this as well, IB comes off CD after the 2 fireballs that follows HS(forced with ib). And there fore if you do not gain the !HS by either of the FB/!pyro critting you essentially waisting a HU you could have converted to HS with IB. Though casting !pyro just after a FB without having the HU will have the chance of munching a HU if FB crits and !pyro does not, so you are kind of already committed to getting the HU at this point. What i have been doing if i dont get that HU within the 2 FB's is to "hope" for Bomb refresh to come, as this ICD would allow you to see if FB crits. Or if i have mirror image up i will use that to force a ICD. so basically the only way to save your "ass" is to force some kind of instant so you dont munch, or stick with it and wait for HU and you can then use IB to spread bombs/pyro dots(thinking of stuff like stone guards etc ) i dont have the math but choosing the Force !pyro with IB and then not have IB to spread bombs/pyro dot, over a ~70% chance of another HS + spreading both bombs and Pyro dot is not the best choice, this occurs every time you gain HU within ~5s of bombs running out.

However the HS+HU->FB->!pyro i still always apply to my combustion build up, this is the most important part of building ignite for combust imo. I am yet to try out the PoM trick because i dont have troubles getting 3+(with AT) and 2+(without AT) Combustions, and the way crit influence your ignite much more than having 3 or 5 pyro's , makes PoM an inferior choice compared to scorch with all the movement there is in almost every fight IMO. IE you crit on first 1/2 pyro in the PoM+AT chain but continues with it, by the end of the chain those crits are not in ignite pool any more.

But you are right there are Pro's and cons for both ways of doing it, and it would be nice to get some more clarification in the area as it is definitely and interesting aspect of playing fire mage, and i think if applied rightfully taking both the gain and loss into account this might be one of the biggest contributors to our high or low dps, just after building combustions perfect, though they are somewhat connected. In the end i think a combination of both(using HS on proc / HS+hu->fb-!pyro) will yield the best result, using HS on proc when combust is on cd and HS+hu for combustion + fishing 2 FB's if bomb is ~6s from expiring / having other instant casts you can/need use.

..... well ok ....


Dont you mean:
25% bonus chance to get a HU right before pyro
???

When you lauch a FB>!PB you have a 24.75% chance to proc HS on the FB and "eat" it with the !PB (Crit/non-crit)

My gut feeling as I did post back on page 6, you dont cast the !Pyro untill IB is nearly off CD, that way you have a 70% chance to proc another HS vs 0% had you launched your !Pyro immediatly

You are making no sense and i think you confuse HU with HS. please read(re-read?) the posts about this subject. and remember when we talk about FB-!pyro it is assuming you already have HS+HU. after FB you consume HS-!Pyro, you now have only HU and FB+!pyro is mid air, they will both land within less than 0.5s of each other, now because HU have a 0.5 cancel delay if ANY of them crit you gain HS, if BOTH of them crit you gain HS+HU again.

If you use !pyro and follow with HU you can only gain HS if the !pyro crit, !pyro is instant spell so it triggers ICD and therefore using IB after that is pointless.

Because your FB in "mid air" was followed by an instant Pyroblast from the hot streak.
Thus 0.05 seconds after the Fireball critting your target, your Pyroblast will hit it.... eating the Heating up.

UNLESS you are VERY precise and have a GCD of only 1 second ....

No as explained you have HS+HU when you do FB-!pyro so the FB crit would generate a HS.................

[mrgreenthump]

No as explained you have HS+HU when you do FB-!pyro so the FB crit would generate a HS.................

And hows that working for you? I really dont see you ranking much on WoL.. I'm still gonna stand by HU--->fireball--> IB--> fireball---> HS is prolly the best way to gain additional HS's. As if the fireball before IB crits, you get HS+HU, and then you cast fireball and HS at the same time, and if either crit, you get another HS, If fireball before IB doesnt crit, you still have a chance to get additional HS if both fireball and HS crit

But hey thats just me throwing this out there, and my gear is seriously starting to get behind atm So cannot compare to top mages on WoL atm

[Deleted]

And hows that working for you? I really dont see you ranking much on WoL.. I'm still gonna stand by HU--->fireball--> IB--> fireball---> HS is prolly the best way to gain additional HS's. As if the fireball before IB crits, you get HS+HU, and then you cast fireball and HS at the same time, and if either crit, you get another HS, If fireball before IB doesnt crit, you still have a chance to get additional HS if both fireball and HS crit

But hey thats just me throwing this out there, and my gear is seriously starting to get behind atm So cannot compare to top mages on WoL atm

First of all wtf does WoL have to do with this?. 2end off I am currently ranked as the nr 2000 ilvl mage you expect me to gain top200 on every fight with that?... 3rdly most fights you can DPS whore and not do your job.. If you followed ranks the first 2 weeks i was ranking top 50th on every fight + the fact that i am usually within 1% of the rank200 with gear rank 2000 should tell you something. so please dont use WoL as an argument, at least when it have nothing to do with the theory?.. But hey its easy to hide behind a name.

Namliam made NO sense what so ever. he said the FB crit would cancel/munch a HS...

Did i ever say not to HU->FB->IB ???? NO!! Read................ windry even posted my rotation:

1. Spam fireball till HU->proc HS with IB. <----------- SEE??
2. Continue to spam fireball till you get HU
You now have HS+HU
3. You already have a fireball in cast. follow up with !pyro
4. Fireball
If only one of the two(FB/!pyro) crits you gain HS: Go to step two.
If Both FB and !pyro crits you gain HS+HU: Go to step three.

Now after hu->FB->IB(FB dont crit). you say we should do FB-!pyro witch is dead stupid cause if FB crits at this point you munch HU, unless !pyro also crits, but with only a ~20%(at 33%base crit, see windry's post above) That is not viable. It is either use !pyro after an instant cast or use it after FB with hs+hu.

Again i could ask you to read(re-read??) my post you quoted only a fraction off and i explained the Pro's and Cons of using that method in various ways.

Sorry for my pretty harsh tone here but i am getting pretty tired of explaining this.

[Deleted]

If you ONLY have a HS, then cast FB>!PB and your Fireball crits, the !Pyro will make the HU disappear

First you say I make no sence, then you turn around and say exactly the same thing...

Now after hu->FB->IB. you say we should do FB-!pyro witch is dead stupid cause if FB crits at this point you munch HU, unless !pyro also crits, but with only a ~20%(at 33%base crit, see windry's post above) That is not viable. It is either use !pyro after an instant cast or use it after FB with hs+hu.

It is a trade off though... Have HS and fish for HU during IB CD, offcourse... 70% chance of a free !PB, which is significantly better than the 45% you have of the next fireball (or any other single cast) critting
But should you keep fishing after the CD of IB?
By casting FB>!PB with only HS, you have a 25% chance to munch your HU, but guarantee a future HU to be promoted to HS by IB.
By keeping the HS and fishing for HU, you can then cast FB>!PB without fear of munching but you have a 30% chance of not procing HS.

if you compare the dps of Fireball to that of IB/Pyro, guess its not that great a deal in perticular since one time it can swing one way and other time another way.
However since IB/Pyro has higher dps than Fireball AND the fact that the IB forced Hot Streak has a lower chance of creating a dps loss (munching HU) I am inclined to say you should not keep fishing for HU once IB is about to come off cd.

[Deleted]

Hi all,

With the change to rep weapons enchants to RPPM mechanic, is windsong still the best solution for fire?

Also, could someone clarify how RPPM works? I kinda lost.

Thanks.

[KoolKidKaos]

Excellent guide!

I was well aware of everything week 1, and have been trying to motivate my fellow guild mages to move away from Int, at least for this tier. A bunch of non believers, but it's great to see you would take the time, and help out the light blue community. Cheers! =)

[mrgreenthump]

First of all wtf does WoL have to do with this?. 2end off I am currently ranked as the nr 2000 ilvl mage you expect me to gain top200 on every fight with that?... 3rdly most fights you can DPS whore and not do your job.. If you followed ranks the first 2 weeks i was ranking top 50th on every fight + the fact that i am usually within 1% of the rank200 with gear rank 2000 should tell you something. so please dont use WoL as an argument, at least when it have nothing to do with the theory?.. But hey its easy to hide behind a name.

I got 487 ilevel, and that is worse than you aint it? I dont dps whore, I just execute my rotation as good as I can, Am I top geared, nope, do I have high SP weapon, nope. Do I have 2nd epic trinket, nope. And yet I still pull ranks on bosses. So hence my disbelieve of this actually working proper. I mean surely you would have some really good ranks if its better. Still maybe not the best choice of words in my post and I apologize if it made u feel bad somehow.

[Windry]

@shendow - Jade Spirit will be a clear winner once it is moved to RPPM. We discuss how RPPM works on page 3 of the guide (you can read post 50 or 52) The problem is, even with the way blizzard described it, we are seeing much higher uptime on live. Whether it's a bug or just poor implementation, the really high uptime is why Windsong > Jade Spirit right now. Once Jade Spirit is moved to RPPM (and they're both going to be at 2 RPPM), we assume Jade Spirit will have the same uptime as Windsong, in which case, the proc from Jade Spirit is clearly superior.

@Mrgreenthump - that felt like a really mean comment... also attacking a person's argument is fine, attacking the person making the argument is a general fallacy.
@stX3 - Ya, I'm actually doing the same thing:

- I do my normal Fireball -> queued IB to force the HS -> immediately pyro.
but
- When I'm on the combustion where I don't have AT I will:
Fireball -> queue IB to force the Pyro -> fireball fish for a HU -> Fireball with queued pyro -> PoM -> hopefully a HS pyro -> instant pyro (using up the PoM buff) -> Combust.
if I'm using my normal AT + PoM, then there's no point on fishing for a HU since I have a guaranteed 4 pyros.
- I know a lot of people feel like scorch is very important since it's the "go to move" for movement. I did too before I made the general switch to PoM, but on most fights when I looked at my logs, I ended up doing very few scorches... like Feng I thought had a lot of movement with arcane velocity and what not, but I only really ended up using 4-6 scorches in 8 minutes. Really other than Garalon (assuming you're going to be on pheromone rotation), Visor, and Sha, I really recommend PoM for everything else.
@namliam - Yes, if you do fireball-> instant pyro WITHOUT heating up, and one of them crits (but the other does not) it will eat up your HU. It's like the mirrored bad side of the altered rotation we were discussing. Since we were talking about fireball-> instant pyro with HS and HU, when you jumped in with fireball-> instant pyro with only HS and no HU, it seemed to cause confusion.

Mainly though, I have also noticed this interaction happen which is why I now do: Fireball -> IB -> immediately HS Pyro.
I no longer do Fireball -> IB -> Fireball -> queued HS Pyro.

[Deleted]

If you ONLY have a HS, then cast FB>!PB and your Fireball crits, the !Pyro will make the HU disappear

First you say I make no sence, then you turn around and say exactly the same thing...


It is a trade off though... Have HS and fish for HU during IB CD, offcourse... 70% chance of a free !PB, which is significantly better than the 45% you have of the next fireball (or any other single cast) critting
But should you keep fishing after the CD of IB?
By casting FB>!PB with only HS, you have a 25% chance to munch your HU, but guarantee a future HU to be promoted to HS by IB.
By keeping the HS and fishing for HU, you can then cast FB>!PB without fear of munching but you have a 30% chance of not procing HS.

if you compare the dps of Fireball to that of IB/Pyro, guess its not that great a deal in perticular since one time it can swing one way and other time another way.
However since IB/Pyro has higher dps than Fireball AND the fact that the IB forced Hot Streak has a lower chance of creating a dps loss (munching HU) I am inclined to say you should not keep fishing for HU once IB is about to come off cd.

If that is what you meant i apologize. Though from your comments it seemed like you had HS and HU confused with each other.


@Mr.Green your still hiding behind a forum name, and i still dont see what the WoL rankings, witch can be heavily manipulated, have anything to do with this theory craft discussion ?
the pure fact that if your raid in general does more dps than my raid would give you a higher dps'e also play a role, Use WoL to analyze your own performance, and not to compare two different raid groups, with properly 2 different tactics / duties.

[Deleted]

Mainly though, I have also noticed this interaction happen which is why I now do: Fireball -> IB -> immediately HS Pyro.
I no longer do Fireball -> IB -> Fireball -> queued HS Pyro.

That is a good way to avoid the whole issue of munching your HU, however, if you do proc a HU in the 2 fireballs after... You still lose out on that heating up.
Perhaps if your second chooses to crit maybe you could just squeeze out an IB to promote it to HS but with 8 second CD, do not think it will work.
Chances of either of those 2 fireballs critting is still 50% !

By casting FB>IB>!PB, you have a 50% chance to munch/lose your HU
By casting FB>!PB with only HS, you have a 25% chance to munch your HU, but guarantee a future HU to be promoted to HS by IB.
By keeping the HS and fishing for HU, you can then cast FB>!PB without fear of munching but you have a 30% chance of not procing HS.

Ultimately it still isnt gonna matter unless your rolling into Combustion I think, either way it is going to inscrease or decrease your dps by maybe 20k every 20 seconds or so (pure guess work), but certainly is not going to add 10k dps.
Unless you are trully min-maxing and get lucky you are always going to miss out (or risk) losing out on HU procs which ever of these ways you go.

[Deleted]

By casting FB>IB>!PB, you have a 50% chance to munch/lose your HU
By casting FB>!PB with only HS, you have a 25% chance to munch your HU, but guarantee a future HU to be promoted to HS by IB.
By keeping the HS and fishing for HU, you can then cast FB>!PB without fear of munching but you have a 30% chance of not procing HS.

Nr1. FB->IB->!pyro. You say we have 50% chance of munching HU? i dont understand why. If the FB crits we see it before casting the !pyro because of ICD after IB(remember 0.75 max travel time) and can change to Fb->!pyro because IB would give HS+HU.

Nr2 FB->!pyro with only HS. This is the reason i wrote that if you have any instant casts at this point you should use them before !pyro, to make sure you dont munch a possible HU. This is assuming IB is off ICD.

nr3. Remember that it still "free's" up IB to spread.


Any way i started this discussion because i felt not every mage was aware of how you could utilize the HS+HU and 0.5s cancel delay and it definitely have its place in fire mage theory crafting. I am glad Both the benefits but certainly also the downsides to its use have been brought out in the light. Witch was pretty much all i wanted.
How people choose to apply it ingame is their choice.