Thread: Fire Mage Guide

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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by kjelsrud View Post

    F.eks You got 25% critt. 25*1.5=37.5% critt. 37.5/100= 0.375. I.e use 0.325 instead of 0.4.
    Nope you forget that there is the -3% crit reduction which applies before the multiplier which means 25% crit is really (25-3)*1.5 making it 33% crit chance

  2. #22
    A small question concerning something not covered in your guide. Outside of spreading combustion, what is most likely the best thing fire mages can do in an AoE situation? After spreading LB, I found flamestrike is doing abysmal damage for me (~2k ticks at level 88) compared to blizzard (~4k ticks), but I'm just still not exactly sure what I should be doing or using for the most powerful AoEing in these situations.

  3. #23
    Too bad everything is about to change....

  4. #24
    Warchief Statix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Windry View Post
    Scenario 1: Alter Time and PoM
    - Fireball until you get a crit.
    - Inferno Blast queue that crit into a Pyroblast Buff.
    - Make sure Pyromaniac debuff (via mage bomb) is up.
    - Pop all trinkets/Synapse Spring buffs
    - Hit the Macro - At this point it will fire 1 pyroblast (using up the buff), you will have a PoM buff, and 6 seconds till Alter Time ends.
    - Hit Pyroblast - this will use up the PoM buff (sending out pyroblast 2)
    - Hit the Macro - This will preemptively end your Alter Time countdown and reset you to: Pyroblast buff and PoM buff and then it will fire insta pyroblast 3, consuming Pyroblast buff.
    - Hit Pyroblast for insta pyroblast 4 (consuming PoM buff for the 2nd time).
    - Hit Combust

    Scenario 2: PoM
    - Fireball until you get a crit.
    - Inferno blast queue that crit into a Pyroblast Buff.
    - Make sure Pyromaniac debuff (via mage bomb) is up.
    - Pop all trinkets/Synapse Spring buffs
    - Hardcast another Fireball
    - Queue Insta Pyroblast via Pyroblast Buff.
    - Double Tap the Macro to send out another insta Pyroblast
    - Hit Combust
    I just noticed this thread today and I completely forgot I could get Presence of Mind from talents. Started using the above combo's and I am loving it. However, according to the 5.1 patchnotes on the frontpage, these combo's are going to get nerfed. Of course, nothing is set in stone yet, but patch 5.1 will put a cooldown of 3 seconds on Pyroblast.

    So, no more Pyroblast! and a quick PoM Pyroblast after it. What purpose does Alter Time have if you cannot use it to fire two Pyroblasts quickly after eachother? Putting the combo's, Alter Time and Presence of Mind aside, if you cast Fireball + Pyroblast! and both crit, you won't be able to use your next Pyroblast! proc for another 1.5 seconds. So basically, getting two Pyroblast! procs in a row means from now on, we will always have to cast something in between. As often as this happens (oh wait, it rarely does!), when it finally does happen, we won't be able to do it anymore. Am I understanding this correctly? Because if I am, I fear this change will completely break Fire.

    This is such a ridiculous change. If Fire is doing too much damage, lower the damage on abilites. Don't put a cooldown on an ability that shouldn't have a cooldown. This is like putting a cooldown on Ice Lance or Frost Strike. Pyroblast is such an important part of the rotation of Fire Mages, a three second cooldown will simply break Fire.

    Didn't have much fun lately playing my Mage anymore. Starting to use PoM and the combo's made me love my Mage again. Reading that crap on the frontpage has ruined everything once again. I seriously hope that change is not going to be implemented.
    Last edited by Statix; 2012-10-18 at 05:41 PM.
    Statix will suffice.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by sahtila View Post
    Looks like start of good guide, some questions I got while reading it:


    Haste value for Goblin?
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...ZmFYa0E#gid=39
    2605 is the corresponding haste value to 3056


    Why its crucial? What if player is using reactionary way to use combustion? What if you want scorch to fish for procs, like in elegon adds.
    Yes, I meant it's crucial for the proactive method of combustion... maybe I'll try to reword it

    Why RoF for Elegon? Shatter for Energy Sparks? Tanks seems to have no troubles with Cosmic Sparks, so that is surely not reason?
    Yes, it is for Cosmic Sparks. My tanks are telling my group they hit incredibly hard, so we CC, kite them to death. Plus Shatter is nice. Even if you do a regular tank and spank on Cosmic Sparks, RoF is still a good spell in the emergency where a tank dies, where Frost Jaw and Ice Ward wouldn't be so helpful.

    Why not Living bomb+ Fireblast glyph for Stone Guardians? Checked 10 men wol listing some days ago and seemed every single top result was using Living Bomb. Though as difference is so small, guess its personal choice.

    Mrgreenthump answered this. In theory, if you constantly have 2 mobs (and only 2 mobs) tanked next to each other NT should be the best DPS. I do have to acknowledge that LB is showing up a lot on the meters. I'll try to recalculate it in a bit.

    Fireblast glyph with NT for single target? What it does?
    This is just my mistake. I believe it used to do an extra primary tick, and I never noticed when they changed it. Good catch. I will change the OP.

    Why is Troll rated so high, cant see how short 10sec burst haste with 3 min cd is _that_ good for fire? Is that from simcraft?
    Yes, basically, I just pulled it from simcraft results.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-18 at 11:14 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by otro View Post
    Too bad everything is about to change....
    Sigh... ya I woke up this morning, saw the changes in 5.1, wanted to cry. Mainly the 3 second CD to Pyroblast.
    Last edited by Windry; 2012-10-20 at 07:33 PM.

  6. #26
    Great guide, especially loving the macro for PoM pyro with AT. Obviously it will need a revision if the PTR changes go through (/wrist), but yea... And contrary to other posters, I think it's very good that you've been clear that there are differing opinions regarding crit vs intel.

    Bump for sticky!

  7. #27
    If only this was here 4 weeks ago would have saved me countless hours(days) of time researching / mathing my self ><. good work.

    Though personally i wont go for pom pyro, even though the option for a higher combust is there, in most fights i feel scorch more than enough makes up for it by providing damage every time you move even if just for 1gcd its damage lost if you just move and fireball. and over a 6-10min fight that can sum up to a lot of scorches. imo its fight dependant.

    any way Bump for sticky!

  8. #28
    nice guide...

    sticky plz

  9. #29
    Great guide. Gave me a few pointers on some things i was doing wrong with alter time. Sticky please

  10. #30
    Windry fisrt of all, nice guide, help me a lot swapping to fire.
    I've got a question, i'm using your PoM+Alter Time combo, but when i finish the 4º Pyro i only got a 20k or so Ignite, I think that is too low! Is it normal or what I'm doing wrong? (I'm trying on Dummy, no flask, no food and no raid buffs)
    Here is my armory: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Lukar/advanced
    thanks for everything
    Last edited by lordigor; 2012-10-21 at 12:51 PM.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by lordigor View Post
    Windry fisrt of all, nice guide, help me a lot swapping to fire.
    I've got a question, i'm using your PoM+Alter Time combo, but when i finish the 4º Pyro i only got a 20k or so Ignite, I think that is too low! Is it normal or what I'm doing wrong? (I'm trying on Dummy, no flask, no food and no raid buffs)
    Here is my armory: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Lukar/advanced
    thanks for everything
    First off, do you mean 20k Combustion ticks?

    I can't really tell just looking at your armory. My best guess is you're underestimating buffs/debuffs. If you just did it on a Dummy: Did you evocate? Did you have pyromaniac Debuff? Did you have Curse of Elements? Did you have your active trinkets/procs before you did your 4 pyros?

    I dunno, try it in a raid, and then link the logs.

  12. #32
    ok erase that last comment, in a raid enviroment i'm getting 55k-60k ignites! it's so cool xD
    I only have one question, when i do the alter time combo and i've refreshed the bomb before starting it, i get a 1s window with the 4º pyro flying to get the boss where i don't know what to do exactly! i mean, casting a FB will drop ignite, but standing doin nothing is bad too... What do you recomend?

  13. #33
    Great stuff, make this a sticky please.

  14. #34
    Hi,

    first of all nice guide. Thank you for that.

    But can u explain something to me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Windry View Post
    2.1.f) I recommend Invocation for all fights. Rune of Power comes out slightly to be the best DPS gain, however the restricted movement makes it mostly not viable. Gara'jal and Elegon are the only 2 fights you should even remotely consider using RoP. Obviously, Incanters ward is a tradeoff of DPS for survivability. As far as I know, there isn't really a fight that requires it right now.

    Invocation gains per cycle:
    45 seconds = 40*1.25 -> 50000% DPS/45 seconds =
    1.1111 DPS

    Rune of Power gains per cycle:
    60 seconds = 58.5*1.15 -> 67275% DPS/60 seconds =
    1.12125 DPS
    How did u get this? My calculation was:
    (All without Haste)

    Rune: 60 sec Bufftime, 1.5 sec Recast, 15% more DMG.
    So we have
    60/(60+1.5)*15%=14.63% more DMG overall.

    Ward: 15 sec Bufftime, 1.5 sec Recast, 25 sec CD, 30% more DMG.
    15/(25+1.5)*30%=16.98% more DMG overall.

    Invocation: 40 sec Bufftime, 6 sec Recast, 25% more DMG
    40/(40+6)*25%=21.73% more DMG overall.

    Tell me why i'm wrong.

  15. #35
    Warchief Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomathan View Post
    Tell me why i'm wrong.
    You're taking cast times as 100% damage when it's 0%.

  16. #36
    I've been curious about the Windsong vs Jade Spirit issue. Last night, the first of our enchanter guildies hit revered, and Sunday night raid was the first chance I got to personally see it in action.

    By Design (or in theory):
    Jade Spirit: 1650 Int ~ 12 seconds ~ 50 second ICD ~ 10% chance to proc ------> We should then expect 1 proc every 55 seconds or so for 21.82% up-time, which matched our logs. (Our DPS with Jade Spirit had 20% uptime on the buff).
    This leads to a simple: 1650*12/55 = 360 Int

    Windsong: By Blizzard's explanation: we should see: 1500 (random 2ndary stat) ~ 12 seconds ~ 2 PPM ------> we should then expect 40% up-time.
    This should lead to: 1500*12*2/60 = 600 secondary.

    First, the spell rolls to check if Windsong Procs, then it will give you one of the random 3. Crit, mastery, haste should all have equal chances within these 3.
    Thus, with enough iterations to stamp out RNG, it *SHOULD* be a static: 200 Crit, 200 Haste, 200 Mastery.

    Now, using my stat weights of:
    4.14 Int
    2.97 Hit
    2.27 Crit
    1.95 Haste
    1.59 Mastery
    I *should* be looking at:

    Jade Spirit: 4.14*360 = 1490
    Windsong: 2.27(200) + 1.95(200) + 1.59(200) = 1162

    Here, you should note that at 256 of each static secondary (769 total static secondary) or 51.29% uptime, Windsong would equal the value of Jade Spirit.


    However, Daxx has said:
    "Here are even more nitty gritty details, if you’re interested:

    It can proc from any damage/healing event.
    It keeps track of the last time it had a chance to proc for that enchant.
    It calculates the difference in time since the last chance to proc.
    It uses that time to determine the chance for that event to trigger a proc.
    For example, if you have 22% Haste, it was 1.4sec since the last chance to proc, and you’ve got Windsong, then the chance to proc is 2(ppm) * 1.22(haste) * 1.4(time since last chance) / 60 (sec per min) = 5.693%.
    The ‘time since the last chance to proc’ is capped at 10sec, so that your first attack of a fight isn’t a guaranteed proc."


    What this means is (with 12.5% haste raid buffed)
    3.75% chance to proc every second on ANYTHING
    7.5% chance to proc once every 2 seconds on ANYTHING
    11.25% chance to proc once every 3 seconds on ANYTHING
    15% chance to proc within 4 seconds
    18.75% chance to proc within 5 seconds
    22.5% chance to proc within 6 seconds
    26.25% chance to proc within 7 seconds
    30% chance to proc within 8 seconds
    33.75% chance to proc within 9 seconds
    37.5% chance to proc within 10 seconds (which is the max; anything past 10 seconds would have this same chance)

    The problem is Blizzard is underestimating how many times we get to roll. Here's a sample of 10 seconds of my DPS:
    [22:06:00.206] Windrie Nether Tempest Gara'jal the Spiritbinder 6901
    [22:06:00.593] Windrie Ignite Gara'jal the Spiritbinder 10417
    [22:06:00.593] Windrie Pyroblast Gara'jal the Spiritbinder 15561
    [22:06:00.593] Windrie Fireball Gara'jal the Spiritbinder 64745
    [22:06:00.836] Windrie Nether Tempest Gara'jal the Spiritbinder 6901
    [22:06:01.534] Windrie Nether Tempest Gara'jal the Spiritbinder *17059*
    [22:06:02.031] Windrie Fireball Gara'jal the Spiritbinder *205245*
    [22:06:02.225] Windrie Nether Tempest Gara'jal the Spiritbinder 7246
    [22:06:02.459] Windrie Ignite Gara'jal the Spiritbinder 9469
    [22:06:02.539] Windrie Stormlash Gara'jal the Spiritbinder 26020
    [22:06:02.998] Windrie Nether Tempest Gara'jal the Spiritbinder 7246
    [22:06:03.125] Windrie Pyroblast Gara'jal the Spiritbinder *40391*
    [22:06:03.529] Windrie Nether Tempest Gara'jal the Spiritbinder *17912*
    [22:06:03.597] Windrie Fireball Gara'jal the Spiritbinder *216731*
    [22:06:03.797] Windrie Inferno Blast Gara'jal the Spiritbinder *86628*
    [22:06:04.121] Windrie Stormlash Gara'jal the Spiritbinder 23957
    [22:06:04.271] Windrie Nether Tempest Gara'jal the Spiritbinder 7246
    [22:06:04.434] Windrie Ignite Gara'jal the Spiritbinder 45402
    [22:06:04.496] Windrie Stormlash Gara'jal the Spiritbinder 15126
    [22:06:04.997] Windrie Nether Tempest Gara'jal the Spiritbinder 7246
    [22:06:05.572] Windrie Nether Tempest Gara'jal the Spiritbinder 7246
    [22:06:05.881] Windrie Pyroblast Gara'jal the Spiritbinder 16339
    [22:06:05.884] Windrie Pyroblast Gara'jal the Spiritbinder *449047*
    [22:06:06.300] Windrie Nether Tempest Gara'jal the Spiritbinder *17912*
    [22:06:06.464] Windrie Ignite Gara'jal the Spiritbinder 38293
    [22:06:06.530] Windrie Stormlash Gara'jal the Spiritbinder 17955
    [22:06:06.965] Windrie Pyroblast Gara'jal the Spiritbinder 181595
    [22:06:06.976] Windrie Nether Tempest Gara'jal the Spiritbinder 7246
    [22:06:07.636] Windrie Nether Tempest Gara'jal the Spiritbinder 7246
    [22:06:07.694] Windrie Stormlash Gara'jal the Spiritbinder 18772
    [22:06:07.956] Windrie Pyroblast Gara'jal the Spiritbinder 126939
    [22:06:08.349] Windrie Nether Tempest Gara'jal the Spiritbinder 7246
    [22:06:08.447] Windrie Ignite Gara'jal the Spiritbinder 83947
    [22:06:08.447] Windrie Pyroblast Gara'jal the Spiritbinder 29782
    [22:06:08.520] Windrie Stormlash Gara'jal the Spiritbinder *95599*
    [22:06:09.020] Windrie Nether Tempest Gara'jal the Spiritbinder *14927*
    [22:06:09.240] Windrie Pyroblast Gara'jal the Spiritbinder 181884
    [22:06:09.722] Windrie Stormlash Gara'jal the Spiritbinder *31696*
    [22:06:09.801] Windrie Nether Tempest Gara'jal the Spiritbinder *14927*
    [22:06:10.143] Windrie Combustion Gara'jal the Spiritbinder *248061*
    [22:06:10.197] Windrie's Windsong fades from Windrie
    [22:06:10.205] Windrie Pyroblast Gara'jal the Spiritbinder *61352*
    [22:06:10.385] Windrie Nether Tempest Gara'jal the Spiritbinder 7246
    [22:06:10.486] Windrie Ignite Gara'jal the Spiritbinder 84572
    [22:06:10.913] Windrie Stormlash Gara'jal the Spiritbinder *40212*

    With 44 chances to roll every 10 seconds, how can they expect us to not have a ridiculous # of procs?

    Here're the actual number of procs we saw in a 6 minute fight:
    - Resto Shaman (keeping healing rain down all the time): 45 procs (150% uptime, yes that means she ALWAYS had 1 of the 3 buffs up, and half the time she had 2 of the 3 buffs up)
    - Aff Warlock 1: 38 procs (126% uptime -> 630 crit, 630 haste, 630 mastery)
    - Me: 21 procs (70% uptime -> 350 crit, 350 haste, 350 mastery) (Jade Spirit: 1490
    Windsong: 2033.5)
    - Boomkin 1: 18 procs (60% uptime -> 300 crit, 300 haste, 300 mastery)
    - Feral: 16 procs (53% uptime -> 265 crit, 265 haste, 265 mastery)

    So, it becomes obvious that when using DoTs, the ability to get a massive # of rolls makes Windsong better than Jade Serpent.

    TLDR; USE WINDSONG for Fire.... (Frost is going to be better with Jade Serpent, as they value int much more, and they don't have the DoTs to lead into ridiculous # of rolls).
    Last edited by Windry; 2012-10-22 at 10:04 AM.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuni Zyrekai View Post
    You're taking cast times as 100% damage when it's 0%.
    Tell me stupid but i dont know what u mean.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomathan View Post
    Tell me why i'm wrong.
    You are wrong for multiplying by 15% and 25%. You should be multiplying by 115% and 125%, because you're not doing 15% damage for 1 minute, you're doing 115% damage for 1 minute. You then compare that vs doing 100% damage for 1 minute.

    However, you are right with the 60/(60+1.5). Just as you let Invocation drop, you should wait till RoP is over, then recast it. I will update the OP.

  19. #39
    Now i've got it. Thank you. As i said: stupid me.
    *head->table*

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Windry View Post
    With 44 chances to roll every 10 seconds, how can they expect us to not have a ridiculous # of procs?
    44 chances that should be at 0,8% procchance each. You'd have a ~1% lower chance of getting a proc in a 10 second window than you would have at 1 chance every 3 seconds, and 6% lower than at the start of the fight(i.e. 10s cap).(Yes, it gets worse as your events per timeframe increase)

    You forgot that the chance to proc per event goes down as the number of events increases. What you're describing seems more like a bug in the system that causes the proc chance to not get calculated properly for DoTs. Or maybe it only counts events for a single target, leading to higher proc rates on AoE and multidotting(which would easily explain the Shaman).

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