[Music] Metal vs Psy

[Deleted]

I agree that uneXpect could be considered avant-garde.

It is. I gave you a list of exceptional songs from things I listen to. Songs that incorporate a multitude of styles and influences. I did not specifically go for the 'first of their kind'. There is a lot of variation in metal even within sub-genres.

While you could for example argue that a band like Machinae Supremacy was probably the first band to incorporate a chiptune-like sound in metal, it most certainly was not the first one utilizing synthesizers.

Not what I was trying to do. Just gave a list of songs I consider brilliant and innovative.

I'd say the exact same thing to someone limiting themselves to rock. Metal is a fraction of all the music that you could be listening to. There's so many wonderful works of art that you're potentially missing. There might be many wonderful works of art other people are missing because they're dismissing metal.

I don't, by the way, limit myself just to metal. I also listen to Orchestral Scores and snippets from Electronic music and other genres. 95% of my music is metal and is entirely for the energy, melody and 'wall of sound' styles found in it. I could certainly get by though just with Metal. There's enough bands in it to keep me happy.

Don't get me wrong, I love metal. Without bands like Swans, Neurosis, Sunn O))), Boris, Bathory and Kyuss there'd be so many genres and so many albums I would never have enjoyed. The issue I have is that people who limit themselves to metal (metal-heads, if you will) tend to dismiss mostly anything that doesn't have distorted guitars (this is just my experience from having discussed music on text boards, forums, irc-channels and via instant messaging programs daily for years).

I'll wager some metal-heads become elitist due to the general perception of metal by the public. In this thread alone you've had a few instances of people just sneering at its musical value (your initial comments came across as that) and you have others who just insist it is all screaming or some other such shit.

An old friend of mine got me into black metal and drone. I got him into more or less experimental electronic music: Tim Hecker, Oneohtrix Point Never, Tricky, Brian Eno, Burial, Autechre, James Blake, Aphex Twin, Shed, dgoHn, etc. It doesn't have to be us versus them; nobody wins, and everyone looks like self-righteous pricks. If you really wanted to find avant-garde music that actually pushes limits, you would be listening to abrasive noise or future jazz, and a lot of electronic music - not symphonic metal.

That's not why I listen to metal.

What I'm saying is branch out! Go listen to shoegaze! Dub-techno! Neo-folk! Instrumental trip-hop! Dark ambient! Post-punk! Noise-pop! Garage rock! IDM! Nu-disco! Hell, go listen to experimental ambient noise with Boris and Merzbow for over an hour! My point is essentially: you're missing out when listening only to metal. You're not Hitler.

I never said I do only listen to Metal. I was pointing out that people who do shouldn't be lectured for preferring just that.

Btw: Ambience is extremely uninteresting to me.

[Badpaladin]

I'll wager some metal-heads become elitist due to the general perception of metal by the public. In this thread alone you've had a few instances of people just sneering at its musical value (your initial comments came across as that) and you have others who just insist it is all screaming or some other such shit.

Metalheads are, in my experience, the absolute worst fans of any particular genre. They are easily the most easily offended, they're the most picky about what's "metal" and what's not, and they have this ridiculous bravado about it being the best genre of music. Maybe it's because the close thematic ties with a lot of classical music attracts more melodramatic people, or even specific popular subgenres are entirely about melodrama, but it's something I've noticed throughout the years.

Most significantly, though, is most of these types of Metalheads will typically stick to just a few subgenres. A lot of stuff that pushes boundaries, like bands that incorporate elements of shoegaze and dream pop, or neofolk, sampling and post-rock, or hardcore and noisecore almost immediately gets pushed aside because it's not centered around some melodramatic approach to creating music. I haven't found that attitude nearly as prevailing in other genres' camps, mainly because many of those genres already incorporate so many different approaches to music (Electronic Music and Hip-Hop being some of the most "open").

That's why you see so many memes like the one posted by the OP. Metalheads are far too easily offended and melodramatic about things, really.

[Stormcall]

If it's going to turn into a game of who has the most subgenres, the Electronic Music is going to win, hands-down. It's not even close, actually. It's also pretty unreal just how many different styles have emerged from that, let alone the blending of more "traditional" styles of music. Metal has nothing on Electronic Music when it comes to variety.

Traditional/classic, power, speed, thrash, prog, doom, death, black, folk, metalcore, nu-metal/rap metal, gothic, avant garde as overarching metal genres(some people put industrial here as well, some consider industrial it's own genre rather than a metal genre) then you have all the numerous hybrids and subgenres-tech death, melodic death, doom-death, tech thrash, symphonic power, symphonic black, blackened death, power-thrash, and the list goes on...to retarded levels, in some cases(I do not count "viking metal" as it's own subgenre, some people do).

[Deleted]

Traditional/classic, power, speed, thrash, prog, doom, death, black, folk, metalcore, nu-metal/rap metal, gothic, avant garde as overarching metal genres(some people put industrial here as well, some consider industrial it's own genre rather than a metal genre) then you have all the numerous hybrids and subgenres-tech death, melodic death, doom-death, tech thrash, symphonic power, symphonic black, blackened death, power-thrash, and the list goes on...to retarded levels, in some cases(I do not count "viking metal" as it's own subgenre, some people do).

Yeah, but have you seen a list of electronic music subgenres, it's incredibly long.

Btw, Viking Metal is a subgenre of metal. More specifically it's a subgenre of black metal that traditionally combines the repetitious riffs, atmosphere and vocals of 2nd wave BM with some features of Folk Metal such as folk instruments, clean vocals, and keyboards. Bands like Falkenbach and Thyrfing are good examples of this subgenre, where else Amon Amarth, which is often mistaken to be part of it, is not.

[Stormcall]

Yeah, but have you seen a list of electronic music subgenres, it's incredibly long.

Btw, Viking Metal is a subgenre of metal. More specifically it's a subgenre of black metal that traditionally combines the repetitious riffs, atmosphere and vocals of 2nd wave BM with some features of Folk Metal such as folk instruments, clean vocals, and keyboards.

Except other bands do that EXACT SAME THING and are not called "viking metal", cause they don't sing about vikings. In other words, it's not a damn genre, it's a lyrical topic.

[Ineko]

I didn't read it because I'm lazy.....

But I think this thread can be solved with two words.

Personal. Opinion.

/thread

[koontakent]

"Fuck it i'll say it. Metal is a superior form of music to pop. If Beethoven was alive today, he'd much sooner be at Soundwave than at Future music. I will bet all the money in the world on that, and if he is ever revived, you can pay me then. The day pop does an 11/8 time signature i'll shit gold bars. Metal pushes music to new places. Pop is copy and paste."

Yeah I think you might be wrong on that one buddy. I don't think Beethoven would listen to any music. He just doesn't seem like the kind of guy to listen to music to me.

You're also wrong saying metal > pop. Whilst music might come down to personal choice, if you reallllllly have to be that way and say one is better than another then you can look at the 500,000,000 views Psy has had in like 5 months then tell me how long it has taken the whole combined genre that is metal to hit 500,000,000 views.

[Deleted]

Except other bands do that EXACT SAME THING and are not called "viking metal", cause they don't sing about vikings. In other words, it's not a damn genre, it's a lyrical topic.

Nope.

It got its name because most bands in the genre sing about vikings. If a band that is essentially fast paced, "galloping" BM with a strong emphasis on rhythm and being bombastic than normal BM as well as having folk elements, even if they sing about My Little Pony, it is viking metal.

You're also wrong saying metal > pop. Whilst music might come down to personal choice, if you reallllllly have to be that way and say one is better than another then you can look at the 500,000,000 views Psy has had in like 5 months then tell me how long it has taken the whole combined genre that is metal to hit 500,000,000 views.

I don't necessarily agree with OP but there is no correlation between popularity and quality.

[Deleted]

Yeah I think you might be wrong on that one buddy. I don't think Beethoven would listen to any music. He just doesn't seem like the kind of guy to listen to music to me.

You're also wrong saying metal > pop. Whilst music might come down to personal choice, if you reallllllly have to be that way and say one is better than another then you can look at the 500,000,000 views Psy has had in like 5 months then tell me how long it has taken the whole combined genre that is metal to hit 500,000,000 views.

Popularity implies accessibility and advertisement, actually. Often things in the bestselling sections are the things that appeal to the most average person.

In fact, popularity implies a certain amount of degradation of quality.

[koontakent]

Nope.

It got its name because most bands in the genre sing about vikings. If a band that is essentially fast paced, "galloping" BM with a strong emphasis on rhythm and being bombastic than normal BM as well as having folk elements, even if they sing about My Little Pony, it is viking metal.



I don't necessarily agree with OP but there is no correlation between popularity and quality.

Don't know how to tell you think but I think there may be a slight correlation between popularity and quality.

---------- Post added 2012-10-19 at 10:43 PM ----------

Popularity implies accessibility and advertisement, actually. Often things in the bestselling sections are the things that appeal to the most average person.

In fact, popularity implies a certain amount of degradation of quality.

Please do inform me how popularity implies a certain amount of degradation of quality, because I do not know

[Deleted]

Don't know how to tell you think but I think there may be a slight correlation between popularity and quality.

---------- Post added 2012-10-19 at 10:43 PM ----------



Please do inform me how popularity implies a certain amount of degradation of quality, because I do not know

This all often depends largely on your targeted consumer base but to be popular, to make a lot of sales it has to be accessible for as many people as possible. Most people targeted in this context aren't what you'd call people otherwise particularly interested or aware about a lot of music. They hear what is on the radio and what their friends listen to and buy it. They aren't exactly cultured in music (this too is also true for books, video games, movies to a certain extent) and thus stuff designed with simplicity and family-friendly catchiness is what is going to appeal to them. Nothing too progressive, avant-garde, complex, long, heavy, guttural has any radio performance and chart-topping value.

It is why artists like Bieber and One Direction have so much success.

[conscript]

At least Psy isn't screaming at me and changing between high pitched screaming and low pitch growling constantly. Metal is amazing musically, freaking terrible vocally in most cases.

[Deleted]

At least Psy isn't screaming at me and changing between high pitched screaming and low pitch growling constantly. Metal is amazing musically, freaking terrible vocally in most cases.

You mean extreme metal.

Petty correction, yes - but only about half of metal constitutes screaming/growling as a necessity.

[koontakent]

This all often depends largely on your targeted consumer base but to be popular, to make a lot of sales it has to be accessible for as many people as possible. Most people targeted in this context aren't what you'd call people otherwise particularly interested or aware about a lot of music. They hear what is on the radio and what their friends listen to and buy it. They aren't exactly cultured in music (this too is also true for books, video games, movies to a certain extent) and thus stuff designed with simplicity and family-friendly catchiness is what is going to appeal to them. Nothing too progressive, avant-garde, complex, long, heavy, guttural has any radio performance and chart-topping value.

It is why artists like Bieber and One Direction have so much success.

This is what I call the blue cheese factor. I work with all types of cheese all day, every damn type. Blue cheese is gross. I hate it and some people like it, I think they're whack jobs because they tend to take this blue cheese seriously and tell me how fantastic it is all the time (it's not because it is gross). By now you have noticed I think blue cheese is disgusting, but I can tell you almost everything about them because I've had to eat them all but it just isnt my thing.

Metal music is blue cheese, whilst blue cheese might be based on taste metal is based on hearing. Some people like it and other people think it is disgusting. This doesn't make me "not exactly cultured" because I don't like both of those things I don't like them because they don't appeal to me and forcing myself to taste and or listen to it is not going to change my mind because I already know what I like.

Blue cheese is disgusting because it taste like mold and smells like dirty socks and dead animals. Metal music is bad because I don't like listening to antisocial themed music a lot of cases (Don't worry I also hate listening to songs about going to the club and hooking up with shawty) it sounds like people are trying to play what ever they are playing so hard that it breaks and I hate listening to kids scream because they can't get a lolly, why would I want to listen to a fully grown man dressed like he is going to kill or is a vampire scream about how his heart got broken by some bimbo that broke up with him?

This is just a personal opinion though, in my mind it is right and in your mind it will be wrong, whilst more people would agree with me they would also call me an idiot because I don't like tomato sauce.

Also listening to metal music does not mean you know music better than other people and it does not have some extra properties to make it more special. When you talk like that you sound like some one telling me how fantastic all these bad tasting foods are because they think they know better because they eat blue cheeses.

[Deleted]

This is what I call the blue cheese factor. I work with all types of cheese all day, every damn type. Blue cheese is gross. I hate it and some people like it, I think they're whack jobs because they tend to take this blue cheese seriously and tell me how fantastic it is all the time (it's not because it is gross). By now you have noticed I think blue cheese is disgusting, but I can tell you almost everything about them because I've had to eat them all but it just isnt my thing.

I am not sure this is directly comparable to Metal. Blue cheese just has a different taste. It certainly is less accessible than regular cheese just like metal to regular music, and like metal it is 'extreme' enough to require some specific type of person to like it immediately (like mainstream things like marmite or prunes). Though worth pointing out that the 'best' food eaten by connoisseurs isn't amongst the bestselling stuff (mostly due to expense and inaccessibility).

Metal music is blue cheese, whilst blue cheese might be based on taste metal is based on hearing. Some people like it and other people think it is disgusting. This doesn't make me "not exactly cultured" because I don't like both of those things I don't like them because they don't appeal to me and forcing myself to taste and or listen to it is not going to change my mind because I already know what I like.

I never said disliking metal diminishes your cultural standing in anything. I said that someone who solely consumes top-40 hits regularly and radio music is very likely not informed on music beyond that. That major consumer-base (effectively people who would not otherwise listen to music) cause simplistic, mundane and catchy music to massive popularity and thus give the impression of quality yet in order to appeal to those very people it must be simplistic.

Blue cheese is disgusting because it taste like mold and smells like dirty socks and dead animals. Metal music is bad because I don't like listening to antisocial themed music a lot of cases (Don't worry I also hate listening to songs about going to the club and hooking up with shawty)

See here you display your ignorance. You're free not to like metal, or be disinterested in it and that's fine but when you describe it as "antisocial" you demonstrate you don't know much about the different types.

it sounds like people are trying to play what ever they are playing so hard that it breaks and I hate listening to kids scream because they can't get a lolly,

Again. Screaming in metal is confined to specific subgenres. The lyrical content of those subgenres also rarely has anything to do with "because they can't get a lolly". It sounds like you are conflating all screaming/growling in metal with some regular post-hardcore/metalcore stuff (which contrary to popular opinion as well often tends to be optimistic rather than whiny).

why would I want to listen to a fully grown man dressed like he is going to kill or is a vampire scream about how his heart got broken by some bimbo that broke up with him?

Not all Metal is about that. In fact a "fully grown man dressed like he is going to kill" describes probably the imagery of Black Metal. The "vampire scream about how his heart got broken" is also rare.

This is just a personal opinion though, in my mind it is right and in your mind it will be wrong, whilst more people would agree with me they would also call me an idiot because I don't like tomato sauce.

Your opinion on this is objectively wrong. You describe all Metal as being that when it isn't. Not even close.

Also listening to metal music does not mean you know music better than other people and it does not have some extra properties to make it more special.

No, it doesn't. It means though I know music better than people who listen to chart topping pop music only.

When you talk like that you sound like some one telling me how fantastic all these bad tasting foods are because they think they know better because they eat blue cheeses.

But, as you clearly demonstrated above - relating this analogy to metal you haven't actually tried blue cheese. Or you're assuming that all metal is like the blue cheese you dislike.

[koontakent]

All blue cheese tastes bad to me, all metal music sounds the same to me. Both bad. I'm educated in cheese so I can tell them apart but I still hate it

As you see I have no idea what I'm talking about, just like most other people that don't listen to metal music I think it's all about negative things because that is the stigma attached to it, which you can't blame me for thinking with some of the titles of the songs and the band names.

If you ever wanted to know why people don't like metal music this is why, ignorance in bliss. I don't know and I don't care. I don't like it so why should I give a damn. But that isn't just me - most people are ignorant idiots just like me that don't care.

All you metal heads only have your die hard fans to blame though, they carry on about metal music like its amazing and we're all idiots for not seeing things the same was as you, just like we all think you're drop kick psychopaths because you think a bad called suicide silence or some crap is awesome.

but to sum it up ITT people being ignorant about things and stereotyping somewhat, so I think we're all just going to have to agree to like things that we like and that Psy is better than any metal band on the planet or we're all idiots for thinking that tripe is better than the real art which is metal. Which Beethoven would listen to over pop music.

[Deleted]

All blue cheese tastes bad to me, all metal music sounds the same to me. Both bad. I'm educated in cheese so I can tell them apart but I still hate it

How much metal music have you listened to to assume that it is like all "blue cheese". From where I'm standing you're just assuming that all metal music is "blue cheese".

As you see I have no idea what I'm talking about, just like most other people that don't listen to metal music I think it's all about negative things because that is the stigma attached to it, which you can't blame me for thinking with some of the titles of the songs and the band names.

You appear to take pride in your ignorance. Yes, Metal has a bad and incorrect stigma amongst the general public. You just referenced that then go on to continue doing it.

If you ever wanted to know why people don't like metal music this is why, ignorance in bliss. I don't know and I don't care. I don't like it so why should I give a damn. But that isn't just me - most people are ignorant idiots just like me that don't care.

You're welcome to your ignorance and disinterest but don't then start making comments about metal music.

All you metal heads only have your die hard fans to blame though, they carry on about metal music like its amazing and we're all idiots for not seeing things the same was as you, just like we all think you're drop kick psychopaths because you think a bad called suicide silence or some crap is awesome.

Protip: If you were actually talking to metalhead elitists. They wouldn't be recommending Suicide Silence.

but to sum it up ITT people being ignorant about things and stereotyping somewhat, so I think we're all just going to have to agree to like things that we like and that Psy is better than any metal band on the planet or we're all idiots for thinking that tripe is better than the real art which is metal. Which Beethoven would listen to over pop music.

I never said you couldn't like things you that you like. You have though massive misinformation on metal but despite being aware of it parade it about as if it is a badge of honour.

[Stormcall]

Nope.

It got its name because most bands in the genre sing about vikings. If a band that is essentially fast paced, "galloping" BM with a strong emphasis on rhythm and being bombastic than normal BM as well as having folk elements, even if they sing about My Little Pony, it is viking metal..

It got its name SOLELY because they sing about vikings. If they're not singing about vikings, NOBODY(other than you, apparently) will call them viking metal, period, end of story. You can claim otherwise if you like, and you can claim the sun is actually a giant ball of cotton candy, and you will be equally correct on both subjects.

---------- Post added 2012-10-19 at 08:18 AM ----------

At least Psy isn't screaming at me and changing between high pitched screaming and low pitch growling constantly.

Off the top of my head and without even having to stop and think about it I can a couple hundred metal bands that DOESN'T apply to, in any way, shape, or form.

[koontakent]

How much metal music have you listened to to assume that it is like all "blue cheese". From where I'm standing you're just assuming that all metal music is "blue cheese".


You appear to take pride in your ignorance. Yes, Metal has a bad and incorrect stigma amongst the general public. You just referenced that then go on to continue doing it.


You're welcome to your ignorance and disinterest but don't then start making comments about metal music.


Protip: If you were actually talking to metalhead elitists. They wouldn't be recommending Suicide Silence.


I never said you couldn't like things you that you like. You have though massive misinformation on metal but despite being aware of it parade it about as if it is a badge of honour.

I think you're missing the point of what I'm saying. If people aren't interested in something like metal music and no effort is made to understand it we are still going to have an opinion of it, no matter how wrong or right it might be. You're just going to have to deal with ignorant people like me not liking it and making poor judgement due to lack of understanding. Just being that guy on the other side of the fence telling you how the rest of the people on my side see it and why you shouldn't bother even trying to talk to us idiots about it.

[Deleted]

I think you're missing the point of what I'm saying. If people aren't interested in something like metal music and no effort is made to understand it we are still going to have an opinion of it, no matter how wrong or right it might be. You're just going to have to deal with ignorant people like me not liking it and making poor judgement due to lack of understanding.

I'm happy to deal with that. Though you're now aware of your poor judgement: So why not just say "I don't know enough about metal to comment, but am not really interested in it".

Just being that guy on the other side of the fence telling you how the rest of the people on my side see it and why you shouldn't bother even trying to talk to us idiots about it.

Not sure why you're proud of your ignorance.