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  1. #61
    I'm glad you're aware of which abilities are too strong for how readily available they are, it's a shame whoever is designing warriors thought that it didn't matter.

    "Hey, lets have an AoE stun which costs no resources!"

    "Hey, lets have an AoE fear which costs no resources!"

    "Hey, lets have an AoE reflect which costs no resources!"

    "Hey, lets have a blanket silence on pummel that costs no resources!"

    "Hey, lets have silence attached to a low cooldown ranged attack that costs no resources!"

    "Hey, lets have a plethora of gap closers that massively outnumber the amount of escape mechanisms other classes bring to the table that cost no resources!"

    I think you get the point! (By no resources, I mean no meaningful choices need to be made to execute such abilities).
    Magnificence personified

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
    Pheonixis and Pokeadott - you guys continuously rally for these things:

    * Uncounterable (no counter play)
    * Untelegraphed (instant cast)
    * Free (no resource cost)

    These three things are actually hallmarks of poorly designed abilities or abilities which are trumping other ones. In general, abilities with these three qualities need to be:

    * Weak
    * Require Setup
    * Limited in Quantity

    My examples of problematic abilities in this space are:

    * Hammer of Justice - Free, 1 min cooldown ranged 5 sec stun.
    *** This was *the* paladin CC. Paladins then bitched they didn't have every other tool in the shed. Players fighting paladins in classic were constantly frustrated due to this ability.
    * Deep Freeze - short cooldown, 5 sec stun, requires frozen target.
    *** This was introduced and just a better version of HoJ. Totally lame.
    * Thunderstorm - PBAE, Instant Knockback
    *** This gave an instant AoE space builder, which shamans needed
    * Typhoon - Cone AoE Knockback
    *** This gave an already mobile spec an even more power space closer

    * Arcane Missiles - channeled rapid fire nuke
    *** This spell was a clear, well telegraphed shitload of damage, which could be stopped.
    * Arcane Blast
    *** This stacking damage spell doesn't have a missile and makes it very difficult to locate the caster in BGs. Consequentially, it became a spell with heavy ramp-up.

    My favorite examples of where the mechanic *could* be telegraphed but isn't:

    * Kidney Shot / Eviscerate

    These abilities actually require ramp-up and preparation, but because you don't see the # of combo points the rogue is building up on you, you can't see the attack is coming. In fact, this lack of visibility on abilities plagues rogue and warrior abilities.

    Your take is totally valid.

    Except those abilities you dislike are already here and aren't going away. So, you need to give Warriors a thousand charges, rets perma freedom+sprint, DKs unslowable, etc. If you nerfed the problematic CCs and gap closers, I'd be fine with our toolkit.

    There's also a difference between counterable and unusable. 4 seconds is WAY over the top for anything in pvp (see: Gateway). I will gladly take a weaker version of the spell (why do i need AoE stun+knockback+deathimmunity anyway?) if it means I can reliably use it. I am not asking for anything crazy OP - hell, all I want is a med CD single target root or disorient or knockback. No one ever said 'Gimme an instant 5 sec AoE stunback!', we just asked for something that allowed us to cast spells on a target.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
    Pheonixis and Pokeadott - you guys continuously rally for these things:

    * Uncounterable (no counter play)
    * Untelegraphed (instant cast)
    * Free (no resource cost)

    These three things are actually hallmarks of poorly designed abilities or abilities which are trumping other ones. In general, abilities with these three qualities need to be:

    * Weak
    * Require Setup
    * Limited in Quantity

    My examples of problematic abilities in this space are:

    * Hammer of Justice - Free, 1 min cooldown ranged 5 sec stun.
    *** This was *the* paladin CC. Paladins then bitched they didn't have every other tool in the shed. Players fighting paladins in classic were constantly frustrated due to this ability.
    * Deep Freeze - short cooldown, 5 sec stun, requires frozen target.
    *** This was introduced and just a better version of HoJ. Totally lame.
    * Thunderstorm - PBAE, Instant Knockback
    *** This gave an instant AoE space builder, which shamans needed
    * Typhoon - Cone AoE Knockback
    *** This gave an already mobile spec an even more power space closer

    * Arcane Missiles - channeled rapid fire nuke
    *** This spell was a clear, well telegraphed shitload of damage, which could be stopped.
    * Arcane Blast
    *** This stacking damage spell doesn't have a missile and makes it very difficult to locate the caster in BGs. Consequentially, it became a spell with heavy ramp-up.

    My favorite examples of where the mechanic *could* be telegraphed but isn't:

    * Kidney Shot / Eviscerate

    These abilities actually require ramp-up and preparation, but because you don't see the # of combo points the rogue is building up on you, you can't see the attack is coming. In fact, this lack of visibility on abilities plagues rogue and warrior abilities.
    very logical indeed, I could also add shockwave : aoe stun , low cd , deals dmg, no cost .
    But your logical is only viable if all the things you've stated are getting changed , since they most probably aren't ( or maybe nerfed later on), I do not see why that rule should apply to us and only us .

    Furthermore, I have yet to see what your take on cataclysm is, what did you design it for? gap opener or oh shit button ? because it is leaning towards the latter atm, the point of having a stun is so we could cast while the target is stunned , it's true that if I can land cataclysm's stun 1 or more targets it will give me cast window, but isn't it too avoidable the way it is? if let's say I wanted to use it for stunning someone and not to survive, the moment they see me cast it the natural reaction would be to move away ( unless they're oblivious to what it does, but that's besides the point ),if they move away it's waste on nothing, unless I land the stun on something it's pointless , yet I'm still unaware of how it works, if the people who are originally affected by the immolate at the start of the cast move outside it's radius do they still get affected by the stun afterwards? because that would move it miles towards it's intended purpose, additionally I would love to know whether the knockback/stun are physical or magical and whether they apply to other stun DRs.

    Because if the knockback / stun still applies to the people who were originally affected by the immolate at the very start AND the stun/knockback is physical on a different DR ( means that if a DK uses his shell and stays inside the blast radius he will still be affected instead of having the immunity which totally nullifies it),then I will take my hat off for you sir.
    Last edited by wholol; 2012-10-19 at 10:06 PM.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
    Pheonixis and Pokeadott - you guys continuously rally for these things:

    * Uncounterable (no counter play)
    * Untelegraphed (instant cast)
    * Free (no resource cost)

    These three things are actually hallmarks of poorly designed abilities or abilities which are trumping other ones. In general, abilities with these three qualities need to be:

    * Weak
    * Require Setup
    * Limited in Quantity

    My examples of problematic abilities in this space are:

    * Hammer of Justice - Free, 1 min cooldown ranged 5 sec stun.
    *** This was *the* paladin CC. Paladins then bitched they didn't have every other tool in the shed. Players fighting paladins in classic were constantly frustrated due to this ability.
    * Deep Freeze - short cooldown, 5 sec stun, requires frozen target.
    *** This was introduced and just a better version of HoJ. Totally lame.
    * Thunderstorm - PBAE, Instant Knockback
    *** This gave an instant AoE space builder, which shamans needed
    * Typhoon - Cone AoE Knockback
    *** This gave an already mobile spec an even more power space closer

    * Arcane Missiles - channeled rapid fire nuke
    *** This spell was a clear, well telegraphed shitload of damage, which could be stopped.
    * Arcane Blast
    *** This stacking damage spell doesn't have a missile and makes it very difficult to locate the caster in BGs. Consequentially, it became a spell with heavy ramp-up.

    My favorite examples of where the mechanic *could* be telegraphed but isn't:

    * Kidney Shot / Eviscerate

    These abilities actually require ramp-up and preparation, but because you don't see the # of combo points the rogue is building up on you, you can't see the attack is coming. In fact, this lack of visibility on abilities plagues rogue and warrior abilities.
    No, you misunderstand. It's not like we rally for things and want an OP class, we're aware of the situation, but the thing is that our CC was extremely cut down, and the costs don't equate to the benefits. Yes it takes ramp up for a rogue to get to 5 combo points, but does his finishing move cost him as much as our chaos bolt? Is Cataclysm better than Kidney Shot?
    We already talked about Blood Fear needing to go and being completely brainless and unskillful, at the expense of getting another CC. You said yourself that many warlocks were crying about not being able to do anything without Blood Fear. Why is that? Because they needed such an OP ability to try to be on par with others, except this ability wasn't used for the "right" purposes.
    I understand that you aspire for balance and equality, but that's not possible in the current incarnation of the game, especially when every class has so much selfhealing, CC, defense, burst, etc.. for free.
    Just think about it, everything we get others do but without the same pain. The problem is that we don't do better, we do as much. In the end you might think that abilities such as Deep Freeze or Death Coil are uncounterable, but they're not. It's all about anticipation and premeditation. I've personally never found Deep Freeze really OP because you knew when it would be applied, and could for example Nether Ward back in cata when you got frozen to take less damage. A good player doesn't just mindlessly throw these said uncounterable, free instant CCs in the air thinking "they can't do anything". If something would be uncounterable it would be BM's burst (which you've resolved and I thank you for that) or a warrior's shockwave to some extent (although you can avoid that too).
    I don't want my class to be FotM, I want it to be balanced and enjoyable. You never saw me QQ endlessly about Destruction's mechanics in Cataclysm, I actually praised them. I'm just saying what I think is apparent, and how it could be resolved. I didn't do a whole table of comparisons between all caster classes for nothing. In that I'd thought that you'd understand that I was decent and understandable, but from what I can see I must be the power crazed player that wants everything.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-19 at 10:26 PM ----------

    And just because something's a pain in the ass to set up or comes with massive drawbacks doesn't make its usage more skillful. Chaos Bolt, Dark Bargain and Blood Fear are all proof of that. It's just that it's more annoying to set them up, and they might be weaker in a way than other abilities. Doesn't mean that it's harder to use them/maximize their efficiency.
    Melee vs caster balance in WoD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9F0Ehgx_Q8

  5. #65
    Alright, we just had a huge meeting about Cataclysm. The argument was made that since you can already take an immortality talent, Destruction should not have a "you cannot die" button.

    Instead, Cataclysm will be reduced to a 3 sec channel, during which you are immune to all stuns, CC, crowd control, death grip, etc.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
    Alright, we just had a huge meeting about Cataclysm. The argument was made that since you can already take an immortality talent, Destruction should not have a "you cannot die" button.

    Instead, Cataclysm will be reduced to a 3 sec channel, during which you are immune to all stuns, CC, crowd control, death grip, etc.
    That sounds reasonable. That being said, what is Catacysm for? It's kind of meh as a CC because it's so easily avoidable (you can probably RP walk the 10 yards required not to be hit by it).

    I saw Catalcysm mostly as a "hey this warrior and pally just popped all CDs and went to town on me, I need something to get them off me NOW!" kind of cooldown. With this change (which is reasonable, I do not think destro needs a "you cannot die" button either), I'm confused about what Cataclysm is good for, then. Is it supposed to be a defensive tool? Like my partner is getting his teeth kicked in, I run in melee, stand close to him and use it to force everyone to back off? (I actually kind of like this usage, a lot) Or is it suposed to be some sort of CC so I can have more room to cast Chaos Bolts?

    If this is supposed to be actual CC (like fear, or any other) then I think it should involve some setup but be a true CC (as in no, you cannot RP walk away from it). Seeing that it costs an ember AND has a cooldown, it would be nice to see something like that.
    Last edited by Spektroman; 2012-10-20 at 01:27 AM.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Spektroman View Post
    That sounds reasonable. That being said, what is Catacysm for? It's kind of meh as a CC because it's so easily avoidable (you can probably RP walk the 10 yards required not to be hit by it).
    But doesn't that serve a purpose too? An enemy who drops everything to get out of range limits the effect, as a proper counter response should. However in exchange they had to stop their attack routine and spend time running away from you, which is still a positive effect.

    Against a careful foe it's area denial, forcing them to prioritize getting away from the effect. Against a sloppy foe it's a punishing knockback and AoE, with all sorts of benefits in battlegrounds with more varied terrain and big crowds to get lost in. And that's before you start planning teamwork combos, like Frost Nova or Gorefiend's Grasp, that limit escape options.

  8. #68
    lower the cast time to 2sec and i won't complain anymore about this spell

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirroth View Post
    But doesn't that serve a purpose too? An enemy who drops everything to get out of range limits the effect, as a proper counter response should. However in exchange they had to stop their attack routine and spend time running away from you, which is still a positive effect.

    Against a careful foe it's area denial, forcing them to prioritize getting away from the effect. Against a sloppy foe it's a punishing knockback and AoE, with all sorts of benefits in battlegrounds with more varied terrain and big crowds to get lost in. And that's before you start planning teamwork combos, like Frost Nova or Gorefiend's Grasp, that limit escape options.
    And how is that different from say, Shadowfury? Except of course it has twice the cooldown, costs an ember and can't be used offensively when going for a kill? At which point I'd rather have something different. I guess what I mean to say is, Cataclysm is a visually impressive ability with a long cooldown (as far as crowd control skills are concerned) that costs a resource that's difficult to earn.

    In order for something like that to be compelling enough to be worth push the button, what are the situations that the designer felt this spell should be appropriate to use? I can see the defensive nature of it of course. But most CCs are also used offensively, and that versatility is what makes them powerful. Is this meant to be purely a defense mechanism, or something that can be used offensively as well?

    If it's meant to be appropriately used for offense, then it's probably lacking a bit. If it's meant to be purely defensive, then the "you cannot die" part would be more important than the stun in my opinion.

    EDIT: And just as I write this, I realize I probably won't get an answer, because no matter what he designed it to do, they are probably planning on leaving it to us players to figure out how to make the best of it.

  10. #70
    It's kinda like a weak, PB version of Ring of Frost, that still leaves you open to being nuked by most classes. I would trade it for Howl of Terror or Death Coil in a heartbeat.

    I will burn your soul.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Supernex View Post
    It's kinda like a weak, PB version of Ring of Frost, that still leaves you open to being nuked by most classes. I would trade it for Howl of Terror or Death Coil in a heartbeat.
    Sorry but an uninterruptable 5 sec stun is insanely good.

    Force melee off your healer.
    Combine with spells like Repentance before bursting someone down without them able to avoid it.
    Actually get Immolate off vs a warrior.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Spektroman View Post
    And how is that different from say, Shadowfury? Except of course it has twice the cooldown, costs an ember and can't be used offensively when going for a kill? At which point I'd rather have something different.
    It's entirely different. Shadowfury is an instant cast AoE CC that increases in power when multiple enemies are grouped together. It can't be countered or avoided, it has offensive and defensive applications, and it fills a slot in the Warlock control arsenal very well. It's a completely different animal than a defensive tool like Cataclysm.

    So yes, Cataclysm isn't a very good tool to apply pressure control when going for a kill. It does a terrible job at that because that's not what it does. That's like complaining that Dark Bargain isn't as good a DPS cooldown as Dark Soul is.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Tya View Post
    Sorry but an uninterruptable 5 sec stun is insanely good.
    If you don't die before it gets off, and there is still some idiot actually standing in it, then then stun is nice, but likely to rarely ever actually happen. As soon as you cast it who ever was standing there will move, and the hunter/mage/warlock/priest/druid/dk/(and the remaining melee to a lesser extent) will be able to nuke you without having to worry about you doing anything about it at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tya View Post
    Force melee off your healer.
    Death Grip/Typhoon/Fear/Mortal Coil/Howl of Terror/etc, etc, etc. say "hi"...now your healer is no longer inside your very temporary "safe zone". Besides, they only need to avoid the very last second of Cata's 10yrd danger zone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tya View Post
    Combine with spells like Repentance before bursting someone down without them able to avoid it.
    CC spells like Repentance & Frost Nova break on damage, but there are a few CC that will be able to help you actually get some use out of the stun portion of Cataclysm. Very subpar on its own though, (especially in light of how Xel described it as being "the most OP spell ever" lol...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tya View Post
    Actually get Immolate off vs a warrior.
    Easy enough to do anyway, plus Immolate is weak as piss, (and wasting a shard to apply Immolate is lol...)

    I realize that it has some extremely niche uses, but it is hardly what Destro needed, and at the cost of a shard there are better uses 99% of the time.

    ----
    Edit: The only part that I am not disappointed with is the ability to cast while CC'ed. That part is nice, but the rest (including the graphic) is meh.
    Last edited by Supernex; 2012-10-20 at 03:41 AM.

    I will burn your soul.

  14. #74
    I'm going to avoid commenting on the power of the ability, since I've frankly not had much time to pvp with all the delicious pve content MOP gave us, but I'd at least like to give you a thumbs up for making something cool. You can tweak power later, but if a spell doesn't "fit" or isn't interesting, it doesn't matter how powerful or weak it is, it'll always feel crap. Cataclysm feels really unique and interesting in terms of what it does, so kudos on that Xel, though I dislike the name. Cata is the last thing I want to be reminded of.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Supernex View Post
    If you don't die before it gets off, and there is still some idiot actually standing in it, then then stun is nice, but likely to rarely ever actually happen. As soon as you cast it who ever was standing there will move, and the hunter/mage/warlock/priest/druid/dk/(and the remaining melee to a lesser extent) will be able to nuke you without having to worry about you doing anything about it at all.
    You seem to be COMPLETELY missing the part where you CAN NOT be killed while it is Channeling.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Asthreon View Post
    You seem to be COMPLETELY missing the part where you CAN NOT be killed while it is Channeling.
    Yes you can, that has already been confirmed by Xel just a few posts up:

    Quote Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
    Alright, we just had a huge meeting about Cataclysm. The argument was made that since you can already take an immortality talent, Destruction should not have a "you cannot die" button.

    Instead, Cataclysm will be reduced to a 3 sec channel, during which you are immune to all stuns, CC, crowd control, death grip, etc.

    I will burn your soul.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirroth View Post
    It's entirely different. Shadowfury is an instant cast AoE CC that increases in power when multiple enemies are grouped together. It can't be countered or avoided, it has offensive and defensive applications, and it fills a slot in the Warlock control arsenal very well. It's a completely different animal than a defensive tool like Cataclysm.

    So yes, Cataclysm isn't a very good tool to apply pressure control when going for a kill. It does a terrible job at that because that's not what it does. That's like complaining that Dark Bargain isn't as good a DPS cooldown as Dark Soul is.
    I think you misunderstood me. You pointed the very good defensive applications of Cataclysm (which I agree exist). Then I asked, why would I bother with Cataclysm (considering the ember cost and long cooldown) if I can accomplish the exact same goal through Shadowfury, and SF also helps me when I have to go for a kill?

    That's my point. If Cataclysm is meant to be a gimped Shadowfury (in the sense it only offers half of SF's utility), I'd rather have something else, in particular something that helps me get Chaos Bolts off, since that's what I have a hard time doing. In order for it to be usable, Cataclysm must offer something that I can't already get with the CC we have.

    To be 100% honest, I'd like unending resolve to be split into two separate spells, so I can get the silence immunity to cast my Chaos Bolts without also giving up the damage reduction cooldown. That sounds a lot more useful than Cataclysm. I guess I just don't get why should we get a spell that's ultimately trying to accomplish something we already do well through another skill.

  18. #78
    3 seconds of self-CC to get off a cast that you can't juke. Think about it for a second. Begin cata cast - 3 second time bomb, large graphic indicating your safe zone, meant as a theoretical melee deterrent I think.

    vs...

    Rogue: Rogue DPS's you for 2 free seconds, pops cloak as cata goes off because he knows you can't juke it. His 1 mind CD easily and completely counters our 1 min CD.

    DK: DK DPS's you for 2 free seconds, pops AMS as cata goes off because he knows you can't juke it. His 45 sec CD easily and completely counters our 1 min CD.

    Warrior: War DPS's you for 2 free seconds, leaps and charges as cata goes off. His 45 sec CD easily and completely counters our 1 min CD.

    Ret/Feral: they actually need to run for a bit! But thanks to ret sprint + feral baseline speed, they are right back on us just as cata goes off. We won't even have time for a Fear before they can Rebuke/Skullbash it.

    Any player with a brain but no CD to counter it: Press 'W' for 2 seconds, wait 1 second, press 'W' for 2 seconds. Outplayed!

    etc etc etc.

    ....

    What is the point of this spell? You can't give it so many restrictions and easy counters and expect us to not bash it. There's a difference between allowing for counters (ie fake-casting vs interrupts) and Cata with its neon sign with a countdown clock on it.

    Nerf the hell out of its effect and make it instant cast or something reasonable to use - as is, it's next to useless. Look at capacitor totem, which is meh btw, and explain to me why you want to give us a worse version of it? The shaman doesn't cc himself and he can drop it from range with a talent or he can root->totem and it's still only a so/so ability! We get a ghetto version of it without any set-up tool. Please stop designing locks by a different set of rules than other classes. Arggh!!!!
    Last edited by pokeadott; 2012-10-20 at 05:13 AM.

  19. #79
    Give it a 20yrd range instead of applying immolate why not just do 1 sec ticks that deal around half the damage of incinerate let it be boosted by Mannoroth's fury and mastery seems hell of a lot better. Another idea is instead of costing an ember let it do its damage still but generate embers per target hit 1 per hit 2 per crit easy ember builder.

  20. #80
    I'd like to know how all the points that I've listed aren't valid. At least tell why am I wrong on most of my points.
    Last edited by Phoenexis; 2012-10-20 at 08:01 AM.
    Melee vs caster balance in WoD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9F0Ehgx_Q8

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