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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    What about the fact that it makes you immune to death
    In which case it wouldn't really matter if you had a glyph to remove the knockback (unless you're dying alot on dungeon trash mobs?).

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Grubjuice View Post
    that's probably is only substantive use in PvE, it will be a manually activated Cheat Death, great for moments when you can see that some boss attack is about to one shot you, Which happens often enough in raids, but not all the time and not in every encounter.
    I know it's situational but I'm saying that people who argue that it is literally never going to be used at all are kidding themselves, even if it is a manually activated button a complete immunity to killing blows on a 60 second cooldown is incredible utility.

    Netherspark you said yourself "there is no reason people will want to cast this outside that [knockback/stun] situation", which is clearly wrong.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    Netherspark you said yourself "there is no reason people will want to cast this outside that [knockback/stun] situation", which is clearly wrong.
    If you had read the rest of the page it would be clear I was speaking in reference to DPS situations. It could have been clearer, yes, but I was replying to the guy who claimed people would be using it for DPS.

  4. #44
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    actually a glyph that removes the knockback AND increases the channeling time by 1 or 2 seconds would increase it's viablility as a survival tool in pve by increasing the no-kill window and preventing the knock back from pushing mobs into unaggroed packs,

    it really has no role as a dps tool in either pve or pvp,

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Grubjuice View Post
    actually a glyph that removes the knockback AND increases the channeling time by 1 or 2 seconds would increase it's viablility as a survival tool in pve by increasing the no-kill window and preventing the knock back from pushing mobs into unaggroed packs,
    I don't see the point really. How often do you think people will be dying to trash mobs? I think that may end up being overpowered anyway. In fact I personally doubt the death prevention will make it to live.

  6. #46
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    well xelnath did say he would make the ability overpowered first and nerf down from there. rather than make it underpowered and buff it

    unfortuantely it's still too buggy to determine what is OP about it and what is useful about it.

    maybe it instead of doing damage or channeling, it was just an instant knockback and stun (thunderstorm+stun) on a 1 minute cooldown. Glyphed it would no longer cost an ember but it could only affect a single target.

    That would make it a kill window opener that PvP player crave so much, and if it does not damage and costs an ember PvE players will avoid it except when they get rushed by trash.
    Last edited by Grubjuice; 2012-10-19 at 02:35 PM.

  7. #47
    Cataclysm applies a full-duration Immolate to every enemy in range (though, it does not refresh Immo). Also, the applied Immo is double-dipping on Mastery since Cata is an ember-consuming spell, though I'm not sure that's intentional. I can also confirm that it is benefiting from MF, even though the graphics don't change to cover a larger area.

    Also, Cata can be used while CC'd.

  8. #48
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    oh very interesting,

    somehow i think double dipping the damage of Immolate is not intended, but maybe it its, , ,

    it seems like the application of Immolate by Cataclym IS supposed to benefit of MF and the Stun effect of cataclysm is supposed to NOT benefit from MF,

    that is consistant with FnB benefitting from MF and Shadowfury not benefitting.
    Last edited by Grubjuice; 2012-10-19 at 02:39 PM.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Grubjuice View Post
    actually a glyph that removes the knockback AND increases the channeling time by 1 or 2 seconds would increase it's viablility as a survival tool in pve by increasing the no-kill window and preventing the knock back from pushing mobs into unaggroed packs,

    it really has no role as a dps tool in either pve or pvp,
    OR instead of reducing / increasing channeling time , they'd increase the cooldown = ownd ^_~

    Also, Cata can be used while CC'd.
    O.o ok, this is officially an oh shit button, forget about opening windows.
    Last edited by wholol; 2012-10-19 at 02:51 PM.

  10. #50
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    well then it is what it is.
    I know it's not what you want Wholol.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Grubjuice View Post
    well then it is what it is.
    I know it's not what you want Wholol.
    well , I'm not exactly sad about it, it's just that I was expecting ...something else so to say.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by wholol View Post
    Also, Cata can be used while CC'd.


    O.o ok, this is officially an oh shit button, forget about opening windows.

    Yup. It's OP as a defensive and poor as a CC. The last thing locks need is another powerful defensive button, but we do need some better CC to allow dps windows. This is kind of the opposite of what it should be.

  13. #53
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    ohthat's right it's Pokeadott who wants the some sort of single target root/disorient/stun as a CB window opener.

    which, yes, i aggree, we do need one, Pokeadott.

    Glyph of conflagrate should make conflagrate a disorient/root at the cost of a single charge, or something

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Grubjuice View Post
    ohthat's right it's Pokeadott who wants the some sort of single target root/disorient/stun as a CB window opener.

    which, yes, i aggree, we do need one, Pokeadott.

    Glyph of conflagrate should make conflagrate a disorient/root at the cost of a single charge, or something
    Have posted that a couple times :P But aside from what I want, the spell is really over the top as a personal defensive CD atm - it's definitely not going live like that. It will get nerfed eventually. I don't want the lack-luster CC portion to be all we're left with at the end. I also don't want a giant stun, because the game has enough of those as is. And they seem to come attached to giant CD's/Cast times/etc in Xel's mind. I really don't need an AoE stun with huge costs. Root/Knockback/Disorient are all less powerful, but still give us a tool we can use as a peel or offensively. They are also a lot cheaper when it comes to CD, cast time, etc.

    In general, if you forget the defensive part of the spell, which is OP - just compare it baseline to Capacitor Totem. It's pretty much identical except you CC yourself while it charges and you can't talent into being able to drop it from range as it's about ot fire. For those of you that have played Shamie teams, have you really felt that Capacitor Totem was this unbelievable CC? It's not bad, not great. Every shaman in their right mind would trade it for an instant, single target Stun alla HoJ.

    Crazy long activation time abilities have no place in pvp. They just don't work.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by pokeadott View Post
    Yup. It's OP as a defensive and poor as a CC. The last thing locks need is another powerful defensive button, but we do need some better CC to allow dps windows. This is kind of the opposite of what it should be.
    Explain how a channeled 4 second death immunity is OP.

    It's literally 4 seconds where you can be brought down to 1HP and killed immediately afterward, meanwhile you're channeling a 10 yard Immolate so you can't effectively use that time to heal, set up CC or run away. It's more of a perk that insures the spell gets off regardless to whether it hits anyone or not and really not a defense outside of 4 seconds for a healer to get a heal on you.

    Passives like Cheat Death and Cauterize are defensive abilities, stunning/rooting yourself for 4 seconds where you can't drop below 1, is a mild perk. It seems like an answer for getting trained in Arena and that's about it.
    Last edited by jackvii; 2012-10-19 at 05:24 PM.

  16. #56
    Why should we sacrifice our only snare for a CC? No, we need an additional CC. Baseline Deathcoil for all specs seems great, and Destruction should just get back the CC it used to have in Cataclysm. Problem solved?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nivrax View Post
    You may be on to something here... GC claimed Ret Paladins killed his parents. Could it be that Warlocks drained Celas' dog soul?

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Netherspark View Post
    The visual needs a bit more... oomph! If it's going to knockback it needs some sort of explosion at the end.
    THIS!! The fire part at the beginning (causing Immolate to be applied) looks alright, but the explosion (lol, looks horrible...just incredibly horrible) needs to actually look like an explosion, you know, something that looks like it might actually cause a knockback...

    #Iamdisappoint.
    Last edited by Supernex; 2012-10-19 at 06:16 PM.

    I will burn your soul.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by jackvii View Post
    Explain how a channeled 4 second death immunity is OP.
    Because I can pop it when my healer is CC'ed, and he can heal me up if he gets out before the 4sec window closes. This can happen every minute. It's extremely strong. It also means I have it up any time the other team pops CDs. Mage icey veins shattering while healer is blanketed? NP - cata. Warr/Rogue popping reck/bomb? Np - cata.

    It's absurdly powerful as a self CD. It's not cheat death, but it is usable while CC'ed so it's not hard to get off. It's also not our only defensive. We are going to be way too hard to kill.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by pokeadott View Post
    Because I can pop it when my healer is CC'ed, and he can heal me up if he gets out before the 4sec window closes. This can happen every minute. It's extremely strong. It also means I have it up any time the other team pops CDs. Mage icey veins shattering while healer is blanketed? NP - cata. Warr/Rogue popping reck/bomb? Np - cata.
    So a four second extension before death on Arenas is OP.

    Kind of makes up for the fact that in the other 90% of the game that bonus isn't very useful aside from getting an immolate on something before you die.

  20. #60
    Pheonixis and Pokeadott - you guys continuously rally for these things:

    * Uncounterable (no counter play)
    * Untelegraphed (instant cast)
    * Free (no resource cost)

    These three things are actually hallmarks of poorly designed abilities or abilities which are trumping other ones. In general, abilities with these three qualities need to be:

    * Weak
    * Require Setup
    * Limited in Quantity

    My examples of problematic abilities in this space are:

    * Hammer of Justice - Free, 1 min cooldown ranged 5 sec stun.
    *** This was *the* paladin CC. Paladins then bitched they didn't have every other tool in the shed. Players fighting paladins in classic were constantly frustrated due to this ability.
    * Deep Freeze - short cooldown, 5 sec stun, requires frozen target.
    *** This was introduced and just a better version of HoJ. Totally lame.
    * Thunderstorm - PBAE, Instant Knockback
    *** This gave an instant AoE space builder, which shamans needed
    * Typhoon - Cone AoE Knockback
    *** This gave an already mobile spec an even more power space closer

    * Arcane Missiles - channeled rapid fire nuke
    *** This spell was a clear, well telegraphed shitload of damage, which could be stopped.
    * Arcane Blast
    *** This stacking damage spell doesn't have a missile and makes it very difficult to locate the caster in BGs. Consequentially, it became a spell with heavy ramp-up.

    My favorite examples of where the mechanic *could* be telegraphed but isn't:

    * Kidney Shot / Eviscerate

    These abilities actually require ramp-up and preparation, but because you don't see the # of combo points the rogue is building up on you, you can't see the attack is coming. In fact, this lack of visibility on abilities plagues rogue and warrior abilities.

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